Uploading legacy files with SS and moving tracks

[Totalrod2]

If this has already been covered, could someone please kindly point me to the link where this is discussed. I haven't installed SonicStage on my computer yet. Before I do I have 2 questions. When I transfer the music from my minidiscs onto the computer, will it keep those songs in the same order? Also, once the songs are on my PC (in SonicStage) is it possible to move these tracks to another folder on my computer?

Bryan

[KJ_Palmer]

Not sure about the first questio, but you can certainly move any files in Sonicstage to any folder on your PC's hard drive, or indeed your whole music library. Just select the files you want, right click and select the Move File option.

[sfbp]

The short answer to the main part of your question is: you can't.

However if you bought a HiMD, AND you created the tracks on the disk yourself (live recording) in HiMD format (ie not SP, LP2 or LP4) then you CAN upload them.

Also if you bought an MZ-RH1, and you recorded things NOT from SonicStage in SP, LP2 or LP4, these ALSO can be uploaded.

All other bets are off. With a "genuine" NetMD (ie anything before HiMD) you simply cannot send anything to the computer via USB.

Hope this is what you need to know. To get the exact answer you probably need to tell us your exact model number.

Cheers

[Totalrod2]

Thanks for the quick replies. Okay, here's the skinny. I have a bunch of minidiscs that were recorded in LP2 mode using the Line-In (not USB) on my MZ N505 (circa 2002). I now have a MZ-M200 which I'll be using to transfer my discs to SonicStage. From there, I'd like to move them to the "My Music" Folder on my PC. So I'm a little confused. Is this possible? And when a minidisc is uploaded to SonicStage, will the songs remain in the same order as they were on the minidisc?

Bryan

Edited June 5, 2009 by Totalrod2

[Richard]

The answer is yes you can upload them with your MZ-M200 and regarding the second, I can't recall but I think it will put them in an "album" based on the disc name, but all the track info will come across as is including titles.

* Moved to software discussion section

[Totalrod2]

Well, the songs are not tagged. The only way I actually know what songs are playing, is the from the track listings sheets I have printed out. I hope they transfer to SonicStage in the same order as they appear on the minidiscs. Otherwise I'm not really sure how I'll identify ALL the tracks for tagging. There's around 900 tracks and it's all instrumental music (eg: Henry Mancini, Arthur Fiedler). I know, it sounds daunting. But I'll be copying/pasting the track listings into "MP3Tag". The typing is already done. Of course, if the songs on my minidiscs are NOT transferred to SonicStage in the exact same order, this task will be impossible (especially with this type of music). I guess I'll have to try it and see what happens.

Bryan (fingers crossed)

[Richard]

  Totalrod2 said:

Well, the songs are not tagged. The only way I actually know what songs are playing, is the from the track listings sheets I have printed out. I hope they transfer to SonicStage in the same order as they appear on the minidiscs. Otherwise I'm not really sure how I'll identify ALL the tracks for tagging. There's around 900 tracks and it's all instrumental music (eg: Henry Mancini, Arthur Fiedler). I know, it sounds daunting. But I'll be copying/pasting the track listings into "MP3Tag". The typing is already done. Of course, if the songs on my minidiscs are NOT transferred to SonicStage in the exact same order, this task will be impossible (especially with this type of music). I guess I'll have to try it and see what happens.

Bryan (fingers crossed)

Worst case scenario, after you have imported the tracks you can always sort them by date imported..

See this topic as well http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=22501

[sfbp]

  Totalrod2 said:

Well, the songs are not tagged. The only way I actually know what songs are playing, is the from the track listings sheets I have printed out. I hope they transfer to SonicStage in the same order as they appear on the minidiscs.

You can sit with headphones on and change their titles on the MD before you upload them. Any time you're not sure of a track, you listen to it and compare, using the position on the MD and the sound of the music to cross-correlate what you have got. As they are non-HiMD tracks, they will always play on the MD rather than on the PC at this juncture.

Once you have titled them on the MD, the upload will keep the title. Furthermore you can put them in groups on the MD, and title the groups. Doing this ensures that they arrive in the same group (each group becomes an "album") on the PC.

Further, once they are on the PC, you can add the artist names and such. The only problem with this is that the default for SonicStage sorting is by Artist, so tracks that you mislabel have a habit of running away from you.

Finally, one strong recommendation: use the "As is" setting when importing them. This makes sure that, since LP2 is a lossy format, nothing bad happens to them as a result of conversion. Of course when you finally make them into MP3 files, you are almost guaranteed to find that the sound is not great, but at least you can postpone it a bit - the uploaded tracks should at least sound as good as they do now when played on any other MD.

If you do all this, and need to convert them to MP3 or WAV, you can choose the destination of that conversion, later.

[Totalrod2]

Thanks Richyhu & Sfbp. I knew LP2 was lossy, which is why in all likelyhood, I'll probably do FLAC instead. But MP3Tag will work on FLAC files too, so I'm not too concerned about that. I will however need to get myself an external harddrive before I start doing anything. I imagine 900+ FLAC music files will eat up my PC's harddrive space rather quickly. Thanks again for answering all my questions.

Bryan

[sfbp]

  Totalrod2 said:

Thanks Richyhu & Sfbp. I knew LP2 was lossy, which is why in all likelyhood, I'll probably do FLAC instead. But MP3Tag will work on FLAC files too, so I'm not too concerned about that. I will however need to get myself an external harddrive before I start doing anything. I imagine 900+ FLAC music files will eat up my PC's harddrive space rather quickly. Thanks again for answering all my questions.

Bryan

The files are already IN LP2. So it doesn't matter what you do with them, unless you keep them as LP2 the sound will get worse. It's not clear to me that introducing *any* new format such as FLAC is going to help that problem in the least. If you want to keep on hearing them as they sound now, keep a MD player around. If you can get a HiMD you can at least get 16+ hours (of LP2) on a 1GB disk. I can vouch for the fact that the quality does NOT degrade when you upload LP2 or LP4 with the RH1 and then transfer those files intact to HiMD.

[Avrin]

FLAC will be almost useless here. It will only make bigger files, compared to LP2.

I would upload the files, un-DRM them immediately (if they are DRMed), and then store them as they are. Sorting un-DRMed files is not a very pleasant task, since SonicStage places them all to the Optimized Files folder during the process, but you'll get your original quality recordings playable by anything (don't forget that unprotected LP2/LP4 is perfectly playable by Windows Media Player with an ATRAC3 codeс without SonicStage installed).

Edited June 6, 2009 by Avrin

[sfbp]

  Avrin said:

FLAC will be almost useless here. It will only make bigger files, compared to LP2.

Agree.

  Quote

I would upload the files, un-DRM them immediately (if they are DRMed), and then store them as they are.

Agree.

  Quote

Sorting un-DRMed files is not a very pleasant task, since SonicStage places them all to the Optimized Files folder during the process,

No way. The unencrypter puts the files in the exact same folder the DRM'd version was , with .OMA extension instead of .oma. Maybe this is due to some setting and if so, I would be glad to try and figure out what it is. I note in passing that I never check the box that says "Delete the source (OpenMG) files after conversion". On my machine no sorting whatsoever is required, assuming they were well-organized after upload but before conversion.

  Quote

but you'll get your original quality recordings playable by anything (don't forget that unprotected LP2/LP4 is perfectly playable by Windows Media Player with an ATRAC3 codeс without SonicStage installed).

This I had forgotten about. Care to remind us what steps, if any, have to be followed to make this happen, and to which version of WMP they apply? I have steadfastly refused to upgrade from V.9 after hearing that some things got worse - was that the right thing to do? It still prompts me with monotonous regularity at the end of each session.....

Added: I tried it from both machines that already run SonicStage, so I guess that was enough. Sadly I don't think I have one with WMP9 that hasn't ever had a SS install on it.... if that matters.

[Avrin]

  sfbp said:

No way. The unencrypter puts the files in the exact same folder the DRM'd version was , with .OMA extension instead of .oma.

This is great news. I didn't know that, since I very rarely upload anything.

  sfbp said:

This I had forgotten about. Care to remind us what steps, if any, have to be followed to make this happen, and to which version of WMP they apply?

This actually applies to almost any Windows audio program. Download the codec from http://www.minidisc.org/atrac3.zip - then unzip the file, right-click on ATRAC3.inf, and choose Install (you may see a Windows Logo warning, just continue anyway). After that the codec is available to all Windows programs as a standard Windows codec. Double-click an oma file (assuming the filetype is not registered to SonicStage), and choose "Select the program from a list", then select Windows Media Player. Ignore the extension warning.

Not sure about how Windows Media Player handles gapless playback though.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Avrin

[sfbp]

  Avrin said:

This actually applies to almost any Windows audio program. Download the codec from http://www.minidisc.org/atrac3.zip - then unzip the file, right-click on ATRAC3.inf, and choose Install (you may see a Windows Logo warning, just continue anyway). After that the codec is available to all Windows programs as a standard Windows codec. Double-click an oma file (assuming the filetype is not registered to SonicStage), and choose "Select the program from a list", then select Windows Media Player. Ignore the extension warning.

I'm still trying to figure it out - worked even on machine that AFAIK did not have SS installed, ever.

Also - and this seems odd, at least to simple moi - playback of AAL files was handled without so much as a hiccough. By WMP.

Now THAT needs some explaining, please......

[Avrin]

Weren't these AAL files encoded with a 132 kbit/s lossy part by any chance? If yes, WMP probably just played the lossy part using the codec.

[sfbp]

No, they were not. Straight from WAV files using the convert function provided by Sony.

[Avrin]

Do they play on the machine that never had SS installed, or on a machine with SS? In the latter case, they are played back by WMP using SS components (same as ATRAC3plus files).

[sfbp]

Seem to be on the machine with no SS. But as you say, it works on Atrac3+ files too, decrypted ones. Funny thing, no sign of any Atrac Codecs, or knowledge by WMP. Where should I look?

I did find a very few bits and pieces under Program Files\Sony

A w2K machine with no history of SS, no go.

[Avrin]

I don't know exactly which files are used by WMP to play ATRAC3plus. Maybe some components are left from an old installation. They may reside in the Program Files\Sony folder, in the Common Files\Sony Shared folder, or even in the WINDOWS\SYSTEM32 folder.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Avrin

[sfbp]

Interesting because it means that since SonicStage is effectively free for anyone to download, at least at the moment, you can play Atrac files on a computer with little problem.

What makes me curious is that the AAL is apparently quite simply related to the more "mainstream" Atrac Codecs. This seems like a good thing esp. since it is never encrypted, apparently.

[Totalrod2]

Hmm....I hope I can ask this without sounding too "anti-minidisc". But what format can I convert my transferred files to, without further audio loss? WAV files? I want to be able to play my music on other portable media devices (like a Sansa). I find the Atrac format VERY limiting. But who knew, back when I first started making minidiscs. Heck, the ipod didn't even exsist back then.

Bryan

Edited June 6, 2009 by Totalrod2

[sfbp]

You can certainly convert to WAV. However any attempt to compress those wave files will likely make a nasty mess. Specifically Atrac3 (MDLP) -> mp3 really doesn't work well at all in my experience. Perhaps someone else knows better.....

I also, I think, suffered the reverse problem. A CD which I eventually guessed might have been made from MP3's wouldn't copy decently to ATRAC3.

[Totalrod2]

Thanks again for all your help. I have just one more question. I started installing SonicStage but I stopped it halfway through. The reason being, at the bottom of the "installation list" I saw something that really scared me. It said "my music files" (or something to that effect). Is this installation going to automatically import ALL my music into SonicStage? Because I definately DON'T want that!

Bryan

[sfbp]

  Avrin said:

Download the codec from http://www.minidisc.org/atrac3.zip - then unzip the file, right-click on ATRAC3.inf, and choose Install (you may see a Windows Logo warning, just continue anyway). After that the codec is available to all Windows programs as a standard Windows codec. Double-click an oma file (assuming the filetype is not registered to SonicStage), and choose "Select the program from a list", then select Windows Media Player. Ignore the extension warning.

Tried this on a W2K machine that hasnt had Sony software before. Codec shows up in list. No play.

Interesting - on the machines where it DOES play, the ATRAC codec doesnt show in the list.

[Avrin]

Totalrod2, versions of SonicStage starting from 4.0 do not import your music by default during installation.

  sfbp said:

Tried this on a W2K machine that hasnt had Sony software before. Codec shows up in list. No play.

Interesting - on the machines where it DOES play, the ATRAC codec doesnt show in the list.

Just checked this by removing SonicStage, OpenMG, and all traces of them from my machine. No ATRAC3 files play anymore. But to hell with the old decoder! There's a newer one that also plays ATRAC3plus: http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=22542

Edited June 7, 2009 by Avrin

[Totalrod2]

  Avrin said:

Totalrod2, versions of SonicStage starting from 4.0 do not import your music by default during installation.

Wow, thanks Arvin! I'm glad I stopped the installation when I did. I was using a cd with SonicStage 3.4 on it. I would've lost almost 2000 MP3's that are on my PC! I wonder how many people found this out the hard way.

Bryan

[sfbp]

  Totalrod2 said:

Wow, thanks Arvin! I'm glad I stopped the installation when I did. I was using a cd with SonicStage 3.4 on it. I would've lost almost 2000 MP3's that are on my PC! I wonder how many people found this out the hard way.

Bryan

Does 3.4 do *anything* with MP3's??? Shows how much I know, I almost don't use them (MP3) anyway.

[Totalrod2]

  sfbp said:

Does 3.4 do *anything* with MP3's??? Shows how much I know, I almost don't use them (MP3) anyway.

I don't know, and I'm not about to find out! MP3's are sooo much more versitile. I would've been mad as hell if they were automatically converted to something that was going to restrict my playing capabilities. I'm going to install the latest SonicStage after I finish removing all the Sony stuff that was installed in my registry. Actually, I spent nearly an hour manually removing 75 files (that's a rough estimate). But I see there's hundreds more to go! There's GOT to be an easier way than this. I'm a stickler for keeping my computer clean. This is a nightmare.

Bryan

[sfbp]

Don't sweat it - SS 4.x will remove any old installation files, I think.

Ever since I discovered (for myself, never took anyone's word for this) that you cannot convert decently ATRAC3->MP3 or vice-versa I have avoided MP3 like the plague. And at comparable bit rates the ATRAC sounds so much better!

I seriously think that you should consider NOT converting the files you have on MD.

[Totalrod2]

  sfbp said:

Don't sweat it - SS 4.x will remove any old installation files, I think.

Well it's done. I eventually found a pattern in which (most of) the keys/subkeys & values were installed and was able to delete them with relative ease (WITHOUT having to read through every single one to make sure I didn't delete any important system files). You've got to be careful when you're in the registry. If you're searching for "omg" you'll get files like: "HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\ATPFringe.OmgATPFormatChecker". Start deleting things like that, and you'll be looking at a complete re-install of Windows! Now I can install a newer version of SonicStage.

  Quote

Ever since I discovered (for myself, never took anyone's word for this) that you cannot convert decently ATRAC3->MP3 or vice-versa I have avoided MP3 like the plague. And at comparable bit rates the ATRAC sounds so much better!

I seriously think that you should consider NOT converting the files you have on MD.

The thing is, I want to listen to this stuff on my Sansa (I know, it's blasphemy). I agree with you though. Minidiscs do sound much better than MP3's of comparable bitrates. When I transfer my music over to SonicStage, I'll still have the music on my minidiscs though....won't I? Or will this leave my minidiscs blank afterwards? If that's the case maybe I should give this some more thought.

Bryan

[Totalrod2]

Just thought I'd add this. I have no intentions of even trying to convert to mp3's. If you say it won't work, then that's good enough for me! My Sansa plays FLAC (lossless). So what I was hoping to do was to convert all my music to WAV's (no audio loss there, right?). Then those WAV files can be directly converted into FLAC. In theory it sounds like it would work. I know FLAC files aren't that much smaller than WAV's (anywhere from 20% to 50% smaller, depending on the file) , but when you have just so much space on a micoSD card, every gigabyte counts. Hope I haven't veered too far off topic here!

Bryan

Edited June 8, 2009 by Totalrod2

[sfbp]

Before you get all tooled up suggest you try it with one file. I don't have any prediction whether it will work (by "work" I mean produce acceptable sound). There have been lots of things that I thought would be obvious that turned out not to be: I *assumed* that importing as PCM (highest bitrate), and then converting to ATRAC3 to put on whatever device, would work properly. Turns out, it doesn't. Your scheme, while sounding right in principle, is attempting to do something rather similar. Caveat Emptor!