Sony PCM-M10

[ozpeter]

The new Sony PCM-M10 is garnering some favourable end-user and test comments, eg -

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/naturerecordists/messages/38949?threaded=1&m=e&var=1&tidx=1

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/naturerecordists/message/38965

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124639.225

(work backwards in that last forum).

I see it as the successor to the RH-1 HiMD recorder in some ways.

[Transistor]

I didn't really need another recorder but this looked so good I just could not help it. It's my Xmas present.

I got a red one for $280 shipped from Beach Camera. Ordered on Saturday, arrived on Tuesday.

And even if the red is more like burgundy, all I can say is: Wow. .wav recording and mp3. 4GB built in (125 hours of quality mp3) and a MicroSD slot. Good built-in mics, line and mic inputs, simple USB connection.

No, it's not the lightest unit in the world. I could live without the built-in speaker. But it feels solid. The display is gorgeous and sensible. The controls you need are buttons and knobs (recording level), not menus. The menus hold all kinds of useful settings and tweaks, like better battery metering for NiMH batteries and "Cross Memory Recording" so if you use up the 4GB it automatically spills over onto the microSD. Battery life, by all reports (like that Wingfield Audio review), is monstrous.

I guess most Sony Insider folks are into playback gadgets, but this thing looks like a very useful high-quality (and affordable) pocket recorder. Are ozpeter and I the only ones who care?

[laidler]

Hey guys, can this little Walkman like beauty play and record directly to something plugged into the USB port or is it all the internal and micro SD slot? Would be great if it could play directly from say an external hard drive. Anyway, thanks guys, James.

[Transistor]

It's not a computer. It's a portable recorder. If you want to record on/play something plugged into a USB port, get a laptop.

How much more could you possibly want to play or record than 4GB plus 16GB (eventually 32GB)? And how would you expect it to power a big external drive from 2 AA batteries?

Hey guys, can this little Walkman like beauty play and record directly to something plugged into the USB port or is it all the internal and micro SD slot? Would be great if it could play directly from say an external hard drive. Anyway, thanks guys, James.

[laidler]

I was unaware of the power plant of this machine. Since even HI-MDs are cheaper per unit than equivalent SD cards I might just try getting one of those. Unless someone knows where one would find RELIABLE micro SD cards for less than 7 dollars with at least 1 gig on them that is.

[Transistor]

Hi-MD used to be fairly cheap per GB.

Not any more.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=4gb+microsd&x=0&y=0

[laidler]

Hi-MD used to be fairly cheap per GB.

Not any more.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=4gb+microsd&x=0&y=0

If you know where to look they're cheaper. Ebay has many new 5 packs for 28 dollars or so, which is still per GB cheaper than micro SD, never stick with only the standard retail sites, to find the better deals one must branch out. I a couple years ago bought such a 5 pack for a friend for that price too, and they are still that price, assuming the seller hasn't had their brain removed and think they can overcharge for them. Case in point, here. http://cgi.ebay.com/SONY-HMD-1G-5-MINI-DISC-DISCS-1-GB-MiniDisc-Hi-MD-1GB_W0QQitemZ380191053335QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Blank_Media?hash=item5885271617

[Transistor]

Well...at Amazon you can get a 4GB microSD for about $10, shipping included. 8GB about $20. Even less per GB for the physically larger SD cards.

Or you can get 5GB of Hi-MD for $32 shipped. Not a saving.

Personally I wouldn't go for the Hi-MD option simply to use as storage.

Regular MDs, used, on eBay, may come out to slightly less per GB than Hi-MD, but still about the same price per GB as microSD--and they do start to take up a lot of shelf space.

If you know where to look they're cheaper. Ebay has many new 5 packs for 28 dollars or so, which is still per GB cheaper than micro SD, never stick with only the standard retail sites, to find the better deals one must branch out. I a couple years ago bought such a 5 pack for a friend for that price too, and they are still that price, assuming the seller hasn't had their brain removed and think they can overcharge for them. Case in point, here. http://cgi.ebay.com/...=item5885271617

[sfbp]

Hmm, was in my local store (London Drugs) yesterday. They had several Sony (and other makes of) recorder(s) but the only one even close to the PCM-M10 was on for $299 and called the ICD-SX700D. Does anyone know anything about this?

[kdj432]

I've had my PCM-M10 for about a month now and I can't figure out how to make it sound as good as my MZ-M100. I bought it thinking it would sound as good with the ease of transferring files to my computer. I don't know if it's the built in eq on the M100 but I don't think so, I'm using the same mic with both and the normal sound setting sounds better on the M100. I hate having to use Sonic Stage but I haven't figured out how to beat the sound of my minidisk. If I can't find a fix I Think I might sell the M10.

[tharmon]

I have always loved my MZ-RH1.in fact I have worn one out and am about to wear out my second one now. I have looked at the Sony PCM-M10 and it looks like a great recorder. However, there is one function I need to confirm before I buy it. I like the ability to set and predefine track markers with mini disc players. I usually set the tracks at four minutes. I record radio programs throughout the night and when I get up in the morning, I'm able to listen to those long recordings sometimes up 10 hours. It's very nice to be able to fast forward at four minute clips thereby bypassing advertisements and the news, which is enabled by the four-minute automatic track marks. I do not see where this is possible with the PCM M10. I see there's a fast-forward button on the front. But the online user manual talks about fast forwarding at 6 second intervals which does me no good at all.

Can somebody familiar with the PCM-M10 explain to me if this dilemma that I described can be resolved through the folder file system on the M. 10? Or possibly I'm overlooking some additional tracking function that is similar to my old RH1?

thank you for your help. Tom

[A440]

I have the PCM-M10, and as far as I can tell (and I've looked at the manual) there's no time mark or automatic divide.

However, there's no SonicStage nonsense to deal with about uploading tracks. You can connect the PCM-M10 to your computer and it works just like another hard drive. So if you have any editing program, like the free CDwave (which will detect silences and put track breaks there) you can chop a long track into short ones without taking them off the PCM-M10. Obviously it's not as easy as already having the tracks cut up, but it would work.

[tharmon]

I have the PCM-M10, and as far as I can tell (and I've looked at the manual) there's no time mark or automatic divide.

However, there's no SonicStage nonsense to deal with about uploading tracks. You can connect the PCM-M10 to your computer and it works just like another hard drive. So if you have any editing program, like the free CDwave (which will detect silences and put track breaks there) you can chop a long track into short ones without taking them off the PCM-M10. Obviously it's not as easy as already having the tracks cut up, but it would work.

Thank you so much for your reply. A couple more questions: I downloaded CDWave and like the way it enables the entry of track markers. But I wonder if the PCM-M10 reads the track markers made by CDWave?? I notice that my CD player does not recognize the track markers once a long cut has been burned to CD. Which button/function on the PCM-M10 do you use to advance to the next track set by the track mark? Can you easily go forward and backwards with these markers?

Also, have you ever used a mini-disc recorder? My Sony is smaller than the PCM-M10 and I like the smallness of my old Sony. But maybe the PCM-M10 is not significantly bigger?

Thanks again for your help... Tom

[sfbp]

$123 for the ICD-SX750 (weight: 2oz plus 2 AAA batteries) is hard to beat.

Take a look at this thread (sorry to be a bore) http://forums.sonyinsider.com/index.php?showtopic=25486

[stargazer_tom1]

Im tossing up whether to get one of these or a RH1. I have an nh1 and want something that sounds as good or better otherwise i will go with the rh1. Have tried numerous players like the cowon s9 and a series walkmans but cant find anything to rival the nh1. Any thoughts? RH1 or M10

[rtseung]

[sfbp]

From what I can gather the ICD SXnn0 series and the PCM-M10 seem to have been constructed to approximately the same (logical) specs. Speaking for the unit I have (ICD-SX750):

1. You can have as many folders as you like in the root subject to a global limit of 511 folders or files in the root. (FAT restriction)

2. To be played back, your ***music*** needs to be in the one of the folders under the VOICE folder which is in the root.

3. You can store files in any arrangement within reason, subject to "normal" limits on Windows path name lengths. I just tried 7 deep. No problem.

4. no playlists. But I can fiddle with the orders from the computer to my satisfaction.

All this information (or equivalent) will be in the PCM-M10 manual which you can easily find online.

Personally although I haven't got a PCM-M10, I would say the little ones are a better choice for a player for someone who likes good sound. For all the reasons I already outlined. Mainly size. Dropping the M10 is probably going to damage it seriously due to the weight/impact. Dropping the SX750 - I doubt it.

[rtseung]

thanks for the detailed reply

""2. To be played back, your ***music*** needs to be in the one of the folders under the VOICE folder which is in the root.""

so i guess no sub-folders are allowed within the Voice folder?

[sfbp]

These folders are subfolders of VOICE.

root->VOICE->folder1

folder2

folder3

You can make further nestings. But the files in them don't get played back, is all.

Remember I am only speaking of the SX750, not the PCM-M10. There are actually people here who have one and can answer you better.

[laidler]

On the brink of ordering one of these for now around 220 with free shipping, and my one real question is about playback. I'd like to assume this is gapless like the various MD and HI-MD recorders of recent years, is this the same? Also, what's the EQ like? Not trying to sound like a snob here, but I have a high quality set of Sennheiser headphones which really need a good source driving them, otherwise they're horrible. Good home HI-FI equipment rocks them out, and they sound OK with my MZ-M100, and the EQ on Foobar 2000 is great too, so I'd like to know how well one can mess with the sound on these. Thanks guys, James.

[KJ_Palmer]

Hi. The PCM-M10 doesn't have any 'proper' EQ controls, apart from 2 bass boost settings. Unlike MD recorders, this new breed of flash-based digital recorder (from Sony and other makes) aren't really designed for use as players too, which I think is a big shame. No EQ, no random playback, limited browsing etc. The PCM-M10 sounds great through my Sennheisers and Grados, and via line out to my stereo, but I'd never use it as a general player.

As for gapless playback, I'd assume Wav woud play back gaplessly as it should do by default, but MP3 would be gappy as it is on all Sony devices. It can apparently play back AAC-LC format and WMA files, not sure if these are gappy though.

[sfbp]

Both the M10 and the SXnn0 line have Bass enhancement. I certainly find with the latter (I don't have the M10) Off, Bass1 and Bass2 are easily sufficient.

But at least in the SX750, the MP3 playback doesn't sound as good as the same thing on MD or converted to LPEC/STHQ (the best compressed format on these). This is an unscientific sample, but many people have observed this reasonably generally about MP3. Unfortunately the M10 doesn't have LPEC.

The biggest reason not to use the M10 as a simple player is its bigger weight (almost 1 pound). Drop it, and I feel sure there is more likelihood of damage.

[laidler]

Well, the capacity of HI-MD turned out not to be as good as I'd hoped, plus they're damned expensive, plus all the regular players out there with an SD or Micro-SD card are strictly mp3 only, I'm kinda outta options for a portable player which can handle .wav files, and dash it all, I want full uncompressed CD quality with me. I have a few mp3s, a lot of them do sound nice, but I can still hear the difference. So unless Sony decides to pull their heads out of their asses and make their fancy mp3 Walkman handle uncompressed .wav too, I figure my best bet is the M10. I also like removable media, call me an old school idiot if you like, but I don't like being stuck with what's in the damn thing and not be near a PC to load and reload stuff, I'd prefer a little chip to just plug in. Anyway, pardon the rant. But seriously guys, if you have a better idea, I'm all ears. Thanks for the comments, James.

[laidler]

Haha, looks awesome mate, but it's Japanese only, even the manual, and also, I am taking a journalism class, so I might need the recording capabilities of the Sony after all. I don't even know if that Kenwood would even have menus in English. Though the 5 band EQ does sound interesting. Shipping's damned expensive too. Wish those Japanese would stop being stingy and share their better gadgets here. Europe and The UK gets cool stuff too, so what the crap? Guess they hate America, haha. Anyway, I'll have a look around. I know Transcend has some interesting devices, but the user reviews for them are horrendous.

Update, I found this from Creative. They're a decent company, not the greatest, but comfortable middle of the road with most of their stuff. But I don't know, I might be better off with the utilitarian, tank like PCM-M10 just for durability. Anyone had experience with this thing? Thanks for the input guys, James. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16855102067

[sfbp]

You cannot put the M10 in your shirt pocket, Oz.

[ozpeter]

I'm sure there are other options - http://www.iriver.com.au/iriver/index.cfm?pageID=2&sID=32&prodID=31 for instance has Flac and Ape support (lossless playback but less storage required) and takes card memory.

[Transistor]

I love my PCM-M10, and I am pleased with the playback sound quality.

But I would NOT get it for primary use as a music player. It would just end up annoying you. It's the size of a fatter iPhone (or a point-and-shoot camera), it's heavy by comparison to mp3 players and it's just not optimized for use as an mp3 player. It's a serious recorder, not a portable music player. .

I have a Sansa Fuze as a portable player (not the Fuze +, a whole different gadget). It plays back .wav (and .mp3, .wma, .flac and .ogg) with good sound quality, it takes microSD (I've got 16GB in there now) and has internal memory as well (4GB or 8GB). Playlists, shuffle (not great but there), etc. It has FM radio (never tried it) and a dinky voice recorder. Under $100 for 8GB internal (plus microSD slot).

Of course you have to throw out the stock earbuds, and its big quirk--we minidisc folks know about quirks, right?--is that it's picky about the kind of tags it likes on mp3s (ID3v2.3 ISO-88590-1, thank you). But for something to throw in a pocket and listen to while in motion, it's excellent.

I hear Sony makes portable music players too, come to think of it.

[laidler]

I'm looking for one which can handle uncompressed .WAV files, and this kid used to carry around cassette Walkmans, I can handle a fat iPhone. Anyway, mp3s are cute and all, but I am a CD quality uncompressed .wav guy all the way. No FLAC, no ACC, no WMV, just .WAV. So other than that Kenwood, what out there handles uncompressed .wav, and does anyone know much about that Creative player I put a link up of? I'm still leaning towards the M10 sicne it has the ruggedness thing going and as long as the bass boost sounds good I'll be happy. Plus I've started doing journalism stuff at school, so this thing would be more convenient than my small but bulky tabletop cassette recorder and more versatile too. Anyway thanks for the input guys, James.

[KJ_Palmer]

Update, I found this from Creative. They're a decent company, not the greatest, but comfortable middle of the road with most of their stuff. But I don't know, I might be better off with the utilitarian, tank like PCM-M10 just for durability. Anyone had experience with this thing? Thanks for the input guys, James. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16855102067

I've got the Creative Zen X-Fi2. Great player, lousy recorder. Seems you can't have both these days.

Having said that the Edirol R-09HR comes close (for me) as a player/recorder. As least it has shuffle. Similar in size/weight to the M10 though...

[laidler]

Sounds cool, and Wizard, I use SonicStage to rip my CDs to .WAV and I'm happy with it, so I'm not so keen on getting other software to rip in other formats etc, blah blah blah. Anyway, the Edriol looks great, but holy Hell in a hand basket is it expensive. Sure not a HUGE bit more than the Sony, but that's money I c ould put towards SD cards and CDs etc. Know what I mean? I don't know, I'll do more reading and see what I can glean from everything. It's way cool looking though, cooler than the Sony. Thanks guys, keep the suggestions coming. Love learning more about different things and how well they work and what for. Peace guys, James.

Uh-oh, looks like that Edriol from Roland has problems, and customer support like Sony is crap. And it's Chinese? Is the M10 actually made in Japan or is that made elsewhere? If that Edriol is Chinese made I'm not too sure I wanna risk it guys.

[sfbp]

I sent you a PM

[laidler]

Been reading up on the recent series of digital Walkmans. Holy Hell the problems are rife. I've never seen so many negative reviews for a product. Oh well, if it didn't have the problems it did and removable flash memory I'd be over the moon for it. Cest la vie. Think I might go with the M10 after all.

[Christopher]

Can you share some of the problems you found? I would be interested in reading up on that.

[laidler]

Can you share some of the problems you found? I would be interested in reading up on that.

Sure. It keeps freezing up apparently, losing files, ceasing all function, etc. Not to mention lousy customer support. Also it doesn't seem to be as video friendly as the box claims. Seems the supported formats are few, as well as resolutions. Look them up on Amazon and hold on tight for all the really bad negatives.

[Transistor]

Really, there is a serious divide nowadays between players and recorders. You can get a player that lets you easily navigate through your music, or you can get a high-quality recorder.

The PCM-M10 is a recorder, period. There's no scroll wheel. You will be pushing the >> button a zillion times to get from file to file. You won't be able to navigate by artist name, song title, album title, etc.

I haven't used the PCM-M10 as a player, but its firmware puts 10 folders on the internal memory and 10 on an external memory card. There's a limit, which may be 100 filenames, per folder. This is no way to have a music library.

So please, don't get it to use as a player. There are players that take .wav and .flac, and have voice mics. Get one of those.

[StevenQBosell]

As an owner of multiple MD and Hi-MD recorders, is it safe to assume the UI is similar to that of the MD sysytem?I'm really thinking of getting one off Amazon for $200, plus shipping, to compliment my existing Hi-MD system

[KJ_Palmer]

If anything, it's much easier to use than the average MD/Hi-MD portable. Lots of dedicated buttons, including a huge rec level knob, a large 7 line backlit display so you won't be squinting all the time to see what's going on. It's not so menu-driven as MD either - whilst there's a lot of 'advanced' features accesible via the menu, they're not so hidden as in the MD units under inscrutible sub-menus and modes. Once you're set up you may not even need to delve into the menus too much. I just normally upload recordings to the computer and do any necessary editing there.

Excellent recorder. Only thing it lags behind MD is in playback capabilities, just normal playmode and a bass 'enhancer'.

[StevenQBosell]

If anything, it's much easier to use than the average MD/Hi-MD portable. Lots of dedicated buttons, including a huge rec level knob, a large 7 line backlit display so you won't be squinting all the time to see what's going on. It's not so menu-driven as MD either - whilst there's a lot of 'advanced' features accesible via the menu, they're not so hidden as in the MD units under inscrutible sub-menus and modes. Once you're set up you may not even need to delve into the menus too much. I just normally upload recordings to the computer and do any necessary editing there.

Excellent recorder. Only thing it lags behind MD is in playback capabilities, just normal playmode and a bass 'enhancer'.

I was already 90% there, and you sealed the last 10. I don't even use my hi-md as a player, strictly recorder... This thing is sounding perfect for my needs,,,

It will be a gift to myself - one question, it DOES NOT HAVE AN OPTICAL IN PORT, line regular analog line in, am I correct?

[KJ_Palmer]

Ah, I forgot about that - no, it doesn't have an optical in, only line in (and mic in of course). Another way in which MD is ahead. I think only the older (and larger) flash recorders (PCM-D50) did. Once or twice recently I've had to go back to my RH1 to get a purely digital recording and upload that. Still, doesn't really detract from the M10's otherwise impeccable credentials..

[StevenQBosell]

^^^ Thanks for the heads up, it now makes it impossible to give up my MD :-)

Walmart online has it for $229 w/ free shipping through Dec. 20 in the USA... very tempting

[sfbp]

I am still in love with my ICD-SX750 (2 ounces + 2 AAA). With flash memory card prices going through the roof for some reason, I am not sure the 13+ ounce weight of the PCM-M10 competes. And the mikes on the Sx750 are as good or better than those on the PCM-M10 (if I read ozpeter's review correctly - maybe he would wish to add a comment or 3 on that score).