Direct (ATRAC) data copy from MD to PC

[viridens]

Which software will allow me to record ATRAC data from MD directly to a PC via an optical link?

I would like to archive my MD collection to hard disc. I have recently bought a generic USB sound card with a SPDIF input (only £10) and sucessfully linked this to the optical output from my trusty Sony MDS-JE530.

My current audio software will allow me to import MD tracks to the PC through this optical link as WAV or MP3 files, but I wish to avoid this unnecessary re-coding with consequent loss of quality & added artifacts.

I would like to have the option to save the original ATRAC data for each track to disc, to be played on the PC using the ATRAC codec which works fine with the online ATRAC demo tracks I have tested.

Maybe SonicStage is what I need, but years ago I vowed never to use the security-obsessed horror again....

P.S. All MDs are standard ATRAC3, there are no LP or other types. These MDs are a mixed bunch of old music, radio shows & live recordings, so there should be no protection issues. I don't mind having to save track by track manually in real time.

Sorry if this topic has been covered elsewhere on the site - I have searched and had a look through, but I have not read every page.

Thanks!

[sfbp]

1. Atrac3 IS MDLP, sorry, there's a terminology mistake in your assumptions.

2. You can't. At least not at present. Maybe with the #linux-minidisc software; currently it is known how to do it, but (I think) there is no means of playback of 292K (MDSP) on PC (possibly ffmpeg will work). In addition that new software still requires the MZ-RH1 (see below).

3. If you buy an RH1/M200 and use SS to upload your SP tracks, you will/can get a WAV file, and this is the closest to what you want.

4. IF you buy a second hand unit that works with PC Link (PCLK to the initiated), provided that second hand unit has optical out, you can use MCrew to help you a bit. I am not clear since I still don't have a system with MCrew on it, working.

OK?

Welcome to the forums.

[viridens]

1. Atrac3 IS MDLP, sorry, there's a terminology mistake in your assumptions.

2. You can't. At least not at present. Maybe with the #linux-minidisc software; currently it is known how to do it, but (I think) there is no means of playback of 292K (MDSP) on PC (possibly ffmpeg will work). In addition that new software still requires the MZ-RH1 (see below).

3. If you buy an RH1/M200 and use SS to upload your SP tracks, you will/can get a WAV file, and this is the closest to what you want.

4. IF you buy a second hand unit that works with PC Link (PCLK to the initiated), provided that second hand unit has optical out, you can use MCrew to help you a bit. I am not clear since I still don't have a system with MCrew on it, working.

OK?

Welcome to the forums.

Thanks for the reply & the corrections. My recordings are standard ATRAC, not ATRAC3. -I added the '3' in the last paragraph accidentally.

Please note that the PC optical input is working fine, and I can already upload tracks as WAV files, but even that involves a decoding/recoding process which I am trying to avoid. What I want is a bit-for-bit copy that I can play on a PC using the ATRAC codec.

Logically, just copying the data across to the PC should be a more simple process than decoding & encoding again. What I need is suitable data copy software. I saw what looks like an expensive solution HERE which has many features I don't need but still only gives WAV files, and I'm not even sure it is still supported (SCSI interface?)...

[sfbp]

Please re-read my reply.

Even if you can do it, you cannot play the result on a PC. Maybe someone can, but you probably can not.

[viridens]

Please re-read my reply.

Even if you can do it, you cannot play the result on a PC. Maybe someone can, but you probably can not.

But I am able to play files like the attached ATRAC3 (at 132K) sample file using windows media player. I am using an ATRAC3 codec.

NOTE I have changed the file extension from .oma to .txt to get around site attachment upload restrictions.

mc_sich_at3_132.txt

[sfbp]

Exactly right.

Atrac3 (MDLP) is supported openly on the PC, provided you can get it decrypted after SonicStage upload. RealNetworks (them that got sued recently over something similar) actually used the ATRAC codecs for a while.

Sony provide a tool for that decryption nowadays, for free. Fail to decrypt it and the music won't play on another PC.

But they never gave us SP on the PC. Quite deliberately.

[sfbp]

The original 292kbps audio data will be there, just in a 1411kbps .wav file

Sorry no, that is misleading. You do NOT get 292kbps in a WAV container (which is all that WAV is). You get 292 expanded up to 1411 khz using ATRAC decoding.

[viridens]

Thanks for the replies, but we seem to be putting the cart before the horse.

I am looking for a way to import raw track data from MD to PC via an optical link. This is step one. I want to see exactly what is there. If there are decoding problems or whatever beyond this I will worry about that AFTER I have captured some data to work with.

Has anyone any practical experience of doing this, &/or can anyone suggest suitable capture software? (My original question).

[sfbp]

huh? (optical signal coming from the 530 is already 44.1kHz sample rate 1411kbps)

[netmduser]

As others have posted you need an RH1 to do this (you are not getting a playable wav file correct?)

ATRAC decoder is practically only available in a hardware chip (what is in every md player). There currently isn't a software decoder available for ATRAC for the consumer, unless someone writes some code for it. Does anyone know if there would also be an encryption issue?

ATRAC3 is available though.

The best feature of ATRAC is also its limitation.

(2nd best option is to record analog line out / in this will give good results)

[sfbp]

(you are not getting a playable wav file correct?)

One gets a normal playable CD-quality wav file by recording the optical output. And I am sure OP does.

I don't see what we are arguing about. There's no such thing as compressed optical output.

[netmduser]

Okay I guess OP is trying to avoid the D/A conversion process from the deck. The RH1 may not be a solution either then.

Maybe the OP is a software developer working on an ATRAC software decoder?

[sfbp]

Okay I guess OP is trying to avoid the D/A conversion process from the deck. The RH1 may not be a solution either then.

Right. He says he wants optical out. That's simply not on the menu. For USB, it's already done with the RH1, of course.

[viridens]

Many thanks for the advice. I am keen to consider all possibilities before starting the transfer marathon.

I like new toys, & I would love to own a RH1/M200, but I simply can't afford one. (None on eBay at the moment!) -Any chance of a loan anyone?

I am still keen to capture the raw ATRAC data stream. I calculate that at the bitrate of 300Kbit/s would give a file size of only 2.2Mbyte per minute, which was the advantage of ATRAC in the first place!

I calculate that capturing the raw data stream from the spdif line (about 3Mbit/s) would give me file sizes of 21Mbyte per minute & no real advantage, so I have ruled that out. I note the factor of 10 'data inflation' of the SPDIF stream compared to ATRAC, so 10 times more hard disc space required for archiving.

I now realise that ATRAC3 codec is NOT backwards compatible, but I am still confused by the statement that there is no software decoder for standard ATRAC on a PC. Surely SonicStage has one, & I seem to remember ffmpeg would also do this?

Without a RH1, I will have to go for a quick-n-dirty approach. I have identified a suitable ATRAC data stream tap-off point on my Sony cct board. I plan to add a TTL buffer, & to dig out an old laptop with a serial I/O port to input this data stream, then worry about software decoding of the captured file. If (when) I reach a dead end & find I have wasted my time, I can always fall back to the SPDIF sound card method.

Please correct me if I have got something else wrong.

[sfbp]

A quick calculation shows that capturing the raw data stream from the spdif line (about 3Mbit/s) would give me file sizes of 21Mbyte per minute & no real advantage, so I have ruled that out.

Close. A CD has (roughly) 750MB data for 80 minutes of music. So that's about 60 seconds for 10 MB (10240kB) or about 170 kB/sec. A bit more for the (serial) overhead. Try it.

I like new toys, & I would love to own a RH1/M200, but I simply can't afford one. (None on eBay at the moment!)

Where do you live? There are literally dozens. Lowest price I saw currently in UK at under $300 if the guy still has them, here

I now realise that ATRAC3 codec is NOT backwards compatible, but I am confused by the statement that there is no software decoder for standard ATRAC on a PC.

Yes, you are confused.

Surely SonicStage has one, & I seem to remember ffmpeg would also do this?

The only software decoder from Sony is hidden deep inside SonicStage versions designed for the RH1. It requires the unit firmware to output MD data direct onto USB, which (we think but are not 100% sure) none of the other units is capable of doing. There exists an open source project that can do this, but ONLY with the RH1 as starting point to generate the data streams. Right now, almost no one has generated and stored any files in this format, which is not of itself a barrier.

I am still keen to capture the raw ATRAC data stream which at about 300Kbit/s would give a file size of only 2.2 Mbyte per minute, which was the advantage of ATRAC in the first place!

And which Sony has used first hardware, and later major encryption, to prevent.

I have identified a suitable ATRAC data stream tap-off point on my Sony cct board.

What's that?

I plan to add a TTL buffer, & to dig out an old laptop with a serial I/O port to input this data stream, then worry about software decoding of the captured file.

You will, I think, find that that is not possible. The only digital OUTput comes straight from the master chip (after decoding from ATRAC to normal S/PDIF. There's an ATRAC ENcoder that is separate in a number of units (not the most recent portables, IIRC), but the decoder is built into the ATRAC chips. You can take a look at any of the schematics. Even the MDS-W1 uses the same chips. The only difference there (and on the combo CD-MD decks) is that the hardware decodes and encodes in real time, so the transfer is "effectively" digital. In reality it's not. Show me where the digital signal is available, and I will believe.

If (when) I reach a dead end & find I have wasted my time, I can always fall back to the SPDIF sound card method.

That's the method I have used for almost 10 years, and it works. Go ahead and waste your time.

In terms of marathons, you might be able to coerce two of the "pro" units into relay-playback so you could automate things a bit. But for that money you can afford an RH1.

[netmduser]

I may be wrong someone please chime in but there is not an ATRAC decoder embedded deep in SS. What is happening is the ATRAC chip inside the RH1 is being used to do the conversion > 1x and the resultant wav file is being transferred on the usb wire to the PC. If it was in SS then we should be able to easily find it.

How will you handle encryption with the ATRAC data?

With the ATRAC data you will still need to decode to wav, might as well let the hardware do it for you, the SPDIF sound card method does this for you? (I personally would just do the analog route for recording but my needs are different).

If you are a developer/hacker I can understand why.

[sfbp]

I may be wrong someone please chime in but there is not an ATRAC decoder embedded deep in SS. What is happening is the ATRAC chip inside the RH1 is being used to do the conversion > 1x and the resultant wav file is being transferred on the usb wire to the PC.

WRONG. This was the myth until quite recently (for sure, I repeated it) when the group in Germany exploded it.

If it was in SS then we should be able to easily find it.

AGAIN WRONG (sorry for shouting), the handlers are buried so deep that it is quite impossible to decode that software. Instead they looked at the data. Try to figure out how much data there would be if it was 1411kbps, and you'll realise it simply couldn't transfer in the time available.

Stephen

[netmduser]

Is there a link? What assumptions did they make because you can run any DSP like the ATRAC greater than 1x so it is possible to transfer > 1x hence timing would be << realtime.

If it is in SS then it should be easy to call it from PC wouldn't it? SS is win api based what mechanism did the use to 'bury it deep'?

[sfbp]

Sorry, you're not (quite) making sense. SP transfers at about x10, and there is NO WAY that the link would support 15 mbps.

Stephen

[NickyJay]

What I want is a bit-for-bit copy that I can play on a PC using the ATRAC codec.

Logically, just copying the data across to the PC should be a more simple process than decoding & encoding again. What I need is suitable data copy software.

I myself do not care much for playback of the raw Atrac 292kps file on the PC. What I would love to have though is a simple 'back ard forward' i.e. two-way transfer between the minidisc and the PC. I only plan to listen to my MDs on MDs, and only use the PC's hard disc for archiving purposes.

Surely then, if the SP file that is on the minidisc can be recognized and played by Sonicstage, there must be a way to upload and download the raw SP audio data using the computer?

[KJ_Palmer]

The problem, as mentioned, is that Sonicstage can't/won't play SP. The best it can do, and only with the RH1/M200 is to use the the recorder's on board decoder to convert it to a format that it will recognise (MDLP/Hi-MD/Wav formats). So you can't archive raw SP at all, apart from on Minidiscs.

[NickyJay]

I understand, but the fact that Sonicstage refuses to do anything with the SP file on the MD suggests that it understands the underlying SP information. Together with the hardware capabilities of the RH1 the software must be allowing the decoding process to continue and to upload the converted WAV file. My thinking is that there must be a way to interrupt the command sequence using some fancy Python script so that the raw SP data is uploaded directly....

[sfbp]

Trust me, the raw SP data IS uploaded.