How much better is a deck over a portable?

[damnspynovels]

I've got a JB940QS (the UK special edition, for what its worth) deck, and I've just bought a N707 portable unit. I picked this particular unit as it's a relatively late generation model, that's fully compatible with any recording i might make on my deck i.e. MDLP etc.

 

It could wind up being a lot more convenient as a recorder. I have a stack of radio recordings saved up on the Hard Drive of my tv's set top box (in the UK, where I am, the BBC broadcasts their radio across the tv airwaves too), and it would be very, very convenient to just stick an optical cable between my tv set top box and the portable and record them all onto MD (real time, of course). 

 

So i ask, how much better is recording on my jb940 over the portable? Or are the improvements in sound quality only realised in playback?

Factor in the source also, because whilst I'm not sure exactly what the quality of the radio audio coming to my tv box is, it won't be uncompressed. 



 

[freddyjollo]

for re recording BBC radio, none. But at some stage you may want to  edit the start and end bits, there the deck maybe easier. What you are contemplating doing is a joyless endless task. - I used to do that for films. In future  you might like to record in real time the  programmes as they are broadcast,  onto md. I used to do that from my dab radio and  deck using a time switch to turn the  md deck on and off.  Thats the only way  you can do it now since  radiodownloader has been nobbled by the BBC scared that it would  damage their new iplayer. If you dont know Radiodownloader it might be worth a look at as it still has some functionality.

 

http://nerdoftheherd.com/tools/radiodld/?utm_source=Radio+Downloader+0.26.2.0&utm_medium=desktop&utm_campaign=About+Dialog+Link

 

This produces mp3, if u get a netmd u can then transfer to md easy.

[sfbp]

Or are the improvements in sound quality only realised in playback?

Factor in the source also, because whilst I'm not sure exactly what the quality of the radio audio coming to my tv box is, it won't be uncompressed.

These two are essentially the same DSP chip - Type-R (bit reallocation), not Type-S (which logically followed Type-R) which was the last revision of the ATRAC hardware. So a fair question.

To give an unfair answer, you can improve the playback if and only if you got a Type-S deck or portable (all HiMD units are Type-S as well as a considerable proportion of NetMD units).

However to go back to the question posed: I would tend to use the deck for recording, unless it's super-inconvenient.

One thing to be aware of: if the TV box is (likely) outputting a 48kHz-sampled signal, the MD will have to resample it. This resampling is responsible for all sorts of weird artifacts when doing the kind of recording you describe, with sound that has been compressed. It's probably less significant for full (uncompressed) sound.

So:

1. See if you can set the output of the TVbox to 44.1kHz. If you cannot, I would hazard a guess that the deck does better resampling than the portable.

2. Consider doing an ANALOGUE recording. Despite all you have read and thought, in this situation you may be better getting the one system to play back "the way it knows how". You'll find out quickly if this improves your results.

3. If you want to get fancy, see about a resampling device that will suck the optical signal and upsample to 176 or 192 kHz and then dither it down to 44.1kHz. Generally this should produce a better result. The Behringer Ultramatch Pro is a standalone example of this technology, though many (up-market) computer sound cards probably have the same capability (unlikely the one IN the machine, you would have to buy an add-on card costing 100 pounds or more).

Hope this helps.

[damnspynovels]

Thanks for the answers.

 

i imagine yes, the tv box is putting out 48khz, but it's in a different room to my deck so is really inconvenient to move. I wonder if analogue would be the way to go, in which case i guess the question still stands - editing aside (and i find it a pain to edit on my deck as it is), would there be any difference in recording analogue via either device, considering they're using the same dsp chip? 

[sfbp]

Definitely you don't want a loooong analogue cable. Losses and hum/noise. Gold connectors help.

The recording circuits in the deck have all sorts of circuitry applied to the signal before it ever hits the main DSP chip, which are not used in portables. Much more stable power supplies too.

[damnspynovels]

Yeah i hear ya. I guess I'm now just asking opinions as to whether, considering the source (relatively compressed), there's any real world shortcomings in using a portable to record via analogue signal from my tv? 

[sfbp]

Well... the one disadvantage of recording analogue signals in highly compressed form (LP2 or LP4) is that you may waste a lot of bits recording white noise or hum. That's why optical is better on an "originally" optical signal. Also the filters on deck may help.

[freddyjollo]

You dont say what you want to  record - speech or music?

 

BBC radio  is not very high bit rate. The best is I think 190kbs typicaly 128 or less? I think  radio on Freeview a bit higher. Either way the encoding standard is archaic I believe.  I wouldnt even think of doing it analogue unless you have to - just use an optical connection. I have never heard any issues arising from sampling rate differences, but then I have only been  recording spoken word shows from what is now called Radio 4 extra - I have most of the comedies and many of the dramas on md, I think about 50 GB

[damnspynovels]

You dont say what you want to  record - speech or music?

 

BBC radio  is not very high bit rate. The best is I think 190kbs typicaly 128 or less? I think  radio on Freeview a bit higher. Either way the encoding standard is archaic I believe.  I wouldnt even think of doing it analogue unless you have to - just use an optical connection. I have never heard any issues arising from sampling rate differences, but then I have only been  recording spoken word shows from what is now called Radio 4 extra - I have most of the comedies and many of the dramas on md, I think about 50 GB

 

Oh ok there's a programme on 6music (so digital only) in the middle of the night each night that rebroadcasts band's concerts and radio sessions. The kind of things I would've put on tapes when I was younger. 9 times out of 10 i delete the show from my tv box but every once in a while there's a gem on there.

So I think really I'm fussing about nothing. The quality is so average to begin with I don't suppose it's going to make much difference? 

 

The ideal scenario I guess would be to find a DAB with digital out that might be 44.1khz (but I don't know if such a thing exists), and time record it to my deck. I don't own a DAB radio myself. But the convenience of letting my tv box record everything itself, with full text descriptions that tells me whether I need to bother with it or not (as i said, 9/10 episodes get deleted) is too much to ignore.

 

Incidentally, on another note, whilst the jog dial on my deck is slightly iffy in that it skips increments when I turn it, regardless I find editing on the deck almost impossible. I'm coming at this as someone who only had portables in the 90s, and used the track mark button to splice and dice tracks with ease. That seems like such a chore on my deck. I don't think I've ever fully figured it out. 

[freddyjollo]

If u want best quality then stick to the freeview box as they do use a higher  bit rate on some channels. this has been a bone of contention with those who have DAB tuners - some thing to do with lack of space  in the radio spectrum ( some even are mono on DAB but stereo on Freeview ) dont know if true of the  channel u use. I dont record much from radio any more  but  when there is a good programme I will use my MS Media centre  as I have added a tv tuner card to my pc - that does much the same as a freeview box. I then use optical out to  minidisc.  Most of my recordings in the old days were using a DAB tuner and  a timer for my deck - really messy if  u want to record more than one programme!

 

re editng on a deck, if u add a key board  u can use that to do editing I believe.

[slugbahr]

+1 to adding a keyboard.

[damnspynovels]

That's settled then. I've ordered an optical cable that's long enough to go from my tv box to my minidisc deck. 

 

So using a ps/2 keyboard - is that dead easy? like i said the jog dial knob on my deck is temperamental in that it might go backwards when i'm turning it clockwise, or it might jump more than one increment etc. Is there any documentation online as to what the key layout would be? 

[kieronkirk]

http://www.minidisc.org/manuals/sony/sony_mdsjb940_manual.pdf

 

Kieron

[freddyjollo]

here is a image of the keyboard  shortcuts to control sony 940 mini disc

 

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7021/6788074131_d3be122213_z.jpg

 

save it and  view  bigger.

 

The problem maybe getting a ps2 keyboard - though maybe a usb one will come with an adapter

[sfbp]

the jog dial knob on my deck is temperamental in that it might go backwards when i'm turning it clockwise, or it might jump more than one increment etc.

This should be fixable easily. We need to get some input from Jim Hoggarth but I would guess that taking the knob off and spraying some contact cleaner would work wonders. The problem is to make sure that CC doesn't end up anywhere else permanently, with the resulting smell.

I'm guessing the proper way to do this is to disassemble the SW board from the 940 and work on it away from the deck, to avoid contamination. That, or replace it (page 61 of the service manual).

[damnspynovels]

This should be fixable easily. We need to get some input from Jim Hoggarth but I would guess that taking the knob off and spraying some contact cleaner would work wonders. The problem is to make sure that CC doesn't end up anywhere else permanently, with the resulting smell. I'm guessing the proper way to do this is to disassemble the "key" board from the 940 and work on it away from the deck, to avoid contamination.

 

I was going to ask what contact cleaner is - you obviously don't mean compressed air? 

Also - I assume you mean removing the faceplate and working from the inside, rather than just pulling the knob off the front? 

 

But at the same time, and I haven't looked at the keyboard shortcuts yet (tho thanks for posting), but will a PS/2 keyboard give me all the functionality I need  - therefore making the jog dial sort of redundant for editing purposes?

 

I can't remember if i said, but i'm coming at this after using old portables in the 90s - tho stopped in about 2002. I never had a deck, so am inexperienced with the advance editing capabilities of decks. I was a master at making the track mark button work for me though. 

[sfbp]

U replied too quick - my first reponse got edited after a couple of minutes. Contact cleaner is some weird mixture of solvents.

[damnspynovels]

U replied too quick - my first reponse got edited after a couple of minutes. Contact cleaner is some weird mixture of solvents.

 

yeah no problem - i figured out what it was. i also watched a video of some guy cleaning volume pots on an amp and figure it's much the same process. i'll see how limited i am (if at all) with using a keyboard and then go from there - thanks!

[sfbp]

You've been unlucky - touchwood I've never had a problem with the jog knob on DECKS (portables is another matter entirely and may be harder to fix). I'd recommend fixing it anyway, just on general principles (you can see the ebay listing "OK except for AMS/Jog dial jumps" already).

[damnspynovels]

You've been unlucky - touchwood I've never had a problem with the jog knob on DECKS (portables is another matter entirely and may be harder to fix). I'd recommend fixing it anyway, just on general principles (you can see the ebay listing "OK except for AMS/Jog dial jumps" already).

 

Not quite sure I understand but ok I think you're implying I might be frustrated to the point that I'd sell it? 

[freddyjollo]

yes  the keyboard  shortcups  emulate the AMS knob that sticks  in your case. Have a look asap

[damnspynovels]

yes  the keyboard  shortcups  emulate the AMS knob that sticks  in your case. Have a look asap

 

Great - i'll just get a keyboard then. I'll tackle the jog dial cleaning another time. 

[sfbp]

Not quite sure I understand but ok I think you're implying I might be frustrated to the point that I'd sell it?

as long as the fault is localised you should be ok. All I meant was that you're stuck with an otherwise very saleable unit.