FiiO Headphone Amp

[Deleted Member]

Deleted by author.

[BIGHMW]

Ahh, yes, the good folks over at Head-Fi knew about FiiO over a year ago, when the E3 came out. The E5 is even better, and even includes an optional bass boost and its own volume control. It works great with the phones out but sounds (and performs) even better through a line output.

The line out is perfect for those who use 24-300 ohm full-size headphones and also with higher impedence IEM's and buds as well.

For more details on FiiO, log onto http://www.FiiO.com.cn

Edited July 4, 2009 by BIGHMW

[tekdroid]

Plus, European versions (AEP, UK, EE) have their output signal passing through additional resistors (similar to the European NH600) to decrease output power.

Just curious on what AEP and EE stand for.

The amp outputs of my Australian models have always been lacking for real hi-fi headphone use, so IMO there's not a snowflake's chance in hell of being even close to causing deafness, or any real enjoyment with bigger phones, for that matter

The French law sounds a lot like gov bureaucrats in charge of parenting, by the way.

My thoughts on this FiiO headphone amp, just by looking at it:

* non-removable battery

* shaped as an iPod Shuffle clone

No further comment necessary

Edited July 4, 2009 by tekdroid

[Abby Normal]

My best guess is AEP refers to US-AEP, the US-Asia Environmental Partnership--but that doesn't make much sense because AEP is some European reference, and EE stands for Eastern Europe.

On the other hand, it's looks like it would blend in quite well as an MZ-RH1 accessory and it is rechargable via USB(always a plus).

Just curious on what AEP and EE stand for.

.... by the way.

My thoughts on this FiiO headphone amp, just by looking at it:

* non-removable battery

* shaped as an iPod Shuffle clone

No further comment necessary

Edited July 4, 2009 by narp

[Abby Normal]

AEP must be some acronym derived from a Japanese phrase. When I search on references to combinations of these acronyms it always points back to Sony. AED = Northern European--huh?

[Deleted Member]

Deleted by author.

[tekdroid]

* Just have the E5 recycled when the battery is dead (after 1000 recharges)?

* What's an 'iPod Shuffle'?

It's a question of what's most important to you: size (E5 is small, I'll give it that.. but they could have done that while making the batt removable, too)

or

longevity (no need to dispose it when battery finally dies)

and

practicality of switching a battery in without forced downtime, anytime, anywhere.

Most Li-Ion batts are rated at about 500 charge cycles, with environmental and charging factors playing a big part in the variability (they don't like heat, etc). Ni-MH eneloops do 1,000 - if manufacturers can be believed - but they have diffrent chemistry. Regular Ni-MH aren't rated more than a few hundred.

I don't reward bad design (at least not willingly). What is the point of throwing out a unit, even a cheap one, if it doesn't need to be thrown out? There's some circuitry in there doing the work, why toss that out when the battery ends its useful life? Why not actually keep a device that theoretically last for decades with decent care? Their E3 design seems to be far better in this regard, and allows for quick batterry swaps when it decides to crap out on you in a listening session. Convenience. I haven't tried any of these, btw.

IF we can switch the argument to Sony noise-cancelling phones. Who here would like an integrated, non-removable battery in those? And why? Makes no sense. What we have here is far too many companies copying Apple's bad practices. They are applying the 'no user-replaceable batteries' philosophy in their laptops too. Shameful, inconvenient, surgery-replacement-hell and should not be rewarded, IMO.

Edited July 5, 2009 by tekdroid

[Abby Normal]

A couple of things that are worth exploring here.

1. These days, the rechargable batteries we replace aren't merely batteries. Guess what? They're actually gadgets unto themselves with not a little bit of circuitry built in. Have you ever taken apart a Dell laptop battery? There's more circuitry in there than that little amp, I'll guarantee you that. If the FiiO E5 is little more than a glorified battery that just happens to have some amplification circuits built-in, it changes the picture a little bit doesn't it?
2. I'm not a fan of Apple--not by a long shot--but I was moved by their explanation that the components that make a battery user-replaceable take up a significant amount of space which could be used for more battery. Anyway, that's become a moot point. There are videos all over that show that the Macbook Air battery is at least enthusiast replaceable.

What is the point of throwing out a unit, even a cheap one, if it doesn't need to be thrown out? There's some circuitry in there doing the work, why toss that out when the battery ends its useful life? Why not actually keep a device that theoretically last for decades with decent care?....

....What we have here is far too many companies copying Apple's bad practices. They are applying the 'no user-replaceable batteries' philosophy in their laptops too. Shameful, inconvenient, surgery-replacement-hell and should not be rewarded, IMO.

[tekdroid]

A couple of things that are worth exploring here.

1. These days, the rechargable batteries we replace aren't merely batteries. Guess what? They're actually gadgets unto themselves with not a little bit of circuitry built in. Have you ever taken apart a Dell laptop battery? There's more circuitry in there than that little amp, I'll guarantee you that. If the FiiO E5 is little more than a glorified battery that just happens to have some amplification circuits built-in, it changes the picture a little bit doesn't it?

Taken apart Li-Ion batteries and understand your point, but at the end of the day it's still more waste, not less. It's still less convenience not being able to swap out a battery without downtime, too. I just see no advantages at all. Can you?

I'm not a fan of Apple--not by a long shot--but I was moved by their explanation that the components that make a battery user-replaceable take up a significant amount of space which could be used for more battery. Anyway, that's become a moot point. There are videos all over that show that the Macbook Air battery is at least enthusiast replaceable.

Re: space. Mobile phones of all descriptions use removables. I don't see the space argument really coming up. If anything, I see it more of a 'sleek' seamless design aesthetic that they are going for. There are Air competitors with full removable batteries at equal or very similar dimensions with more features. There are iPhone competitors with removables. I don't see space being an issue at all.

re: enthusiast replaceability: all of them are 'enthusiast' replaceable if we want to be honest (iPods included), but enthusiasts who do surgery on hardware are a very small percentage. Plus Apple has Macbooks with no removable battery too. Surgery often means voiding the warranty and a delicate procdure with risks, and it still means not having the flexibility of easy battery swaps when one runs down temporarily away from an outlet or computer with USB port. Benefits? What are the they? I wish I knew.

Here we have a little amp...that's fine. Maybe it sounds good, maybe it doesn't. Nice choice in the market. Not so much additional waste tossing it out along with expired battery, but still it's needless waste. Still more needless inconvenience to be forced to recharge when perhaps you might want a spare battery, too. Anyway, from an environmental standpoint, multiply this by thousands or millions of devices without removable batteries (with far more substantiial electronics, LCDs, levels of toxicity)... and you start to see a bigger picture forming. The benefits?

Would the market be better off with cameras, phones, computers, little amps like this...everything having an embedded battery, non-replaceable by the average user? Would the environment? Would your wallet? I say no.

In case you haven't guessed, I think their E3 model is better...wthout having tried any of them, btw.

Edited July 5, 2009 by tekdroid

[Abby Normal]

Taken apart Li-Ion batteries and understand your point, but at the end of the day it's still more waste, not less. It's still less convenience not being able to swap out a battery without downtime, too. I just see no advantages at all. Can you?

Manufacturing. Neither you nor I have done the analysis on this particular unit. It's possible that adding a screw here or a clip there would contribute to more e-waste, not less. Besides, the battery life on these devices is pretty good and USB ports are fairly ubiquitous. Perhaps it isn't as inconvenient as you would believe. I own three 1gb capacity sandisk "clip" players (OLED display, btw) that have the same "problem". So, let's go back to my "glorified battery" assertion. You can have 2 or 3 of these amps, they are certainly cheap enough. If you run out of juice, go to your spare--just like a battery. You're also keeping them out of the landfill longer by distributing use across more than one unit--but that's stretching the argument a bit, but only a little.

Re: space. Mobile phones of all descriptions use removables. I don't see the space argument really coming up. If anything, I see it more of a 'sleek' seamless design aesthetic that they are going for. There are Air competitors with full removable batteries at equal or very similar dimensions with more features. There are iPhone competitors with removables. I don't see space being an issue at all.

It's true I would've been more impressed with Apple's argument if the battery life had actually been significantly longer.

..., and it still means not having the flexibility of easy battery swaps when one runs down temporarily away from an outlet or computer with USB port. Benefits? What are the they? I wish I knew.

The battery life gains was supposed to be the answer to that riddle, too. Unfortunately, it was smoke and mirrors and--as you pointed out--more about the sex appeal than utility. Did I mention I'm not an Apple fan?

Here we have a little amp...that's fine. Maybe it sounds good, maybe it doesn't. Nice choice in the market. Not so much additional waste tossing it out along with expired battery, but still it's needless waste. Still more needless inconvenience to be forced to recharge when perhaps you might want a spare battery, too. Anyway, from an environmental standpoint, multiply this by thousands or millions of devices without removable batteries (with far more substantiial electronics, LCDs, levels of toxicity)... and you start to see a bigger picture forming. The benefits?

Here I'm optimistic about the future of e-waste recycling. I see the E5 absolutely less harmful than a laptop battery--no doubt about it. I know it's a bit of putting the cart before the horse, but I really believe e-waste recycling will help here a lot.

Would the market be better off with cameras, phones, computers, little amps like this...everything having an embedded battery, non-replaceable by the average user? Would the environment? Would your wallet? I say no.

I largely agree with you here. I'm hoping battery endurance increases or some other paradigm shift takes place (something like fuel cells, but that has its problems, too). I still think that with the evolution of integration and miniaturization that it is inevitable that we'll see more of this, not less. I don't think we can stop it, but we can effect a real change that can minimize the impact. Invest in ewaste recycling research and infrastructure.

In case you haven't guessed, I think their E3 model is better...wthout having tried any of them, btw.

While not a big deal for me, for others it is apples and oranges. The E5 has the bass boost switch and the E3 does not.

[Abby Normal]

It didn't take me long to find what I was looking for. Someone laid the E5 bare with some nice pics. By the way, all these huge pictures don't really give you a good idea how tiny it is. 190mAh liOn battery with the leads soldered to a chip on the board.

Inside the FiiO E5

Even if you did have it manufactured to accept removable batteries, it is tiny enough to cause problems where you'd wear it out quicker and thus have to add another one to the landfill more quickly. It would also be appreciably larger. LiOn batteries last a long time, though. I don't know why companies experimented with LiPoly--I have never seen a LiPoly battery that had any shelf life to speak of.

So really, enthusiasts could easily replace this battery, even without touching the board end of the leads. Although it would be better to install some better leads with some standard battery terminals. This battery looks a lot like the write-cache battery I have on my SAS/SATA RAID controller, only much smaller.

Edited July 5, 2009 by narp

[tekdroid]

Even if you did have it manufactured to accept removable batteries, it is tiny enough to cause problems where you'd wear it out quicker and thus have to add another one to the landfill more quickly. It would also be appreciably larger.

Nice dissection.

How would be appreciably larger or wear out sooner or add to landfill more quickly?

All that would be required is a plastic piece that slides off.

It can be one like the MZ-NH600, that opens but doesn't totally disconnect so you can't lose it. Or it can be the whole back piece that slides off like a TV remote control. The battery could also have direct contacts like most do in mobile phones. If not, a simple detachable connector at the end of those wires, much like some older Pansonic cordless phones had. Stick it in, shut the case. All it takes is a slightly different design, and it doesn't need to be much bigger than what it is (if that).

Like you mentioned, you can buy two of these units and connect the other one if one goes flat and you're away from power. It's an option since the cost is low. Many other embedded battery devices dont have this option. By the way, that battery doesn't look like it has any circuitry inside it, but I could be wrong. Seems to be all on the PCB there.

Either way, we have money and we have choices. I am not a fan of the design at all, or the extra waste of disposing of embedded battery devices as opposed to just the battery. I don't expect everyone to feel the same, it's just personal choice. Thanks again for the pics.

[Abby Normal]

Nice dissection.

How would be appreciably larger or wear out sooner or add to landfill more quickly?

All that would be required is a plastic piece that slides off.

It can be one like the MZ-NH600, that opens but doesn't totally disconnect so you can't lose it. Or it can be the whole back piece that slides off like a TV remote control. The battery could also have direct contacts like most do in mobile phones. If not, a simple detachable connector at the end of those wires, much like some older Pansonic cordless phones had. Stick it in, shut the case. All it takes is a slightly different design, and it doesn't need to be much bigger than what it is (if that).

I thoroughly disagree. You'd need to add a lot more material just to create a separate battery compartment/contacts. If you don't, the PCB will be damaged quickly and *plop* there it goes into the landfill. The PCBs are not made of adamantium. You can't just throw a couple of contacts in there. It is a very efficient use of the space. Also, try to get a handle on just how tiny it is:

That's a first-gen nano in the second pic.

Like you mentioned, you can buy two of these units and connect the other one if one goes flat and you're away from power. It's an option since the cost is low. Many other embedded battery devices dont have this option. By the way, that battery doesn't look like it has any circuitry inside it, but I could be wrong. Seems to be all on the PCB there.

My point about circuitry on a battery was to contrast with what replaceable battery modules on laptops look like. I never implied that all batteries have circuits boards.

Either way, we have money and we have choices. I am not a fan of the design at all, or the extra waste of disposing of embedded battery devices as opposed to just the battery. I don't expect everyone to feel the same, it's just personal choice. Thanks again for the pics.

You say it's extra waste, but again, I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree here. The size of these amps just don't allow that much flexibility regarding what we're talking about.

It's pretty moot anyway, since I've been largely playing devil's advocate here. I don't care for it--it's too small. I'd sit on it, lose it, accidentally eat it--whatever. I'm more inclined to get something like this (this is probably going to be split into another thread):

Bass Boost cMoy v2.02 Headphone Amplifier

It's built to last, has plenty of room, uses replaceable batteries--I have plenty of NiMH rechargable 9 volt batteries laying around, and it looks really cool (IMHO). I use a separate NiMH charger for all my rechargeable batteries. You could not charge in this unit anyway. The circuit automatically disconnects the battery when you attach the AC adapter (yes--if you want, you can save your battery juice for when you need it). Pretty cool.

Edited July 5, 2009 by narp

[BIGHMW]

It's a question of what's most important to you: size (E5 is small, I'll give it that.. but they could have done that while making the batt removable, too)

or

longevity (no need to dispose it when battery finally dies)

and

practicality of switching a battery in without forced downtime, anytime, anywhere.

Most Li-Ion batts are rated at about 500 charge cycles, with environmental and charging factors playing a big part in the variability (they don't like heat, etc). Ni-MH eneloops do 1,000 - if manufacturers can be believed - but they have diffrent chemistry. Regular Ni-MH aren't rated more than a few hundred.

I don't reward bad design (at least not willingly). What is the point of throwing out a unit, even a cheap one, if it doesn't need to be thrown out? There's some circuitry in there doing the work, why toss that out when the battery ends its useful life? Why not actually keep a device that theoretically last for decades with decent care? Their E3 design seems to be far better in this regard, and allows for quick batterry swaps when it decides to crap out on you in a listening session. Convenience. I haven't tried any of these, btw.

IF we can switch the argument to Sony noise-cancelling phones. Who here would like an integrated, non-removable battery in those? And why? Makes no sense. What we have here is far too many companies copying Apple's bad practices. They are applying the 'no user-replaceable batteries' philosophy in their laptops too. Shameful, inconvenient, surgery-replacement-hell and should not be rewarded, IMO.

Although I went to a slew of Sony NW-HD5 HDD Network Walkmen (all with user-replaceable/rechargeable batteries with up to 40 hrs. of life per charge), it's a good thing I still have all of my MD/Hi-MD units with "AA" battery capability.

500 charge cycles per battery doesn't seem like an awful lot to me, and although I do have enough spare batteries to last me for years, I know that I will (soon) have to go back to my trusty MZ-NH700 for playback for the long run.

[tekdroid]

I thoroughly disagree. You'd need to add a lot more material just to create a separate battery compartment/contacts.

This is basically what I'm trying to illustrate. All that would be needed is a thin plastic layer (mould) separating PCB from battery compartment and the connector can be made so much smaller than shown here in this pic of an old-school Panasonic cordless phone. Also when I mentioned the battery didn't look like it had circuitry on-board I wasn't suggesting you said that all do, but it does mean far less waste when replacing.

But personally I think contacts direct on the battery are a much more elegant solution and easily done.

You say it's extra waste, but again, I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree here. The size of these amps just don't allow that much flexibility regarding what we're talking about.

I see plenty of scope for keeping the size small and battery replaceable. It's a question of design and intent, nothing much to it (and virtually no cost burden, if that).

It's pretty moot anyway, since I've been largely playing devil's advocate here. I don't care for it--it's too small. I'd sit on it, lose it, accidentally eat it--whatever. I'm more inclined to get something like this (this is probably going to be split into another thread):

See, that thing I have no doubt is nice, but is way too big for me.

It's built to last, has plenty of room, uses replaceable batteries--I have plenty of NiMH rechargable 9 volt batteries laying around, and it looks really cool (IMHO). I use a separate NiMH charger for all my rechargeable batteries. You could not charge in this unit anyway. The circuit automatically disconnects the battery when you attach the AC adapter (yes--if you want, you can save your battery juice for when you need it). Pretty cool.

I prefer separate chargers and like common battery sizes but I realise they are not for all devices. Just saying that for clarification in case you think I want AAs in everything I am OK with proprietary batts. Especially with more common devices, we have no shortage of third-party battery vendors offering equivalents for OK prices and as long as that's the case (and as long as I don't have to do surgery on the case!), I'm fine with 'em. That looks nice, but again too big for me.

BIGHMW... I got lots of batteries too and an added benefit of common sizes (in addition to supplies eventually drying up with proprietary batts) is use in multiple devices. I do have a soft spot for MD units that use AA, though!

Edited July 9, 2009 by tekdroid

[Giant_Rick]

Can you set the volume on the amp? How much is it?

[Abby Normal]

Which one--the little postage stamp sized unit or the big honking one in the mint tin? Click the links--you'll find out.

Can you set the volume on the amp? How much is it?

[Giant_Rick]

Which one--the little postage stamp sized unit or the big honking one in the mint tin? Click the links--you'll find out.

I mean the first you said; thank you for the hint, I'll check it right now!

[Strungup]

I bought Both the FiiO E3 , and the E5 , I gave the E3 to my Kid , and I use the E5 .

I have a Pair of Sennheiser HD215 's that cant use with the MD portables because they just dont have enough to drive them .

My Opinion , The E3 will add to the Bigger Cans quite well , but definately NOT for the In Ear buds . or Lower impedance phones ( 16 ohms , I was getting hiss in the background even with nothing coming thru ) The load is really set for Bigger cans . which it does nicely .

The E5 , Worked with BOTH my Sennheiser Hd215 's , and the AKG K420 's very well ... wider sound field , better detail . Not a HUGE jump in Volume ( Didnt want a Huge jump just some extra power ) which it gives .

I was pleasantly surprised with them .

My 2 cents .

[BIGHMW]

I bought Both the FiiO E3 , and the E5 , I gave the E3 to my Kid , and I use the E5 .

I have a Pair of Sennheiser HD215 's that cant use with the MD portables because they just dont have enough to drive them .

My Opinion , The E3 will add to the Bigger Cans quite well , but definately NOT for the In Ear buds . or Lower impedance phones ( 16 ohms , I was getting hiss in the background even with nothing coming thru ) The load is really set for Bigger cans . which it does nicely .

The E5 , Worked with BOTH my Sennheiser Hd215 's , and the AKG K420 's very well ... wider sound field , better detail . Not a HUGE jump in Volume ( Didnt want a Huge jump just some extra power ) which it gives .

I was pleasantly surprised with them .

My 2 cents .

Right on T.C.

I also have both the E3 and E5, and basically I enjoy using the E5 mainly with my MDR-NC60 (and the Japanese Version, with the Japan-only shorter [0.5m) cord at that!) noise canceling cans and my NW-HD5 and it just sounds great, and definitely better than straight (unamped) from the phones jack, although I know than driving it through a line-level output will give it even more ooomph in there.