To EQ or not to EQ

[BIGHMW]

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?act=P...amp;qpid=119339

It sounds like to me with the EQ setting that you were using , that you have Damaged Hearing. Eq set at that level only introduces Distortion and Noise into the signal Path . I am an Audio Engineer and I very Rarely even turn the Megabass on much less all the way up . When you crank up the levels on the EQ you KILL the Headroom of the output amplifier that drives the phones.

I have worked with the Sony MP3056 mixing board ( do some research ) and every other piece of gear out there , I think your review needs to be revised.

I just now de-tweeked all the EQ's on all of my units, (including both my cars and the home theatre, my AK47 hustle bag and my preferred setup with the MZ-NH700) and just simply turned up the volume.... it sounds just as great straight as it did with the EQ at a lesser volume, thanks dude.

There INDEED is more headroom and detail on the music with the EQ off and the volume up as opposed to having the EQ settings at such a high level, but maybe it is time to invest in a headphone amp so I can enjoy straight non-EQ'ed music at a louder volume, something like this:

http://www.Electric-Avenues.com

[greenmachine]

It's ok to compensate for the peculiarities of the human hearing apparatus, which is less sensitive for very low and high frequencies at lower volumes. At higher volumes, usually no "loudness effect" is needed. Also, no headphone or loudspeaker reproduces perfectly linearly, so it might need some correction as well. Higher end gear usually requires less correction than lower end gear. Also, there is individual listening taste/ability, which may require correction as well.

Use whatever sounds good to you, just don't assume it will sound good to everyone.

[rayzray]

edited..

Edited April 4, 2007 by rayzray

[Strungup]

EQ;; all the way!! i NEVER listen to anything straight..

playing with the EQ is like having French Dressing one night;; and Russian the other;; and bacon bits in the third..

do yous EVER eat a salad "straight" and without the "Twists"..!!

every band in the whole world sounds different in different venues;; and god invented EQ to correct this.. i think he invented it midnight of the 7th day..

i can tell right away when the EQ is changed;; but then like to "Play with it" ?? a bit..

you even answered your own question by saying high end and low end units SOUND defferent;; like (that IS "NEED" of an EQ at it's best)..

Virtual Surround is my favorite;; although i refuse to buy ANY surround sound system;; it would crock my intellegence.. (sp)..

ALL my many many stereo units in my house all have their EQ's on;; as does by "Bedroom set" with "Double EQ',, the Hi-MD900 on Virtual Surround and the JVC 5 CD/DVD changer unit on "Hall".. with a different set of buds or headphones alternating on odd and even days..

Ray the issue is this Guy is doing the recording for OTHER people to listen to , he needs a Flat but slightly taylored response to what He is Producing, Otherwise there would be No consistancy in his PRODUCT , it is fine if you EQ your own stuff, but that isnt what this debate was about . He Owns a recording company , and is Producing a Product. That Product needs to Be consistant . "Not an A LA Carte" menu dude.We dony want any Bacon buts on this stuff.

I Think he has a good appreciation for what I discussed with him in another forum.

The Idea of Studio Recording , is that YOU WANT to hear the mistakes , YOU WANT to hear linear Flat response ,You WANT to be able to identify the Transients , and be able to smooth things out for proper finalization. With TONS of EQ , that isnt what you hear .

The Idea of EQing in a studio is to CUT generally no so much Adding,

Edited April 4, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[BIGHMW]

Ray the issue is this Guy is doing the recording for OTHER people to listen to , he needs a Flat but slightly taylored response to what He is Producing, Otherwise there would be No consistancy in his PRODUCT , it is fine if you EQ your own stuff, but that isnt what this debate was about . He Owns a recording company , and is Producing a Product. That Product needs to Be consistant . "Not an A LA Carte" menu dude.We dony want any Bacon buts on this stuff.

I Think he has a good appreciation for what I discussed with him in another forum.

The Idea of Studio Recording , is that YOU WANT to hear the mistakes , YOU WANT to hear linear Flat response ,You WANT to be able to identify the Transients , and be able to smooth things out for proper finalization. With TONS of EQ , that isnt what you hear .

The Idea of EQing in a studio is to CUT generally no so much Adding,

In other words, record, produce, and monitor with straight sound in the studio, then tweek the EQ to your preference when listening to it on your Walkman, but certainly not while recording/mixing/mastering, as EQ settings vary from unit-to-unit.

Your knowledge will definitly help me on my next project, whether it be as gangsta-rapper AK47 or messing around with another genre or project is up to me, but, it WILL be mixed straight, everything else I have ever cut in my 13-year career has, so I will stick to it.

BTW, I do NOT use any EQ-ing in either HMW Studio One or on my home theatre, as I have SRS-Z750 speakers and MDR-V300 cans in the studio as monitors, and vintage circa-1980's Pioneer 15" 3-way systems on my home theatre, I save the EQ's for Walkman use ONLY, as some setups (unit/phones/EQ-ing) do vary.

[King Ghidora]

An EQ for a home stereo or a car stereo is for correcting flaws in the speakers or speaker placement IMO. An EQ used in recording is very, very different. You're trying to capture the exact sound that you want even if it's from an acoustic instrument. It's been my experience that you cause a lot more problems than you solve by using EQ in the recording process. Mic placement is much more important IMO. It's a real challenge to make an acoustic instrument sound more realistic by using an electronic amplifier (which is essentially what an EQ does though it only amplifies at line level). It's very easy to introduce artifacts into your recording by doing this.

I do occasionally try to use an EQ while working with stuff that I've recorded but it's almost always while mastering and not while recording. If you don't have the right equipment to get the correct sound when you record your chances of fixing it by using a EQ are almost nil. When I try to use EQ in mastering it's more about getting the right blend of sounds and it's practically always a cut of the signal instead of a boost and then it's always very small adjustments. If I did more multi-track recording I would consider using an EQ more in mastering but it would still be small adjustments.

Mixing for a live band is of course a totally different thing and again this is more about getting a smooth and proper sound level for the different instruments, compensating for bad acoustics, speaker flaws, and at times to keep less talented band members from dominating the sound (oops I hope none of my friends read this ). You're sculpting the sound in this situation and you don't have a bunch of tries to get it right. It takes considerable practice to even come close to getting it right IMO. It takes a knowledge of what the music should sound like and how to get it to sound that way. It varies a lot from one type of music to another.

In the end mixing a live setup will definitely affect the end product if you happen to be recording that event. But I consider that recording what the audience is supposed to hear. IMO that's what recording a live event should be about. I have heard recordings where talented people record tracks to add to a live recording that had flaws. Sometimes this works but usually it's very noticeable what was done. A very good example of this would be Badfinger's "Live -Day By Day" where a percussion track was added because it just didn't show up well on the original plus the bass was altered at times I believe and some background vocals were added. Someone knew what they were doing when they put all that together because they had to mask the original percussion and bass tracks to make it work. I'm not that talented personally so I would never even try something that ambitious but it certainly worked for them.

[Strungup]

Very well said King . It tells me that you do have some experience , which raises the level of conversation that I would personally have with you , speaking to someone who doesnt understand those basic tenents about those things , is a lost cause.

which is why I posted the Home Recording Guide, on the other topic area.

[King Ghidora]

Very well said King . It tells me that you do have some experience , which raises the level of conversation that I would personally have with you , speaking to someone who doesnt understand those basic tenents about those things , is a lost cause.

which is why I posted the Home Recording Guide, on the other topic area.

Thanks for the compliment Guitarfxr. I guess I've been around this sort of thing all my life. So I would have to be pretty stupid not to have learned something along the way. I was close to a lot of musicians playing everything from garage band rock to roadhouse rock to gospel to c&w to bluegrass to r&b to jazz and even some marching band stuff. It was important to the people I grew up with and their parents too. Some of the most talented musicians I've ever heard played at the 3 day beer bash and frog leg fry scene I went to about 500 times as a kid. Plus my mother ran a roadhouse where a lot of bands played at one time. And I was in a garage band or two for a while myself.

But usually I was the sound guy for most of my friends. I still do it I guess. I even turned down an offer to run a recording studio for a promoter who was booking bands in Vegas and Atlantic City back in the early 80's. Those bands were the right on the verge of making it type bands. But I had other things I was doing so I turned it down. Plus I was involved in the sound setup for a local church that brought in some really good bands all the time. Some of those people went on to the big time in fact. Because it was a church they let me record their stuff because they thought they could trust me when I said I wouldn't try to profit from it in any way. It was all about making tapes for people who couldn't make it to church.

So yeah I've been around it a lot in my life but I've never really done anything big. I did help record a bluegrass band that was being played a lot on the local radio station and could have went on tour if they had chosen to do it. I was their sound guy when they played live too. That's about as close as I got to getting to do something big I guess. I still work with that band in fact but they aren't nearly as serious about it now.

None of this is a replacement for the kind of training and experience you've had though. I'm basically just a roadie type of a guy who learned by wiring things up myself. If I die my wife will never even be able to turn on the stereo in my house if you know what I mean.

Edited April 5, 2007 by King Ghidora

[Strungup]

I have one of those ! The wife that is , LOL

I luv Bluegrass, Especially like that fact that there has been a resurgance ,albiet a different form the " Newgrass" but a lot of it reaches back to roots . NickelCreek , and the like ,younger groups keeping it open for the rest of the world . It is really funny to watch the face of a "metal shredder" get a few beers in him at a GOOd bluegrass festival ,and then suddenly realize that he is listening to some REALLY GOOD musicians. I have had that experience on more than a few occasions , and was dumb enough to forget the camera

TC

[rayzray]

i like this thread even tho i responded wrongly and deleted it;; yes;; i didn't do my homework;; i didn't READ the "link" provided on the first post..

but,, then;; i don't DO links;; it was up to yous to put the facts on the line..

won't those links eventually get lost;; and then the archives would be useless..

anyways;; good reading..

yes;; i'm no pro,, but i've been around;; i prefer doing things half-a**es and being happy than doing things right and having "resposibility" and PRESSURE..

so,, to get OT::

so,, i was going to the bathroom today and the doorbell rang;; it was the Cable repair guy (not THe Cable Guy) from the movie..

he fixed what was wrong;; (i dudda done it,, but it's their job)..

so he spots my Pianos/keyboards/synths;; and asks "are u a musician"??

then i show him my Studio and he get's EXCITED;; he wanted to know if i could record him and put it on CD..

then,, i remembered "This Thread" and realized that he was better off in a REAL recording studio;; and i quoted stuff off this thread from yous guys..

so,, he will continue to finish his CD in that recording studio;; but he asked me to "Play the keyboards/Piano" on his songs!!!!

i will do it for free;; i concidered that a compliment;; (he was impressed with my playing) i was playing Jimmy Smith stuff and "misty" swing style..

so,, moral of the story;; yous guys are right;; i don't belong here..

[rayzray]

I have one of those ! The wife that is , LOL

......get a few beers in him at a GOOd bluegrass festival ,and then suddenly realize that he is listening to some REALLY GOOD musicians. I have had that experience on more than a few occasions , and was dumb enough to forget the camera

TC

i never needed "Beer" or ANYTHING else to do great solos ;; all i needed was a crowd and to go into my "hypnotic trances"..

fortunately;; after my father dies;; i found a LOT of VCR tapes that he recorded me while i was IN these hypnotic trances;; and after viewing them;; i couldn't believe i could actually "Play" like that..

now,, to get these on CD's and DVD's with "YOUR" technology;; and not mine;; would be a great thing..

i just have to time;; so the VCR tapes get older and brittler..

Question;; how many years would have to go by for these tapes to be useless to make decent DVD's/CD's (your way)..

ps;; wives have to be trained;; just like they "Think" they are training us;; it's like a "Double-Agent" type of thing..

Edited April 5, 2007 by rayzray

[Strungup]

i never needed "Beer" or ANYTHING else to do great solos ;; all i needed was a crowd and to go into my "hypnotic trances"..

fortunately;; after my father dies;; i found a LOT of VCR tapes that he recorded me while i was IN these hypnotic trances;; and after viewing them;; i couldn't believe i could actually "Play" like that..

now,, to get these on CD's and DVD's with "YOUR" technology;; and not mine;; would be a great thing..

i just have to time;; so the VCR tapes get older and brittler..

Question;; how many years would have to go by for these tapes to be useless to make decent DVD's/CD's (your way)..

ps;; wives have to be trained;; just like they "Think" they are training us;; it's like a "Double-Agent" type of thing..

LOL , I have a few freinds here in Japan set up to transfer VHS to DVD , with full mixing board and mastering utilities( 24 channel board , proccessors etc. ) How many tapes , how much you willing to compensate me . ( They would not be copied or released here ) I could strip the audio , into a seperate file , then remaster the audio, not much you can do about Video , subtle enhancements but What was originally recorded , without major studio gear , is pretty much what youve got. Audio I can fix.

[rayzray]

LOL , I have a few freinds here in Japan set up to transfer VHS to DVD , with full mixing board and mastering utilities( 24 channel board , proccessors etc. ) How many tapes , how much you willing to compensate me . ( They would not be copied or released here ) I could strip the audio , into a seperate file , then remaster the audio, not much you can do about Video , subtle enhancements but What was originally recorded , without major studio gear , is pretty much what youve got. Audio I can fix.

too many VCR tapes;; too much "info";; but ,, very tempting..

i know what would happen;; your friends would sell my "personality on stage" to a TV company and "Make a Killing" over my Rants and just "Ball Raising" tacticks.. (sp)..

i already bought a few thousand dollars of gear (including MD-Decks) to do this;; i just end up doing everything for everyone else..

the difference between yours and the Board members' world and mine is;; i do every thin "half-A**ed" and great;; any yous do everything "the right way"..

yous win;; but,, i an the happiest..

ps;; i still am contemplating your request for those batteries for Stevie Ray;; like it's not the money;; it's the pressure and anxiety and responsibility !!

Edited April 6, 2007 by rayzray

[Strungup]

too many VCR tapes;; too much "info";; but ,, very tempting..

i know what would happen;; your friends would sell my "personality on stage" to a TV company and "Make a Killing" over my Rants and just "Ball Raising" tacticks.. (sp)..

i already bought a few thousand dollars of gear (including MD-Decks) to do this;; i just end up doing everything for everyone else..

the difference between yours and the Board members' world and mine is;; i do every thin "half-A**ed" and great;; any yous do everything "the right way"..

yous win;; but,, i an the happiest..

ps;; i still am contemplating your request for those batteries for Stevie Ray;; like it's not the money;; it's the pressure and anxiety and responsibility !!

If your on High speed net , I could convert the Stevie files to Wave Files the send em over the net , then you could burn em to disc or MD or whatever and not worry bout shipping , ( just would be neat if you could teleport the batteries!!!!!)

[rayzray]

well,, you don't have to do that ;; i HATE downloading;; i hate my PC's;; and it sounds too complicated..

i rather DO "Hard-to-touch" stuff;; stuff i can "pick up";; stuff i can throw away or keep..

i even like to "Hammer" some stuff;;

like how far is Japan from here;; why didn't the "Around the World in 80 Minutes" MD ever make it back from Japan??

Edited April 6, 2007 by rayzray

[King Ghidora]

I have one of those ! The wife that is , LOL

I luv Bluegrass, Especially like that fact that there has been a resurgance ,albiet a different form the " Newgrass" but a lot of it reaches back to roots . NickelCreek , and the like ,younger groups keeping it open for the rest of the world . It is really funny to watch the face of a "metal shredder" get a few beers in him at a GOOd bluegrass festival ,and then suddenly realize that he is listening to some REALLY GOOD musicians. I have had that experience on more than a few occasions , and was dumb enough to forget the camera

TC

Yeah metal heads think their music takes talent to play and it does to do it really well. But a really good bluegrass picker is actually playing stuff that is much more complicated to play. It just doesn't have the bells and whistles.

I like both if they're done well. Nickel Creek is really good. My brother's brother in law (Ned Crisp) has a band that ships a lot of bluegrass CD's to Japan believe it or not. Bluegrass has quite a following there. The name of his band is Bottom Line. That isn't the band I work with though I'm thinking about pitching a video project to them. The band I work with used to be called Kentucky Blue. Another band stole their name after they broke up back in the early 1980's obviously to capitalize on the success they had already achieved. The second band wasn't nearly as good as the original but they were more dedicated to actually producing albums and they had a few bluegrass hits. I sent their manager a news clipping of the original band dated before their band ever formed but of course he wouldn't acknowledge that he had ever heard of them. Yeah right. He wasn't listening to the biggest bluegrass show in 3 states hearing their stuff being played all the time.

But we just do this for our own enjoyment really. I do play the guitar but not nearly as well as I play keyboards so I pretty much stick to recording. Keyboards and bluegrass don't mix so well.

I've been listening to America's Bluegrass Band recently. I love the stuff they do. It's a band that was just put together for one CD. Don Rigsby, Melvin Goins and Ernie Thacker are in it. They play the songs I remember my dad singing when he was in a bluegrass gospel group about 45 years ago. I guess I live right in the middle of bluegrass country. I've loved it since I can remember even when almost everyone thought it was old hat including my parent's generation. They mostly listened to honky tonk country after the early 60's when they thought rock and roll became too out there. But there was a guy that played it extremely well that I knew and he would always play it at those beer bashes even though it seemed like I was the only one that really wanted to hear it. Later on people treated that guy like a legend. The local university made him a cultural icon for our region and for good reason IMO. I'm still good friends with his kids one of which played with Bobby Bare for many years.

You can hear a couple of samples of the sessions I record here and here. You might want to keep in mind that these were practice sessions and I didn't try to push the signal as high as I could have because I wasn't after a perfect recording. I just wanted something they could use to practice with at home so I didn't want any distortion from recording too hot. We have been getting the signal hotter lately because they're starting to want something to keep. They play more of a new grass type music. They called it acid grass at one time (I know that's not an original term). I like the stuff they do and I like the traditional stuff too.

[Strungup]

shhhhhhhh Timothy Leary might hear you !!!

[King Ghidora]

If someone dug him up maybe. I don't think he can hear things in this world too well where he's at.