Hi-MD reliability?

[Le Chiffre]

I was planning on picking up a Sony MZ-RH1 Hi-MD recorder to use as a general purpose and field recorder. The interface seems a little better than most of these pocket-sized memory card recorders that have recently flooded the market, and I figured that since it's been around a few years, the bugs must have been worked out and Hi-MD must now be a mature and robust technology.

But then I was reading the reviews on Amazon and came across this:

http://www.amazon.com/review/R3UB18DVJ9EWR...#wasThisHelpful

Are the negative comments in the review and replies true? I was planning on dumping most of the recordings I made on the Hi-MD to CD-R/DVD-R via the computer anyways, but considering how much audio one can store on a Hi-MD disc, I don't want to take any chances. I assumed that if nothing else, Hi-MD was a reliable and idiot-proof technology. Was I wrong?

Also, what is the current status of Hi-MD? Is Sony phasing this technology out?

Would I be better off buying one of the memory card recorders than a Hi-MD recorder at this point?

[sfbp]

I was reading the reviews on Amazon and came across this:

http://www.amazon.com/review/R3UB18DVJ9EWR...#wasThisHelpful

Are the negative comments in the review and replies true?

I think the last comment (about flushing the disk) is right on the money. The technology seems pretty reliable, and although SS is a bit "idiosyncratic" in the end it delivers most of what you want given the restrictions (mostly gone) that Sony placed on its designers. Sure, if they could have delivered DRM-free management right at the start, things would have been better. But SS does work with all USB-capable minidisc devices.

[Russell Letson]

I'm not about to contradict reports of problems with SS or even with MD hardware, but I've been using the standard and H-MD tech for field recording (music and interviews) since the B-3 with very good results. I have to say, though, that if I were starting from scratch today, I would almost certainly wind up with one of the newest generation of solid-state recorders--in fact, I'm mightily tempted by the Olympus LS-10 and the Sony PD-M50 despite owning more than a half-dozen MD/Hi-MD units. There remain environments in which anything with moving parts is going to be at risk, and the memory cards keep getting cheaper. Then there's the fact that Sony is almost certainly not going to keep supporting MD indefinitely, so at some point I'm going to have to migrate anyway. But I still use my B100 and RH1s, and they still work.

[Syrius]

For being units with mobile parts, many MD players and recorders are solidly built, and units well-taken care of have been working flawlessly for years.

[sfbp]

The other plus on MD seems (to me) the consistency of the manufacture of the play/recording assembly. Touch wood, I have yet to see a disc recorded in one unit that would not behave perfectly in another (assuming it was supposed to be able to play it!). As long as Sony makes at least ONE device that does everything, all existing owners should be happy.

[1kyle]

The other plus on MD seems (to me) the consistency of the manufacture of the play/recording assembly. Touch wood, I have yet to see a disc recorded in one unit that would not behave perfectly in another (assuming it was supposed to be able to play it!). As long as Sony makes at least ONE device that does everything, all existing owners should be happy.

I've had several (and still have) at least 3 generations of MD recorders. ALL except one have worked flawlessly over the years (I'm a Pro photographer and have taken these machines into some rough areas on assignments).

The only ONE unit which was an absolute dog was the RH10 --this came actually with quite a nice 5 / 6 line screen - however manufacture was of poor quality, screen easily scratchable and the battery lid door was so bad that it invariably broke (even with careful handling) after changing batteries 2 or 3 times.

All in all apart from the RH10 I would say don't worry about the reliability both from a mecahnical and an electrical point of view.

The RH1 (current unit) is an absolute 100% WINNER -- I've dropped this on numerous occasion, it's been through security nighmares at airports etc etc --still works like a dog.

I've now got 3 of these units -- they are available but don't seem to be getting any easier to find -- I might get another 2 just in case.

I intend to go on using the MD format for YEARS yet whatever sony say or do.

Whilst if all you are looking for is a pure music playback machine there are now other and probably easier options but the MD - especially if you use 1GB discs is still amazingly flexible even for a music player now it can play MP3 tracks.

SS -- at least the latest version is not such a bad tool, and the latest SONY Conversion tool ATRAC-MP3 works better making music files more interchangeable between devices.

Actually using SS to Rip CD's to ATRAC LOSSLESS (don't save as a lossy format especially when you want to do further conversions) and then convert to MP3's is fine since you can store the MP3 files on a different disc and you get all the track / album info which is generally a bit "iffy" when using say an open source LAME MP3 converter and the freedb music database to get music info.

A 1GB MD disc will contain around 7 - 8 hours worth of music recorded at 256 / 320 and a lot more if it sounds OK for you at 192 or even 128.

I find the large capacity ipods etc a real pain to manage -- just take 2 or 3 discs -- thats around 20 hours of music --should be enough for even those who never take of their headphones except when going to bed.

Note also that with MD you have unlimited storage and "redundancy" -- if a unit breaks you can still use the recording on another unit.

Solid state devices are fine but what happens when a) the memory becomes full

the device gets broken

c) the device gets stolen.

If you are making one-off recordings that you can delete and will never be archived then solid state recording might be the way to go but MD's are fine. You can copy recordings easily enough and provided someone else has a player --no problem.

It's much more difficult sharing recordings made on a portable solid state device.

Memory cards also whilst getting cheaper all the time are a real "dog" to organize and store in an archive library.

MD's represent just about the perfect size between convenience and practicality.

Cheers

-K

Edited June 21, 2008 by 1kyle

[sfbp]

Thanks for the pointer to the utility, I had no idea it was there.

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/swu-download.pl?upd_id=2971

I have something I got as part of my Nero License but it is a bit of a hassle to use, except for one occasional file at a time.

I concur with all your comments about needing to buy enough gear to keep using MD. I have only 2 HiMD's, and I keep the RH1 for things that only it can do - if it ever shows signs of unreliability then time to get another.

But you're talking to someone who recently revived his 1975 Beocord 1600, heheh.

[Le Chiffre]

Then there's the fact that Sony is almost certainly not going to keep supporting MD indefinitely, so at some point I'm going to have to migrate anyway.

I don't agree with this argument. Any device which uses a memory card is going to be as transient if not more so than MD. Just try to find a memory card for a device that's older than 4 years old. Though I think the days of MD are probably numbered at this point, people have been predicting the format's demise since it first came out in the 90's, and yet here it still is, and seemingly better than ever, having addressed almost every single complaint that was ever leveled against it. I figure as long as you have a device that lets you offload to a computer in better than real time, and you're doing regular backups, you don't really have to worry about obsolescence.

A good analog recorder you could keep going practically forever, but with digital, I've come to accept that these are basically throwaway devices and that the important thing is transferring your data to the latest popular medium every few years.

[pata2001]

Would I be better off buying one of the memory card recorders than a Hi-MD recorder at this point?

Think about it. In the next couple of years, would you still be able to buy the media if you want to? And what would happen if your RH1 broke, would you be able to get it repaired or replaced? Once you have answers to those, then you can decide.

[sfbp]

Can you get a hard disk fixed when it dies? (rhetorical question) Tell me you've never lost a song that was stored on a hard disk.

MD's combine backup with accessibility. Doesn't sound like they are gone yet by a long chalk.

[Le Chiffre]

Think about it. In the next couple of years, would you still be able to buy the media if you want to? And what would happen if your RH1 broke, would you be able to get it repaired or replaced? Once you have answers to those, then you can decide.

See my preceding post. These are not concerns if you regularly transfer your recordings to a computer for archiving to DVD-R or the like. My intention is to buy 4 or 5 Hi-MDs upfront and just keep wiping them and reusing them after I've transferred the recordings to DVD-R, thus eliminating the need to buy new discs (I would do the same thing if I bought a memory card recorder). Sony charges $11 per Hi-MD (though you can get them for as little as $4 if you buy in quantity), while a blank DVD which holds over 4 GB costs about 25 cents. I wouldn't consider Hi-MD if I had to pay $11 per disc and couldn't do quick transfers to a computer.

The questions you're asking about MD could just as easily be asked about the current crop of memory recorders. Do you really think one of these devices will still be serviceable 5 years from now? Do you think the memory cards for these devices will still be available in five years given the pace at which computer technology advances? I doubt it. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that Hi-MD discs will remain available long after today's memory card devices have become obsolete.

Edited June 21, 2008 by Le Chiffre

[Le Chiffre]

All in all apart from the RH10 I would say don't worry about the reliability both from a mecahnical and an electrical point of view.

Most of the complaints on Amazon seemed to suggest that the problem was with file corruption during transfer of the files to a computer, rather than being mechanical or electrical in nature.

Do you do much file transferring to a computer? Have you had any problems with file corruption?

[sfbp]

Most of the complaints on Amazon seemed to suggest that the problem was with file corruption during transfer of the files to a computer, rather than being mechanical or electrical in nature.

Do you do much file transferring to a computer?

Yes, lots. I admit that I do a fair amount of playback at real time into my computers TosLink, but I have yet to fail to get the first upload of a file via the NetMD interface.

Have you had any problems with file corruption?

None whatever.

The only issue is quality, how much does one lose compared to the almost-CD SP? Consensus and experience seem to indicate Hi-SP (256k) is pretty good; of course there is always PCM and since you get 94 minutes on a 1GB disk, that's enough for most live recordings.

[pata2001]

See my preceding post. These are not concerns if you regularly transfer your recordings to a computer for archiving to DVD-R or the like. My intention is to buy 4 or 5 Hi-MDs upfront and just keep wiping them and reusing them after I've transferred the recordings to DVD-R, thus eliminating the need to buy new discs (I would do the same thing if I bought a memory card recorder). Sony charges $11 per Hi-MD (though you can get them for as little as $4 if you buy in quantity), while a blank DVD which holds over 4 GB costs about 25 cents. I wouldn't consider Hi-MD if I had to pay $11 per disc and couldn't do quick transfers to a computer.

I completely understand what you said, and my questions still stand. Let's say you're on the go, doing live recording, you're down to your last disc. You cannot just walk into a Target store and buy a blank, can you. It's more likely that they will sell CF/MS/xD/SD cards than MD. And let's say 5 years from now, your RH1 broke, and you still have some recordings that you have not uploaded yet. Seeing that even Compact Flash is still widely supported today, I don't see media like SD card will suddenly be not supported in 5 years. In 5 years, I can still probably buy a cheap card reader. Couldn't say the same thing for MD. Of course, if you only plan to use MD for short term, and move to another media soon, I don't see a problem.

Can you get a hard disk fixed when it dies? (rhetorical question) Tell me you've never lost a song that was stored on a hard disk.

MD's combine backup with accessibility. Doesn't sound like they are gone yet by a long chalk.

I don't know why you are comparing MD with hard-drive, but okay. Backup is always important, so not backing up your hard-drive is not wise anyway. Even if I have a corrupt hard-drive, I can use Spinrite to attempt data recovery. What can you do if you have an MD disc that is not readable? As shown in this forum and others, MD is not 100% error proof. In 5 years, do you think you can still buy a device to read your MD?

[sfbp]

I don't know why you are comparing MD with hard-drive, but okay. Backup is always important, so not backing up your hard-drive is not wise anyway. Even if I have a corrupt hard-drive, I can use Spinrite to attempt data recovery. What can you do if you have an MD disc that is not readable? As shown in this forum and others, MD is not 100% error proof. In 5 years, do you think you can still buy a device to read your MD?

You can't use Spinrite on your Ipod. Or any other portable device with a hard disk.

Sure, you need to back up your hard drive. But I trust MD more than I trust a memory stick.

I heard some rumours that indicate MD might last a long time because of certain organisations (eg NPR) having contracts. So as long as they are being manufactured you've got a finite time to move away from MD.

[A440]

Le Chiffre, I wouldn't depend on just 4 or 5 Hi-MDs. One by one they will fail on you.

I just had one decide that it will only record either a certain number of groups or a certain amount of music--I'm not sure which it is. Luckily I could upload what it did record. Then I formatted it, hoping that might fix minor disc errors. No way. It failed again at about 2.5 hours into the disc (at Hi-SP, 8 hours). It's not getting another chance.

I've had a couple go completely unrecoverable (though Sony fixed the one I sent in). I've had another one or two just not work. That's five right there, and post-traumatic stress probably has wiped my own human memory of other disc failures. I'd say 10 at a minimum--get them in quantity from Tape Warehouse if they still have them--and keep your fingers crossed.

Looks like Tape Warehouse still has them.

http://www.tapewarehouse.com/catalog/CatFrame.cfm

How to Order/Go to Internet Catalog/Digital Audio/Mini-Disc Audio/SCM HMD1G HI-MD DISC. Which is why they still have them--nobody can find them.

[pata2001]

You can't use Spinrite on your Ipod. Or any other portable device with a hard disk.

Sure, you need to back up your hard drive. But I trust MD more than I trust a memory stick.

So, from MD vs hard-drive, now it's iPod. What are we discussing again? And then there's memory stick?

Spinrite works with hard-drives. There are testimonials on people using it to fix iPods. I don't see a similar program for MD.

[Le Chiffre]

I completely understand what you said, and my questions still stand. Let's say you're on the go, doing live recording, you're down to your last disc. You cannot just walk into a Target store and buy a blank, can you. It's more likely that they will sell CF/MS/xD/SD cards than MD. And let's say 5 years from now, your RH1 broke, and you still have some recordings that you have not uploaded yet. Seeing that even Compact Flash is still widely supported today, I don't see media like SD card will suddenly be not supported in 5 years. In 5 years, I can still probably buy a cheap card reader. Couldn't say the same thing for MD. Of course, if you only plan to use MD for short term, and move to another media soon, I don't see a problem.

Well, your points are valid, but these are both remote scenarios. I don't make gear purchases based on worst case scenarios, I base my decisions on the situations I'm likely to encounter 99% of the time. It's not going to be the end of the world if the recorder craps out near the end of its life and I lose a recording, or if I underestimate the length of a concert or jam session and don't bring enough disks to record it all. The same could happen with a memory card recorder. (Incidentally, I still see regular MD blanks for sale in drugstores and places like Wal-Mart; I'm sure those would do in a pinch.)

Also, what kind of a track record do memory card devices have as far as reliability? Can we really take it for granted that they're more reliable than Hi-MD?

And I absolutely guarantee you that in 5 years from now your memory card devices will be obsolete! You won't be able to buy blank media, and if you contact the company for support, they'll just tell you to ditch it and buy the latest model. If anything, 5 years is optimistic.

Le Chiffre, I wouldn't depend on just 4 or 5 Hi-MDs. One by one they will fail on you.

I just had one decide that it will only record either a certain number of groups or a certain amount of music--I'm not sure which it is. Luckily I could upload what it did record. Then I formatted it, hoping that might fix minor disc errors. No way. It failed again at about 2.5 hours into the disc (at Hi-SP, 8 hours). It's not getting another chance.

I've had a couple go completely unrecoverable (though Sony fixed the one I sent in). I've had another one or two just not work. That's five right there, and post-traumatic stress probably has wiped my own human memory of other disc failures. I'd say 10 at a minimum--get them in quantity from Tape Warehouse if they still have them--and keep your fingers crossed.

Looks like Tape Warehouse still has them.

http://www.tapewarehouse.com/catalog/CatFrame.cfm

How to Order/Go to Internet Catalog/Digital Audio/Mini-Disc Audio/SCM HMD1G HI-MD DISC. Which is why they still have them--nobody can find them.

I'm lucky in that a hi-fi shop where I live has them in stock and is willing to sell me them for $4 a pop if I buy 10 or more. But given what you've just said, I'm not sure I'm going to go with Hi-MD. "Cross your fingers" doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

If that's the level of reliability one can expect from Hi-MD, I'd be better off going back to cassettes.

The only issue is quality, how much does one lose compared to the almost-CD SP? Consensus and experience seem to indicate Hi-SP (256k) is pretty good; of course there is always PCM and since you get 94 minutes on a 1GB disk, that's enough for most live recordings.

I wasn't planning on using any data compression whatsoever (PCM all the way), so this is not an issue for me.

In 5 years, do you think you can still buy a device to read your MD?

If being able to play back discs in 5 years is such a concern, buy an extra player now. What's the big deal?

Edited June 22, 2008 by Le Chiffre

[sfbp]

I think some people must rather abuse their equipment. In fact in a post today, someone admitted as how they did that, and how the player came through anyway.

Nearly all mine is second hand, and I only had one failure, ever, and from reading on here, I realise now, what I might well have done to recover from *that*.

One thing to bear in mind is that PCM uses a lot more disk access, therefore power, and also mechanical wear on the moving parts of the player, than the compressed formats.

It's also fairly clear from sound tests that SP, Hi-SP and PCM have not that much to choose from, unless you are recording something that ought to be done with a bank of mixers and 20 mikes. Hi-SP uploads easier to computer (faster, no losses?) than SP (forget LP if you care about quality for making your own recordings). SP is fine via optical out from a deck, but no portable players left have optical, and no deck has HiMD (except a couple that don't have optical out OR USB). That's one reason to stick with SP, and gives you that much more redundancy since every MD device made supports SP.

[Le Chiffre]

One thing to bear in mind is that PCM uses a lot more disk access, therefore power, and also mechanical wear on the moving parts of the player, than the compressed formats.

It's also fairly clear from sound tests that SP, Hi-SP and PCM have not that much to choose from, unless you are recording something that ought to be done with a bank of mixers and 20 mikes. Hi-SP uploads easier to computer (faster, no losses?) than SP (forget LP if you care about quality for making your own recordings). SP is fine via optical out from a deck, but no portable players left have optical, and no deck has HiMD (except a couple that don't have optical out OR USB). That's one reason to stick with SP, and gives you that much more redundancy since every MD device made supports SP.

While I have found that ATRAC works extremely well, especially in its last few incarnations, I'm not a fan of compression. Compression bothers me at the theoretical level, but it's also not a good practice if you plan on processing the material further after you're done recording. I didn't like compression 10 years ago when there was actually a reason to use it (to get around storage limitations), so I sure as hell am not going to start using it now!

Based on everything I've read, I think I might be better off with one of these newfangled memory card recorders. I think they were designed for what I want to do more than the Sony Hi-MD recorders.

What do people recommend as far as memory card recorders? M-Audio, Edirol, Olympus, Marantz...?

[A440]

I should point out that my 5 disc failures are out of at least a hundred Hi-MDs. They are still far more reliable (not to mention better-sounding and more versatile) than cassettes. Remember tape jams? A disc going bad is a worst-case scenario, not a regular event. I'm just saying that as they do disappear from the market (and regular MDs will too), you'd best stock up.

The deep problem with MD, and one that we have been willing to put up with for its other good features, is that MD recordings are all encrypted, to be decrypted by SonicStage. If you look at a Hi-MD in Windows Explorer you see one giant file, DATAxxx.HMA. That is everything recorded on the disc. One bad bit and....hasta la vista. Sony didn't even have the intelligence to encrypt one group at a time, so that even if your latest recording went bonkers, you'd still have the previous ones. One corrupt section and the whole thing has to be sent to Sony, which will charge $40 or so IF they can get it back.

But having filled up all those discs, for stealthy concert recording I see no reason to switch from Hi-MD until my units wear out.

This is probably not the place to ask about memory-card recorders, though if you look for guitarfxr's posts he has tried a bunch of them. Which one you'd get depends on how stealthy you want to be, how much you intend to use the unit's built-in mic preamps (which are mostly lower quality than MD/Hi-MD preamps), whether you like built-in mics (I don't), whether you want a remote control or on-the-spot track marking, whether the unit is being kept still during use (apparently a Tascam problem), what you want in the display, and on and on. .

To venture into the realm of near insanity you can check out www.taperssection.com . They are fanatics, and often very well-informed. They agree with you about PCM--they just want at least 24/96.

Edited June 23, 2008 by A440

[Le Chiffre]

I should point out that my 5 disc failures are out of at least a hundred Hi-MDs.

So we're talking a roughly 5% failure rate (which still seems quite high to me).

They are still far more reliable (not to mention better-sounding and more versatile) than cassettes.

I was being tongue-in-cheek when I brought up cassettes. I would never go back to using them, except maybe for non-critical stuff like voice recordings, radio shows, etc. (I still use them in my answering machine, and they work fine in that capacity.) I brought them up only because for all their flaws and inadequacies, they were fairly reliable (so long as you weren't using the absolute cheapest of the cheap). I never found myself having to cross my fingers hoping to get or keep a recording with cassettes, and even when a tape chewed up, the recording was usually salvageable (I remember fishing a length of tape which someone had pulled out of the shell out of the garbage, wiping the mustard and other gunk off it, and spooling it back up into another shell, thus rescuing a spontaneous improv piece which none of us would've remembered how to play otherwise).

Remember tape jams?

The only tape jams I've encountered were when I was using cheap cassettes and/or cassette decks (or when using cassettes longer than 90 minutes, which used an extremely thin tape that was more prone to that sort of thing).

But having filled up all those discs, for stealthy concert recording I see no reason to switch from Hi-MD until my units wear out.

Of course. If you're already using the format, there's no reason to switch to another. But if you were just getting started, would you still choose MD?

This is probably not the place to ask about memory-card recorders...

I don't know about that. There's at least one individual in this thread who seems to have it in for Hi-MD and has been recommending that I go with a memory card recorder. Whether he seriously dislikes MD or is just playing devil's advocate, I don't know.

though if you look for guitarfxr's posts he has tried a bunch of them. Which one you'd get depends on how stealthy you want to be, how much you intend to use the unit's built-in mic preamps (which are mostly lower quality than MD/Hi-MD preamps), whether you like built-in mics (I don't), whether you want a remote control or on-the-spot track marking, whether the unit is being kept still during use (apparently a Tascam problem), what you want in the display, and on and on. .

Honestly, the only things I care about are reliability and ease-of-use (and size, though I assume most of these aren't much bigger than a pack of cigarettes, which is fine). I'm not a stealth taper, so that's not a concern for me; in this age of cell phones and palm computers, pulling out a device like this isn't very conspicuous anyways. I already assumed that the built-in mics and preamps would fall into the "gimmick" category and that I would have to use external mics/preamps to get the best results (no problem, though I'm sure the built-in mics are fine for voice recordings, catching the quick song idea, etc).

Basically, I want something that's small, mechanically reliable, that's about as easy to operate as a tape recorder, and that makes it easy to transfer files to/from a PC. As long as I have those, everything else is just icing on the cake.

To venture into the realm of near insanity you can check out www.taperssection.com . They are fanatics, and often very well-informed. They agree with you about PCM--they just want at least 24/96.

Thanks. I'll check it out.

Edited June 23, 2008 by Le Chiffre

[A440]

if you were just getting started, would you still choose MD?

Honestly, the only things I care about are reliability and ease-of-use (and size, though I assume most of these aren't much bigger than a pack of cigarettes, which is fine).

Basically, I want something that's small, mechanically reliable, that's about as easy to operate as a tape recorder, and that makes it easy to transfer files to/from a PC.

Short answer is, no, Hi-MD is not worth getting into now as your first digital recorder.

But you do want something that records well. If you're recording through Mic-In (with your mics), using the built in preamp, then you may want to put up with the inconveniences (SonicStage) of MD. If you want to be able to make track marks while recording--which is a great feature--then Hi-MD is also very useful, though I think some of the flash recorders now have that capability as well. MD is pocket-sized; units with built-in mics are slightly bigger. "As easy to operate as a tape recorder"--how about level adjustment, track marks, remote operation? Depends on the unit and your sense of what is intuitive. Easy to transfer: Well, it's two or three steps (open SonicStage, upload, File conversion) instead of drag-and-drop.

But all the flash units have various good and bad points. What I haven't seen yet is a unit with Hi-MD's compactness (no built-in mics), remote control and on-the-fly track marking combined with the simple drag-and-drop that would have kept MD alive. MD also has great battery life, at least on compressed formats. I have used an Edirol R09, and while its display is awful, it does do the job otherwise. The ideal digital recorder (for my purposes) is technologically possible, but no one has yet put together all of my favorite features, which would be, basically, Hi-MD--remote control, track marking, replaceable battery (instead of built-in rechargeable)--plus a better display plus drag-and-drop.

Edited June 24, 2008 by A440

[Le Chiffre]

Short answer is, no, Hi-MD is not worth getting into now as your first digital recorder.

Well, you say this, but then you go on to list all the reasons you prefer MD! Why wouldn't you choose Hi-MD as your first digital recorder?

If you're recording through Mic-In (with your mics), using the built in preamp, then you may want to put up with the inconveniences (SonicStage) of MD.

Is this worth doing? All my mics are XLR/48 V phantom, so I would need to buy a new mic to take advantage of the Sony's preamps. In my mind, I had pretty much relegated the built-in preamp to a convenience and not something I would use for serious recordings.

MD is pocket-sized; units with built-in mics are slightly bigger.

That was one of the things that initially drew me towards Hi-MD; it's still one of the smallest CD-quality recorders out there.

how about level adjustment,

I would've assumed that was a given on any of these units? Is that assumption incorrect? I mean, these things are designed for recording and being able to adjust level properly is a very basic requirement. These things are pretty crude at the moment if they still haven't incorporated features like that.

track marks,

Well, as you say, some units have this ability. Certainly could be a useful feature, though not indispensable. You can break apart tracks easily enough on a computer.

remote operation?

I don't see the usefulness of this, except for stealth recording. Most of these units aren't much bigger than a VCR's remote control as it is.

Depends on the unit and your sense of what is intuitive.

As "easy to use as a tape recorder" is not that ambiguous. It means play/record/rewind/et cetera do pretty much what you would expect them to. It means you don't have to memorize obscure combinations of button presses, or go through a maze of LCD menus, in order to perform basic operations. I guess some people find tree menus and multi-purpose buttons highly intuitive, but I don't.

Easy to transfer: Well, it's two or three steps (open SonicStage, upload, File conversion) instead of drag-and-drop.

I wasn't saying Hi-MD didn't meet some or all of my criteria. I was simply stating what I wanted from a memory card recorder thinking it might help narrow the field. I don't doubt that Sonic Stage is easy to use, though it leads me to wonder, why did you start out your paragraph by bashing it if that's the case? Why is Sonic Stage one of the "inconveniences of MD," as you put it? I will say that I'm not too hot on the fact that Sonic Stage is proprietary, or that conversion is even required for PCM recordings. Those wouldn't in themselves prevent me from using Hi-MD, though.

(There's something odd going on with the message board software regarding quotations, so I'm continuing this a little differently.)

A440 wrote: But all the flash units have various good and bad points. What I haven't seen yet is a unit with Hi-MD's compactness (no built-in mics),

I doubt it'll happen. These things all seem to be cut from the same mold. The only significant differences I would expect would be in the software/interface. I've been waiting for years for just a high-quality, line-only portable solid state recorder (what a simple concept!), and I don't think it's ever going to happen. If your competition has built-in mics, then you've gotta have 'em too. No one ever stops to think that less could be more.

A440 wrote: I have used an Edirol R09, and while its display is awful, it does do the job otherwise.

What didn't you like about its display?

A440 wrote: The ideal digital recorder (for my purposes) is technologically possible, but no one has yet put together all of my favorite features, which would be, basically, Hi-MD--remote control, track marking, replaceable battery (instead of built-in rechargeable)--plus a better display plus drag-and-drop.

Yeah, the technology is out there to do practically anything, but there seems to be a lack of vision and creativity, and a reluctance to invest in original ideas. I've often thought of things that didn't exist at the time that eventually showed up on the market years later; if only I had had the technical and/or business skills to put them into action, I could've made some money! I know in one case a company put out a product that was feature-for-feature identical with a description I had posted on the net; I didn't mind them "borrowing" (to put it charitably) my ideas, but they could at least have sent me one as a gift!

BTW, why would you prefer a replaceable battery to a built-in rechargeable? I would've assumed the rechargeable would be an advantage, if battery life was good.

[sfbp]

All my mics are XLR/48 V phantom, so I would need to buy a new mic to take advantage of the Sony's preamps. In my mind, I had pretty much relegated the built-in preamp to a convenience and not something I would use for serious recordings.

Not Hi-MD but perhaps you are unaware of the pro line from HHB

http://www.minidisc-canada.com/shopexd.asp?id=357

Cheers

[Avrin]

He meant replaceable in the sense of easily replaceable by the user, not as in the sense of disposable.

Has anyone of you tried to have fun with the [...] battery of the E10?

Edited June 24, 2008 by Avrin

[Le Chiffre]

Not Hi-MD but perhaps you are unaware of the pro line from HHB

Was dimly aware of it, but as you may have guessed, not interested because it's not Hi-MD. I'm actually surprised these are still being made.

The replaceable ones are rechargeable. He meant replaceable in the sense of easily replaceable by the user, not as in the sense of disposable.

Thanks for explaining what the other poster meant.

I assume the reason the other poster would want batteries that are "easily replaceable by the user" is because the ones that aren't can sometimes crap out, leaving the user dependent on an AC adapter or external battery pack?

[A440]

Le Chiffre, let's go back to a basic question. What are you recording? All you mentioned to start was "general purpose and field recorder."

But then you have XLR mics, probably a phantom power unit and mixer, only want to record in PCM....

So are you recording: Live music? Studio sessions? Songwriting ideas? Interviews? Surveillance tapes for use in high-profile blackmail cases?

------

Rather than .html the quotes, I'm just going to bounce off some of the points you raise.

With XLRs you should probably rule out Hi-MD. Either get a unit with XLR inputs or prepare to carry a preamp that's probably as big or bigger than the unit. I think there may even be flash recorders with phantom power for those mics.

But there are people that just carry a stereo electret mic, plug it into the unit and do interviews and field recording with it with it--like journalists, even radio journalists. For them, a noisy built-in mic preamp is a deal-breaker. But it's not for you.

Little recorders do have level adjustment. But how it's controlled (button or knob), what the display is, etc., varies.

"Like a tape recorder." You may think that's a simple request, but it's not. Everything has a different interface. None is like your tape recorder. On the other hand, you don't really need rewind for digital media.

Some of the genius flash recorders are made with a built-in rechargeable battery. Battery dies, no more recording without AC or external battery pack. For instance, the M-Audio Microtrack II (forget the original) has a built-in battery that lasts (they claim) 5 hours. That's not gonna go a long way at a music festival like Bonnaroo.

So you need to check about batteries, because you don't want to have to end your session when the battery runs out.

My MZ-NH700 takes one AA battery that runs more than 8 hours on Hi-SP. When it dies, I pop it out and replace it, losing no more than 30 seconds of recording. Something to think about, depending on your usual recording situation.

The Edirol R09 does take AA batteries (a plus). The display is backlit but small and hard to read--especially compared to the display of the MZ-RH1 (which, however, only takes its unusual gumstick battery, not AA, so you'd have to own and keep charged and carry a replacement, or a 4-AA external battery pack). Do you want to be moving the unit around and peering at it while you record so you can read the display?

With Hi-MD, the RM-MC40ELK remote is my display during recording: backlit, very clear level indicator, not so clear track number indicator but it'll do. Maybe it's a remnant of the tape days, but I like to keep the unit still and look at a remote. To me, a remote is not as useless as it might be for you.

SonicStage is a stumbling block to say the least. SonicStage killed MD. The Amazon poster was pretty extreme, but not totally wrong.

When you've got a digital file, you should be able to drag and drop it. Not 1) open SonicStage 2) connect USB to unit 3 ) wait for SonicStage to list contents of disc 4)upload at less than USB 2.0 speed 5) hope that SonicStage didn't choke on any tracks (which sometimes upload just fine on a second try) 6) start File Conversion Tool, which checks your entire SonicStage library as if you want to copy-protect it (slow), tells you how long it would take, requires you to un-check copy protection, re-reads the database, gives you a new conversion time (7) run File Conversion Tool to remove encryption and (8) convert the resulting .oma files to something a non-Sony device will play, like .wav or .mp3.

All that is now routine for me, and I move the converted files out of the SonicStage library so it doesn't keep re-checking them every time I want to use File Conversion Tool on something new. But while Sony did at least include the encryption remover, it could have let you un-check the Add Copy Protection box BEFORE the first check of the database. Stuff like that is annoying.

SonicStage is almost entirely reliable in its latest versions. But it just shouldn't be there. That's what I mean. And that's why, much as I enjoy Hi-MD, I don't recommend it to anyone who's not used to MD's many quirks.

One other thing about Hi-MD recording. When you're done recording, you need to press the Stop button and let the unit write the recording to the disc. Otherwise it's gone, pffffft!, like you'd written your novel in a word processor but closed the program before you hit the Save button. Takes, oh, 10-40 seconds. But until "Data Save" and "System File Writing" are done, you don't have a recording. If the battery gets loose during that operation, your disc is wrecked. Quirky.

Edited June 25, 2008 by A440

[bluecrab]

I've been skimming through this thread - funny. just the other day I was thinking how very few failures I have experienced out of hundreds of standard MDs, of various brands. Pretty amazing. Really, just a few out of all those. That's far better than what I've seen from CD-Rs. Don't know about Hi-MD because I do not have one. Now if only my decks last as long as I do, I'm all set!

[sfbp]

I would echo that, and summarize my "judgements" (no facts here):

1. SP is as good as you will ever get, the compression is essentially broadcast quality

2. MD is for sure better than tape of any kind (no hiss, wow/flutter) and same or better freq response, as long as you don't use LP-anything. So Hi-MD 256K is a fine format.

3. For quality and reliability, choose SP and do it in 80-minute chunks. Forget about the RH1, realtime out from a Deck's optical to computer optical in is as good as any CD. With the RH1 you only get realtime uploads of SP anyway (though i have seen claims of faster).

4. For length of recording and ease of upload, use Hi-MD 256K, and save as WAV files (automated option on SonicStage).

5. If you want to use expensive XLR Mics, the HHB portathingy is really your only pro option. There's no pro HiMD deck, and the consumer HiMD deck (Onkyo) has no optical out, so now you have to use something else to get the data into your 'puter.

Good luck!

[Le Chiffre]

You could make your own XLR adapter for the RH1, or buy the one Sony markets for the PCM-D1/50, the XLR-1, and use that with it.

Unless I'm missing something here, recording with XLR mics should be as simple as plugging the outputs of the preamps to the RH1's line inputs. No need to buy anything else, unless it's to have a completely battery-powered setup, in which case I would just as soon buy a stereo mic that I could plug straight into the recorder.

I've been skimming through this thread - funny. just the other day I was thinking how very few failures I have experienced out of hundreds of standard MDs, of various brands. Pretty amazing. Really, just a few out of all those. That's far better than what I've seen from CD-Rs.

I was thinking something similar a day or two ago. The only blank media I remember as having a 5% failure rate were some brands of CD-R about 10 years ago. Back then, if I bought a box of 20 Maxell CD-Rs, I could be sure that at least two of them would be bad. These days, the failure rates for CD-Rs and DVD-Rs are probably close to zero, even on off brands. We're not really comparing apples with apples here, though. I suppose it would be more accurate to compare MD with CD-RW.

Edited June 26, 2008 by Le Chiffre

[1kyle]

The real crunch of course with all this is the availability (or non availability) of the media.

Even if EVERBODY stopped making MD blanks today you'd still be able to get these for AT LEAST 10 Years. Ok you won't be able to get them in every conceivable outlet but you certainly will be able to source the disks.

The Hardware as has been pointed out in these posts is pretty robust and solid state cards now there are so many different types makes any sort of archive / compatability a total nightmare compared to having an MD library.

You know a standard (60/74/80) MD disk recorded at SP 292 will be readable by ANY MD unit on this planet.

With solid state devices --some use CF, some use XD, SD, Micro SD. etc etc -- it's a real mess.

As for those guys who say well MD's are not convenient for recording --- you are not likely to run out if you take 3 or 4 1GB discs with you.

Incidentally even solid state devices can get full --what do you do then --erase the material you might want to keep or try and insert a new tiny micro card into it during a force 8 gale.

As for non availability of media -- well I have an old machine that can cut 78 RPM vinyl discs and guess what --I can STILL source 78 Blank discs for recording on if I feel up to doing it.

MD's will still be around in some guise or another for "Donkeys Years" yet.

Cheers

-K

[Le Chiffre]

A440 wrote: What are you recording? All you mentioned to start was "general purpose and field recorder."

"General purpose" means just that, general purpose. If I had something more specific in mind, I would have said so.

A440 wrote: So are you recording: Live music? Studio sessions? Songwriting ideas? Interviews? Surveillance tapes for use in high-profile blackmail cases?

All of the above and more.

A440 wrote: Either get a unit with XLR inputs or prepare to carry a preamp that's probably as big or bigger than the unit.

I know perfectly well that Sony MD recorders can't accomodate XLR/48 V mics out of the box. If I was going to purchase one, I would be prepared to use an external mic preamp when I wanted to use those mics. DUH!

A440 wrote: I think there may even be flash recorders with phantom power for those mics.

Yes, some of the memory card recorders have built-in XLR mic preamps. Where did you get the idea that I care about built-in mic preamps? I've already outlined what features are important to me, and "good mic preamps" is not one of them.

A440 wrote: But there are people that just carry a stereo electret mic, plug it into the unit and do interviews and field recording with it with it--like journalists, even radio journalists.

I'm aware of that. Those are the mics the Sony preamps were designed to use. It's possible that I would have purchased such a mic to go along with a Hi-MD recorder for such non-critical recording situations as interviews. But is that really all that different from the built-in mic concept which you seem to abhor so much?

A440 wrote: For them, a noisy built-in mic preamp is a deal-breaker. But it's not for you.

I have no idea what you mean by this. Is that some kind of a jab?

Having known a few journalists, including radio journalists, my personal impression is that most of them could care less about sound quality. Most of these people were perfectly happy using crappy cassette recorders, even mini cassette recorders, before the advent of affordable portable digital recorders. If your idea of audio quality comes from radio journalism, maybe you need to set your standards a little higher.

If what you were trying to tell me is that in your opinion, the Sony preamps are good, you could've just come out and said so.

A440 wrote: Little recorders do have level adjustment. But how it's controlled (button or knob), what the display is, etc., varies.

You're not telling me anything I don't already know.

A440 wrote: "Like a tape recorder." You may think that's a simple request, but it's not.

What's so complicated about it?

A440 wrote: Everything has a different interface.

I am aware of that. If they all had the same interface, buying one would be a simple decision.

A440 wrote: None is like your tape recorder.

And what tape recorder would that be? The one I never mentioned anywhere in this thread?

A440 wrote: On the other hand, you don't really need rewind for digital media.

That must explain why rewind buttons are ubiquitous on CD and DVD players, recording software, memory card recorders, digital portastudios, etc.

A440 wrote: Some of the genius flash recorders are made with a built-in rechargeable battery.

So in other words, they're no different than the genius Sony Hi-MD recorders you were complaining about?

A440 wrote: That's not gonna go a long way at a music festival like Bonnaroo.

Sure, if the Bonnaroo music festival is what you want to record.

A440 wrote: So you need to check about batteries, because you don't want to have to end your session when the battery runs out.

I think we can take it as a given that I would read the spec sheet before purchasing one of these devices.

A440 wrote: My MZ-NH700 takes one AA battery that runs more than 8 hours on Hi-SP. When it dies, I pop it out and replace it, losing no more than 30 seconds of recording.

Do Hi-MD recorders have user-replaceable batteries or don't they? I thought you were complaining about how they didn't have replaceable batteries earlier in the thread.

A440 wrote: ...MZ-RH1 (which, however, only takes its unusual gumstick battery, not AA, so you'd have to own and keep charged and carry a replacement, or a 4-AA external battery pack).

Sounds practical.

A440 wrote: Do you want to be moving the unit around and peering at it while you record so you can read the display?

Wouldn't bother me. Might pose a problem for a stealth taper. Is that the only thing you didn't like about the Edirol? Seems kind of trivial, unless you're primarily concerned with stealth taping (and even then, why not pretend that it's a cell phone?).

A440 wrote: To me, a remote is not as useless as it might be for you.

Then it's a good thing your recorders came with one.

A440 wrote: SonicStage is a stumbling block to say the least. SonicStage killed MD. The Amazon poster was pretty extreme, but not totally wrong.

When you've got a digital file, you should be able to drag and drop it. Not 1) open SonicStage 2) connect USB to unit 3 ) wait for SonicStage to list contents of disc 4)upload at less than USB 2.0 speed 5) hope that SonicStage didn't choke on any tracks (which sometimes upload just fine on a second try) 6) start File Conversion Tool, which checks your entire SonicStage library as if you want to copy-protect it (slow), tells you how long it would take, requires you to un-check copy protection, re-reads the database, gives you a new conversion time (7) run File Conversion Tool to remove encryption and (8) convert the resulting .oma files to something a non-Sony device will play, like .wav or .mp3.

This is the kind of info I was looking for. Thank you.

A440 wrote: All that is now routine for me, and I move the converted files out of the SonicStage library so it doesn't keep re-checking them every time I want to use File Conversion Tool on something new. But while Sony did at least include the encryption remover, it could have let you un-check the Add Copy Protection box BEFORE the first check of the database. Stuff like that is annoying.

Really annoying.

A440 wrote: One other thing about Hi-MD recording. When you're done recording, you need to press the Stop button and let the unit write the recording to the disc. Otherwise it's gone, pffffft!, like you'd written your novel in a word processor but closed the program before you hit the Save button. Takes, oh, 10-40 seconds. But until "Data Save" and "System File Writing" are done, you don't have a recording. If the battery gets loose during that operation, your disc is wrecked. Quirky.

Yeah, I had noticed that when I got a salesman at a Sony store to demo a unit for me a few years ago. I'll have to make sure whatever memory card recorder I buy auto-saves the recording as it's progressing so I don't have to deal with that kind of nonsense.

Edited June 26, 2008 by Le Chiffre

[Russell Letson]

For what it's worth: the Olympus LS-10, reviewed by a sensible and reliable pro-level user. Mark has reviews on the same site, of several of the other new-gen recorders as well. I'm likely to pick up this Olympus as an alternative/backup for my *many* MD recorders--the feature set and tech specs make it a strong candidate for a replacement field recorder, should some strange and unlikely disaster destroy or disable all of my half-dozen MD/HiMD units.

http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2008/05/22...der-review.html

[Le Chiffre]

The Hardware as has been pointed out in these posts is pretty robust and solid state cards now there are so many different types makes any sort of archive / compatability a total nightmare compared to having an MD library.

You're missing the point. You're not supposed to archive all your data on solid state cards; you're supposed to transfer the data to a computer, just like people do with their digital cameras. People don't buy memory cards for their digital cameras the same way they used to buy rolls of film; they transfer their pictures to a computer, erase the card, and then reuse it.

As for non availability of media -- well I have an old machine that can cut 78 RPM vinyl discs and guess what --I can STILL source 78 Blank discs for recording on if I feel up to doing it.

MD's will still be around in some guise or another for "Donkeys Years" yet.

Comparing MD's to 78's isn't really useful. Records are a primitive analog technology whose principles are well known and which could be easily recreated if need be. MD's are a closed, proprietary digital technology which rely on complex surface-mount IC's which were probably only ever manufactured by Sony. When MD's gone, it'll be gone for good.

For what it's worth: the Olympus LS-10, reviewed by a sensible and reliable pro-level user.

The Olympus has been getting a lot of praise. It's high on my list of recorders to check out.

[sfbp]

I know perfectly well that Sony MD recorders can't accomodate XLR/48 V mics out of the box. If I was going to purchase one, I would be prepared to use an external mic preamp when I wanted to use those mics. DUH!

I really think that language and behaviour like this are not to be tolerated. You're the newbie here, and you come in and start insulting someone. On top of that, you're not taking any notice of any advice anyone gives, so I suggest we don't need to give you any more.

FWIW, I think the paragraph by A440 about how complicated it is to do all this stuff is overblown. For someone with an ounce of technical skill these manipulations are trivial.

Have a Nice Day (and I mean that in the Great American Way).

[bobzilli]

LOL

[JWCompany]

Although this seems to be the end of this thread I'd still like to add an important point to consider: It's all nice to have a bazillion units nicely working in five or ten years' time - however if you want to upload your recordings via USB you're totally dependent on Sonicstage and proper drivers for your device. Both have to be adapted for each operating system anew. Windows 7 will come out in 1 1/2 years. If that should be the moment Sony decides it's time for us to buy new devices, we face the decision whether we want to keep an ageing OS or an ageing recording device.

Sure enough there is always the Good Old Way To Do It, TOS-link or whatever, but once that happens you really know it's over...

[sfbp]

Although this seems to be the end of this thread I'd still like to add an important point to consider: It's all nice to have a bazillion units nicely working in five or ten years' time - however if you want to upload your recordings via USB you're totally dependent on Sonicstage and proper drivers for your device. Both have to be adapted for each operating system anew. Windows 7 will come out in 1 1/2 years. If that should be the moment Sony decides it's time for us to buy new devices, we face the decision whether we want to keep an ageing OS or an ageing recording device.

Sure enough there is always the Good Old Way To Do It, TOS-link or whatever, but once that happens you really know it's over...

Sorry I couldn't resist having the last word... again.... because it's post #42 which as you know means the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything.

To me the USB is a mere convenience. That's one reason not to trust even PCM under HiMD until there is a deck (or someone manages to hack one trivially) that plays back HiMD with optical out that can be "transferred out" to something that cannot be restricted by Sony or anyone else.

The basic SP format is still very very good. Sending it to a computer via Toslink is (to me) not the last resort, but absolutely the best and only way because I know that nothing has been done to it.

Just thought I'd get this one comment in..... since the thread is about Hi-MD reliability, I guess you are exactly right.

[1kyle]

You're missing the point. You're not supposed to archive all your data on solid state cards; you're supposed to transfer the data to a computer, just like people do with their digital cameras. People don't buy memory cards for their digital cameras the same way they used to buy rolls of film; they transfer their pictures to a computer, erase the card, and then reuse it.

Comparing MD's to 78's isn't really useful. Records are a primitive analog technology whose principles are well known and which could be easily recreated if need be. MD's are a closed, proprietary digital technology which rely on complex surface-mount IC's which were probably only ever manufactured by Sony. When MD's gone, it'll be gone for good.

The Olympus has been getting a lot of praise. It's high on my list of recorders to check out.

Actually I don't think you've understood the post. -- Of course solid state cards aren't meant to be archived --similarly there is no point in storing all your archive data on a computer --what happens if the computer gets stolen, gets broken or you want to buy a new one --. By all means store music on to hard disks as archive --but you'll want to play the stuff sooner or later and hard disks do break as well.

You might also run into a problem in the future -- a new version of Windows / Linux or whatever appears with a totally new file format.

Have fun converting say 3,000 full CD's worth of archives.

I've been using MD's ever since the format came out --I still have a load of the 60 Min Md's as well --and I can honestly say that in over 10 years of using this stuff I have NEVER had a SINGLE MD failure..

With MD's you just file them away like CD's and when you want to play something just pop your MD into a nice deck / player etc connected to a really great set of studio quality speakers and enjoy - preferably with a nice glass of malt whisky - or whatever else takes your fancy. You don't need to be stuck in front of a computer listening to hideously lossy compressed music with with crappy over emphasized bass. Also if your player breaks you can always pop your MD into another one.

SP @ 292 is almost indistinguishable from the original CD -- and with 2 or 4X dubbing which I can do on my legacy gear -( have 2 CD<===>MD dual decks), I'm computer independent. In addition I have a JB980 deck - probably the "ferrari" equivalent of MD decks- which can also label tracks etc without needing a computer or an Internet connection. It also has an Optical Out and can even make LP2 recordings sound half way passable (although in a car LP2 is fine).

The other coment about creating Vinyl from blank recording media was only to emphasize the point that LONG AFTER the basic medium has finished or ceased to be a mainstream product you can still get blank media for donkeys years afterwards.

You can still get 8 track blank cassettes -- anybody remember those.

Cheers

-K

Edited July 1, 2008 by 1kyle