newbie question on MD->PC transfer

[wildgoose]

Hello,

I have some old, but important voice recordings that I would like to transfer from MD to my PC, so I can archive it and burn it to a CD and give it to friends/families as needed. These are standard MD disc from 10+ years ago.

I just purchased a MZ-M200, arriving in a few days, which have a USB connection, and my understanding is I can use it to do the task.

Reading wikipedia on sonicstage, there seems to be a lot of DRM build into SonicStage. I would like to know what I am dealing with so as to not make a irreversible mistake.

1) Does the upload work if I put the disk in write protected mode? (ie, if something goes wrong, the disk is still good..)

2) Does the upload generate an .atrac file, or can it only upload to a wave file? or even worst, some DRM wrapped file? Ideally I'd like to archive it as an .atrac file, but if that's not possible, a wav file would do fine.

3) If I can generate an .atrac file, are there software besides sonicstage can play it back?

3) I vaguely recall from researching this a few years ago that the upload will erase the copy on the disc (so it's really a move, not a upload/copy). Is this still true? If the upload target is a DRM protected file, that'll be even worst. (If this is true, are there any other options for me to get a lossless copy from my disc to the PC without messing up the disc)?

Thanks in advance!

[NickyJay]

If you upload the SP files to the PC then make sure you choose Linear PCM as I think the default setting in Sonicstage is 256kps Atrac3plus. You don't want to be transcoding twice if you can avoid it.

More generally, I seriously doubt you want to go down the Atrac route especially now that Sony have abandoned developing it further (in the west at least). There are so many headaches with it that even the computer experts on this forum deem it to be a miracle when they can get Sonicstage to work on a Windows 7 machine.

Edit - you should ask the ones who use the SP uploading feature for specifics, but I'm pretty sure there are no restrictions on the file when it is uploaded, as there is no atrac sp codec - it's only existing in the hardware itself so no chance of a reverse transfer. With Atrac3plus transfers you have all that ticking boxes nonsense. If you do go down that route (and Atrac3plus is a damn fine codec, sound wise at least) make sure you untick the boxes that say 'Add copy protection' and other stuff like that. I've never bothered with it since I digitally copy directly from my MD deck to a CD recorder when I need to transfer things to CD.

[sfbp]

1) Does the upload work if I put the disk in write protected mode? (ie, if something goes wrong, the disk is still good..)

Absolutely not, at least for HiMD disks. I am not sure, for legacy (SP, LP2, LP4) disks, you might try it....

2) Does the upload generate an .atrac file, or can it only upload to a wave file?

You can upload to PCM or 256K (HiSP). As NickyJay says, the latter is silly because you get transcoding. The former is useless because nothing understands it, and the file is encrypted (which can and shoud be got around). What you want to do is to export that PCM file to WAV (rightclick in SonicStage, or alternatively set up that every import makes a WAV file... problem there is that the specified directory fills up quickly with very large files. When you have got all the stuff you care about safely to WAV, DELETE EVERYTHING YOU JUST UPLOADED FROM SONICSTAGE, including "Delete this music from the computer". Now you can re-import it to SS. Usually what I do is to burn a CD immediately with the WAV files using Nero (I don't trust the SS CD burner unless I have to, and the dialog box with the CD-Text volume information is very hard to find, whereas in Nero it's obvious), and then do Sony's own lossless compression to AAL (make sure the destination is 256K). This AAL format can be played from SonicStage (or Windows media or VLC) as well as being able to regenerate WAV pretty much flawlessly, and also to down-code to LP2 if you need it.

All of the above applies to SP recordings.

For LP2 and LP4 recordings, they are automatically uploaded "as is". They can be exported to WAV but there's no particular need. They can be converted to MP3, with Sony's own MP3 converter (you will have to play with it to figure out how it arranges the files since it's apparently set up to transform ALL your files at once, a nice feature I suppose). Just make sure you don't try to convert LP recordings when sending back to MD, this is when the transcoding goes wrong and earns MDLP a bad name. The upload is a bit perfect copy, unlike SP mode, however.

3) If I can generate an .atrac file, are there software besides sonicstage can play it back?

Yes, anything on that computer that plays media files. It needs a bit of tweaking in the registry, but I can help with that, either by providing explicit instructions, or by referring you to posts (not) long dead. Start off by double-clicking an OMA file with Windows Media Player, just to convince yourself. As I say a bit of tweaking to make it 100% integrated, but relatively easily done.

3) I vaguely recall from researching this a few years ago that the upload will erase the copy on the disc (so it's really a move, not a upload/copy). Is this still true?

No, not at all.

If the upload target is a DRM protected file, that'll be even worst. (If this is true, are there any other options for me to get a lossless copy from my disc to the PC without messing up the disc)?

You need to run Sony's File Conversion Tool (from the main menu of SS) on a regular basis to remove the file protection from uploaded files. Pain, but there it is. When and if the Linux Minidisc project gets it so you can upload files from SP disks integrated with the rest of the project, that problem won't exist any more. Currently it's a separate program to do that task.

[wildgoose]

Thanks for the replies!

The disc that I wanted to upload is recorded on an MZ-R50 that I purchased back in 1998. I also have some recordings from an MDS-JB920 I picked up on craigslist, along with about 50+ SP discs. The MDS-JB920 recordings are less critical and I won't lose any sleep if they are lost. But the MZ-R50 recordings are more important.

Sounds like by default the recording will be ATRAC3+ and that will involve a transcoding? What format does the MZ-R50 records in? And the JB920? Based on what I am hearing, I will save it to WAV, and convert it to FLAC afterwards. I have a Logitech Squeezebox setup and all my CDs are ripped to FLAC. So Wav->FLAC is probably the best archival format for me.

I was thinking about .atrac initially for nostalgic reasons. Perhaps also to save a bit of disk space, but we'll see how well FLAC can compress those voice recordings... Is there an option to save the recordings from the MZ-R50 as is? (would it be atrac3 or 4?)

The copying protection and how I can turn it off sounds a bit confusing. I am sure it'll make more sense once I receive the unit from Sony and start playing with the software... (fingers crossed...

[wildgoose]

One other question.

The MZ-R50 will timestamp the recording. Is there a way for me to preserve the timestamp somehow so that I end up having a file such as

001_YYYYMMDD_HHMMSS.wav

002_......

Etc?

That would be nice for archival purpose.. My PCM-M10 actually records files using a timestamp, so something like that would be ideal...

[NickyJay]

Sounds like by default the recording will be ATRAC3+ and that will involve a transcoding? What format does the MZ-R50 records in? And the JB920?

Both those units record in Atrac 1 SP 292kps. This is an entirely different format to the one you are thinking about (Atrac3+), it exists only in the hardware as I mentioned in my previous post. That is why we are warning you to be careful when you upload. If it is too difficult to understand please find someone who knows the process to show you, because you don't want to lose quality when you do the transfer.

From memory I don't think the RH1 saves the timestamp details when it uploads, just the titles are carried over. If your recordings are that precious though then I am sure you won't mind copying over the titles and timestamps manually?

[sfbp]

If you're going to FLAC (I have no reason to because Atrac Advanced Lossless has all the right characteristics for me, including being able to recreate WAV) then you need to upload from RH1 with the transfer destination (it's under the "Advanced" button in the Import Settings tab) set to "PCM" meaning 1411 kbps, the default being 256kbps A3+ as described by NickyJay. As I mentioned you will simply throw this A3+ file away once you have got your WAV files, it is useless effectively.

As to the timestamp metadata, I think it gets lost (and for blank titles replaced by upload time, which is not very useful in your circumstance). Better to title them all BEFORE upload - this is very easy from SonicStage (way better than the IR remote method) and about as easy as a keyboard, although I think your 920 deck does not accept a keyboard, sadly.

There's a whole myth/method-ology about fast uploads. If you have used ANY other HiMD or NetMD recorder in NetMD mode on the same PC, then the RH1 gets messed up unless you do some crazy stuff (which we have carefully documented). But it is worth doing because a. it will save your recorder wear b. it will be approx 10x faster.

[wildgoose]

As to the timestamp metadata, I think it gets lost (and for blank titles replaced by upload time, which is not very useful in your circumstance). Better to title them all BEFORE upload - this is very easy from SonicStage (way better than the IR remote method) and about as easy as a keyboard, although I think your 920 deck does not accept a keyboard, sadly.

You mean I can title the disc from SonicStage? That's neat, I guess I'll just title it manually to the timestamp name I want..

There's a whole myth/method-ology about fast uploads. If you have used ANY other HiMD or NetMD recorder in NetMD mode on the same PC, then the RH1 gets messed up unless you do some crazy stuff (which we have carefully documented). But it is worth doing because a. it will save your recorder wear b. it will be approx 10x faster.

Hmmmm. My PC, an newly built XP-64 bit system, have no MD connection ever. Is XP-64bit supported? Or am I better off with a 32bit XP VM? I have yet to upgrade to win7.. If it's a clean machine, I shouldn't need to do any 'crazy stuff' to save recorder wear right?

[sfbp]

There is no "supported" version of XP-64, maybe you mean Windows 7.

As long as you didn't hook anything else to it you should be good to go. Assuming you have the standard W7-64, the drivers here for the RH1 in the download section should be fine. Install them BEFORE you install SonicStage.

[Hungerdunger]

I've just tried uploading an old SP recording using my RH1. You CAN protect the disc first - it still works fine. As others have said, you have an option of saving the file in PCM or 256kbps ATRAC, and additionally you can save in WAV format. The file DOES lose the original timestamp.

Assuming you haven't already installed SonicStage, don't use the installation disc; get the "Ultimate" installation from this site. In SonicStage, click on the "briefcase" icon, then "Advanced" then "Import Settings" where you make your selections for how you want to save the files.

[sfbp]

All good advice. Thanks for trying out the write protect. Unfortunately I think the write protect is all in software, so that tab doesn't really protect anything like it does on a floppy disk.

[wildgoose]

I am running Windows XP Professional x64 Edition, Version 2003, Service Pack 2.

The ultimate version of SonicStage, it includes all the necessary drivers correct? So basically

1) Install the ultimate SonicStage

2) plug in the MZ-M200

I purchased from prooutlet.sel.sony.com yesterday. Anyone know where they ship from and how fast they ship? I am in San Jose.

Thanks!!

[sfbp]

I am running Windows XP Professional x64 Edition, Version 2003, Service Pack 2.

WOW, that's a rare animal. Sony specifically say they don't support it. Sorry.

The ultimate version of SonicStage, it includes all the necessary drivers correct?

It may well be that THIS driver runs just fine. If it does, I will edit the description to say including Windows XP-64.

Did you try installing the Sonic Stage from this forum? (also prominently featured in downloads). You might do so immediately. If not you are out of luck with W64-XP, as Sony has always claimed.

[wildgoose]

I installed SonicStage Ultimate in an VMware Workstation 32bit XP VM in my XP64bit system. The install went fine and I can fire up the app and play with its settings. Can't do much yet without the MD device. Hope it arrives soon...

[sfbp]

Sounds fine.

I would still very much like to know if the drivers here work for Windows XP64.

This may in time be quite helpful to others.

Thanks

[wildgoose]

I'll be happy to help. What's the best way to try this? Can I

1) plug in the MD-M200, when the dialog for driver pop up, browse to the driver folder and try it

2) then install SS ultimate

Would #2 override the driver I installed in #1?

Asking because my XP-64bit is not a VM, so I kind of got one shot at this. Unless of course I create a 64bit XP VM and try it there I suppose...

Thanks.

[sfbp]

Just as you describe, but without the MD plugged in, install SonicStage first. THEN insert the MD with an SP or MDLP disk in it, and navigate to that driver (NetMD760.INF) installation file. If you did it already, you may have a yellow exclamation mark and/or an "unknown" device, which you have to update... the world of USB drivers is a bit uncertain, sorry.

[THIS SUCKS]

All good advice. Thanks for trying out the write protect. Unfortunately I think the write protect is all in software, so that tab doesn't really protect anything like it does on a floppy disk.

the write protect is not in the software. it is only controlled by the slider tab exactly like a floppy disk.

[sfbp]

Are you sure? I was under the impression that in service mode the units will ignore WP. Something to try

[Hungerdunger]

Are you sure? I was under the impression that in service mode the units will ignore WP. Something to try

But whether or not that's the case, surely the important thing for the average user is that no changes can be made to the disc by SonicStage when transferring files. I don't know how you can prove this conclusively, but when I put a protected disc into my RH1, I can't make SonicStage delete tracks or format the disc.

[sfbp]

... in addition, you cannot UPload from the disk (at least HiMD)

[Hungerdunger]

Yes, you're right Stephen - I'd forgotten about that. But at least for someone who doesn't want to lose a cherished legacy recording you can definitely transfer that using a protected disc.

[wildgoose]

I finally received my MZ-M200.

I tried the Vista/Win7 64bit driver, it did not work in my Windows XP-64bit VM, unfortunately.

I was able to transfer tracks and convert to WAV in my 32bit XP VM. I was able to transfer tracks from a standard MD disc that is write protected. I compared the WAV of two separate uploads, and they were identical, which is very good. (The OMA file was deleted between uploads..)

Here are the settings I used.

FYI I was not prompted for anything during transfer. So I guess this setting is not active when transferring from MD.

This should be the setting for lossless upload from the MD to my computer right?

[Hungerdunger]

FYI I was not prompted for anything during transfer. So I guess this setting is not active when transferring from MD

That's because that section of the settings screen is for transfers TO MD, not the other way round.

[sfbp]

I tried the Vista/Win7 64bit driver, it did not work in my Windows XP-64bit VM, unfortunately.

I'm not understanding something.

This driver (NETMD760.*) is for Native Windows64. What's all this about 64-bit VM? Generally, isn't the 64 bit the native machine that 32-bit OS's may be hosted under?

(I hear those thunks marching louder and louder like something in a Monty Python song, "Thunk Thunk Thunk Thunk, Thunk Thunk Thunk Thunk.....")

Stephen

[wildgoose]

This driver (NETMD760.*) is for Native Windows64. What's all this about 64-bit VM? Generally, isn't the 64 bit the native machine that 32-bit OS's may be hosted under?

I am testing it in a 64-bit virtual machine (VMware Workstation) running Windows-XP 64bit SP2. (Same as my physical machine). The reason is I don't want it to mess up my real machine..

Physical machine: Core-i7

OS: Windows XP 64bit SP2

App: VMware Workstation

Virtual Machine: Pristine 32 and 64bit XP environment.

It did not work in the 64bit XP VM. I installed SonicStage Ultimate, there were maybe 2 errors during driver install, the install was able to finish. I can launch SonicStage. Then I plugged in the MD, and a window popped up asking me for driver. I browsed to the driver files, but Windows it says it cannot start the driver. Tried twice.

However it worked flawlessly in my 32bit XP VM. This is where I did all the screenshots and the uploading from MD->PC.

I finished transferring all the discs. 13 disc and about 8GB of wav files. Hearing the precious recording I made 13 years ago literally bought tears to my eyes. I don't know whether I should be happy, that Sony made such nice equipment 13 years ago that made these recordings possible, or sad that they *(*%$ up the format so bad...

It would've been so nice if SS can name the track using the recording timestamp rather than the current timestamp (kind of useless), oh well. I am doing that manually now. I guess there's no hope of SS being updated..

I have some tracks that were copied from Tape and are missing track marks. What do people here use to split these tracks into multiple tracks? Audacity?

[sfbp]

I see, finally. The 64-bit XP is not running on the bare metal.

In this case I have no idea if the hosted XP or VMWare has the right hooks to ensure a driver install will work.

It (Sonic Stage) works in XP32, Vista/32, Vista/64, W7/64, W7/32 and I can think of no reason why it should not work on XP/64. After all the Windows philosophy is "embrace and extende". So I don't think much actually changed in there (though I can imagine some of the tweaks to get compatibility).

[wildgoose]

I'll bring the MD to work next week and try it on one of my work machines.

It's ironic, the recordings I care about the most, my own recordings, needs no copy protection. The recordings I care about the least, digital copies of songs from CD (heck I didn't even bother to upload those..), Sony wasted countless hours trying to protect, and in the process, killed the format.

Now the question is what, do I do with my MD equipment.

[sfbp]

Sony protected the CD's because they have investment in the CD industry. Simple as that. They tried to make it possible for you to do stuff with your own recordings.

Apple did the same, for a slightly different reason. The difference was not DRM but marketing.

Would appreciate the test of NetMD760 on XP/64 if that is something you can do at work. Thanks.

[wildgoose]

I decided to just try it on my main machine at home instead of waiting til next week. Unfortunately it did not work, same as it was in the VM. I was able to find out more:

1) SonicStage Ultimate will install, but toward the end, there are 3 errors relates to driver install...

2) If MZ-M200 have regular MD formatted as Hi-SP disc, then connecting via USB will use the standard windows XP mass storage driver, and I can browse the files. Furthermore, I can upload the songs in SonicStage!

3) If MZ-M200 have a regular MD containing old MD songs, then XP will prompt me for a driver, and when I browse to the Win7 64bit driver, I get the same error as I did in the VM:

I take it case #3 works in Vista/Win7? I guess I could try my Win7 VM tomorrow..

[sfbp]

3) If MZ-M200 have a regular MD containing old MD songs, then XP will prompt me for a driver, and when I browse to the Win7 64bit driver, I get the same error as I did in the VM:

So far all expected behaviour, as the NetMD driver is not used by HiMD disks. Period.

You have to switch in the NetMD driver you downloaded from this site for the one that came with SonicStage Ultimate 4.3

The way to do this is

1. delete (uninstall) current driver, which may well be showing an exclamation point. Good to clean up any OTHER drivers that got installed for NetMD following the instructions in THIS POST

Then point the Windows hardware installer at the file NETMD760.INF which presumably is in the same directory as the other files you got from that zip file.

OR...

2. UPDATE the driver for the NetMD already showing.

Note: SonyMSUS.inf is for Memory Stick (MS) - no relevance to what you are doing methinks.

Hopefully this gets you there.

Stephen