MZ-N707 + SonicStage gaps in recording?

[Nemo1966]

Hi, I am recording/transfering albums to my MZ-N707 using Sonicstage 4.3 (full details below). However when I play them back there are skips or blank gaps in some of the songs.

It's really annoying. What is the best way to transfer albums using NetMD?

I have tried SP mode and LP2 mode - both are the same. Also tried different makes of MD (Sony, TDK etc) The tracks play fine in SonicStage though. I haven't tried direct 1 to 1 transfer yet, but that sort of defeats the point of having a NetMD recorder.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SonicStage : 4.3.01.14050
SonicStage Security Update Program : 1.0.00.11020
SonicStage Add-on : 4.3.01.14050
OpenMG Secure Module : 5.0.00.11280
MagicGate Memory Stick Device : 5.0.00.11280
Ez : 5.0.00.11280
NW-E2, NW-E3, NW-E5 and NW-E8P : 5.0.00.11280
OpenMG CD : 5.0.00.11280
M.S. PRO : 5.0.00.11280
CD Walkman : 5.0.00.11280
ATRAC Audio Device with Intelligent function : 5.0.00.11280
Hi-MD : 5.0.00.11280
Music Clip, NW-S4, NW-E7 and NW-E10 : 5.0.00.11280
ATRAC Audio Device : 5.0.00.11280
Net MD : 5.0.00.11280
CD-R Writing Module(Audio CD/ATRAC CD/MP3 CD) : 4.3.01.14050
Px Engine: 3.4.36.500

[Nemo1966]

Deleted the conversion files in Sonic Stage and let them convert again and all seems fine now... strange?!?!?!?!

[sfbp]

Use the best battery you can AND plug in the external power supply. If you don't, there can and will be significant variations in power during transfer which can lead to drop outs.

You really should have an internal battery. Its presence stabilises the power in the unit. NetMD does not take power from USB.

 

[Nemo1966]

Thanks for the reply, I have a recharchable (new) and power supply was plugged in. However the battery wasnt fully charged when I did the first recording. I don't think that was the problem though.

I re-recorded the same album when the battery was charged and it was the same. I then noticed that ther was a NetUSB service running from an installation of MD Simple Burner. I removed that and haven't had a problem since. So fingers crossed....

Thanks

[sfbp]

Rechargeables are fine for playback. I would however use an alkaline every time, especially if you want the machine to last. Another fix is to carefully adjust the power supply (in the service routine for the unit) so that even with the lowest voltage from a rechargeable (around 1.1 volts) things still scrape through.

I don't doubt what you say about Simple Burner, but the resident part of that program is, as far as I know, removed when SonicStage runs. I'm not sure what you mean by a "NetUSB Service". How did you detect that, and what was the way you removed it? It's indeed possible that PC->NetMD transfer is affected by "ghost" drivers in the same way that MZRH1->PC is affected, which is that the system wastes time polling the driver for a unit that's not there. It's a while since I used SB since it doesn't run on Windows64. If you're talking about an actual service (SB service) running that affects recording, WELL DONE for a very astute observation!!!!

In the HiMD portables, the problem is a lot less bothersome as in all cases except the NH1 (I'm speaking ex cathedra here, and I may well be wrong but certainly someone confirmed that it helps to have a Li battery in the unit) the unit can draw some or all of its power from the USB. So NetMD with them is more reliable, basically because HiMD can use a lot more power anyway (look on the sticker on the bottom of every HiMD unit!). This assumes you understand that every HiMD machine is really two different machines logically - one that reads and writes legacy (Net)MD and one which uses the higher density format. Those two machines present different USB id's on the vBus.

All in all a complex picture. At least your N707 has an AA battery which can be alkaline.

[Nemo1966]

Great info:

The Service I was talking about was the MD Simple Burner Service (NetMDSB.exe*32) - NetUSB was a typo of sorts (automatic pilot, my brain saw USB). I found that it was indeed still running when I started SonicStage. I did install MD Simple Burner service separately though - I don't know if that has any affect on anything. 

While it's true SB doesn't run on Win64 - it appears the service for it still does and as you say I feel it may have been polling the USB. Detection was simply looking in the task manager to see if anything popped out at me and obviously NetMDSB.exe*32 did. To disable either go to Control Panel->Admin Tools->services, then stop and disable the service or from an administrator command prompt type "sc stop NetMDSB" and then to remove completely "sc delete NetMDSB" (both commands without the quotes).

Regarding the rechargable vs Alkaline battery - a good time to clear something up. I have a rechargable in the unit because I am using the "charging stand". I didn't want to put an Alkaline battery in because the unit "auto charges". How does it it work? Can I have an Alkaline battery in the unit and have it in the charging stand? I've looked at the manual but can't find much about power supply + Alkaline batteries.

I am also very interested in "Another fix is to carefully adjust the power supply" - could you embellish a little more on this please?

Another interesting point that your post has raised is hat the AC adapter supplied with my MZ-N707 is only 500ma. This seems low and I can't )yet) find the part number for the original - this one is AC-ES305 ***** EDIT: Yes it is the right AC adapter. Although that helps making a USB power cord easy though.

thanks again for the info

Steve

[Nemo1966]

Just tested the 3v ac adapter and it actually puts out 4.94v !!!!

[sfbp]

Yeah but under what value load?

More later... I'm on the road. Any battery that puts out more volts than the target "charged" voltage of a rechargeable battery will be ignored.

[Nemo1966]

Would the voltage drop nearly 2v on such a small load?

[bluecrab]

Just wanted to mention that, whatever else is going on, in all SS, SP = LP2—so when you say, "both are the same," that is doubly true. Of course, you may be aware of that already! Good luck! (BTW, the 3v adapter that puts out 4.9v...is that unusual?)

[Nemo1966]

11 hours ago, bluecrab said:

Just wanted to mention that, whatever else is going on, in all SS, SP = LP2—so when you say, "both are the same," that is doubly true. Of course, you may be aware of that already! Good luck! (BTW, the 3v adapter that puts out 4.9v...is that unusual?)

I really don't know about the 3v - 4.9v issue. I don't really understand why someone would call an AC adapter a 3v unit when it outputs 5v. I can understand that under load the voltage may drop, but why not just call it a 5v power supply if it outputs 5v? Lets look at the scenario that my sudo 3v power supply fails and I cannot find an original anywhere. I look in the manuals and it says the suppply is 3v 500ma. So knowing that generally regulated power supplies are better than unregulated I source a 3v 500ma AC Adapter. Great! But it is? The original was 5v and not 3v. What happens under load then? Will the new actual 3v power supply be enough? Conversely what becomes too much? a 3v power supply that outputs 6v...7v ....12v???

On The Raspberry PI they use a 5v regulated power supply and it outputs 5v, which seem fairly self explanatory. Using a higher voltage can damage the board. I would have thought that that on a 3v minidisc unit a 2v over supply would have damaged it?

[Nemo1966]

Anyway - I have done more testing and since removing the errant NetMDSB.exe*32 service i haven't had a single problem. I tested with a nearly depleted rechargable battery as well.

You never know it may help someone.

[NGY]

On 2016. 04. 03. at 11:53 AM, Nemo1966 said:

I really don't know about the 3v - 4.9v issue. I don't really understand why someone would call an AC adapter a 3v unit when it outputs 5v. I can understand that under load the voltage may drop, but why not just call it a 5v power supply if it outputs 5v? Lets look at the scenario that my sudo 3v power supply fails and I cannot find an original anywhere. I look in the manuals and it says the suppply is 3v 500ma. So knowing that generally regulated power supplies are better than unregulated I source a 3v 500ma AC Adapter. Great! But it is? The original was 5v and not 3v. What happens under load then? Will the new actual 3v power supply be enough? Conversely what becomes too much? a 3v power supply that outputs 6v...7v ....12v???

On The Raspberry PI they use a 5v regulated power supply and it outputs 5v, which seem fairly self explanatory. Using a higher voltage can damage the board. I would have thought that that on a 3v minidisc unit a 2v over supply would have damaged it?

There is a significant difference between linear and switching power supplies. Without going into deep technical details, I would just focus on one factor, that would help clarifying the confusion above - how the transformers behave in those devices.

Iron core transformers have complex physics, certain losses developing inside the transformer under load, the smaller the size a transformer and the smaller the frequency of the AC the larger this effect.

Linear power supplies have a transformer first, that decreases 50/60 Hz mains voltage to needed small range, then rectify and filter the voltage. One advantage is simplicity, also the low level of emitted electronic noise.

Switching power supplies rectify mains voltage first, then convert this DC to a high frequency (several 10/100 kHz) signal, and transform this signal into the needed small voltage DC. One advantage is that size/weight of the transformer is much-much smaller (and way less expensive), compared to those in the linear power supplies, plus the output DC voltage is already regulated to a certain level.

In those bulky looking wall adapters there are (or, used to be, for audio gear, for reasons above) mostly linear power supplies, and mostly there is no particular regulator circuitry there, as voltage regulation is done inside the device powered by the wall adapter.  This is why a simple wall adapter would output a significantly higher voltage unloaded, as the nominal voltage is reached at the nominal load. These transformers are purposely designed this way, to compensate for the losses caused by expected load. Dropping from 4.9V to 3V is normal, I should say.

Vast majority of modern small adapters, like those for mobile phones have a switching power supply inside, that's why the size can be such small, and why the output voltage is such close to nominal, even without a load.

[sfbp]

Right on. I was just about to make a comment along the lines of "You have to deliver the charging voltage, whatever that may be, to a battery/portable unit of varying resistance. Therefore an unloaded voltage of 4.9 may be about right once you get the battery and are passing close to the max current). There's some interesting articles in Wikipedia about this.

Another factor not mentioned is that wall supplies (which are generally not switching) are often rated 100-240V (Japan has only 100V 50Hz for most of the country and 90V in some of it). So perhaps one might expect the same adapter (if it is indeed that, I didn't look) to produce higher voltage when plugged into 220 than 110. The obverse of this particular coin came when I took a charger rated specifically 110-120 volts and plugged it, unthinking, into a 230V supply whilst on holiday in Europe. BANG!

The adjustment I referred to has to do with setting the levels a) of the mainboard supply b. used by the charging circuits to determine start or stop charging. For this you need a regulated power supply (big heavy lump with lots of dials usually) and access to Service mode (we can help with that). This frequently improves many of the characteristics of a portable MD player such as the screen contrast, ability to charge properly, and (maybe) recording ability. The correct way to deal with that is to do an "overall servo adjustment" where the automated testing cycle sets all the parameters (except power) for you.

But the observation about the service installed (probably incorrectly, as SB doesn't run in Win64 - it needs to be actually DE-installed) is an excellent one. Thanks.

[Nemo1966]

On ‎03‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 6:54 PM, sfbp said:

The adjustment I referred to has to do with setting the levels a) of the mainboard supply b. used by the charging circuits to determine start or stop charging. For this you need a regulated power supply (big heavy lump with lots of dials usually) and access to Service mode (we can help with that). This frequently improves many of the characteristics of a portable MD player such as the screen contrast, ability to charge properly, and (maybe) recording ability. The correct way to deal with that is to do an "overall servo adjustment" where the automated testing cycle sets all the parameters (except power) for you.

 

Strangely enough I have a big heavy lump with lots of dials - the best type of dials as well (old ones). Do I need to knock up a little cable with a connecto on it to suit the player?

Setting? 3v

 

thanks

Steve

 

[sfbp]

The service manual always spells it out precisely.

Before you start be advised NOT to do a so-called 911 Reset.

 

 

 

[Nemo1966]

Gee thanks

[sfbp]

I don't always have time to write essays, sorry. It's all there in previous posts but i don't have the time or inclination to summarize right now.

The underlying point is that if the power has slipped it's often completely unnecessary to redo everything else. If someone did a servo alignment when the power wasn't up to snuff then yes it may be necessary for the full Monty. Baby steps.....

[Nemo1966]

It's OK I think I solved it - bought a Sony JE780 deck

[sfbp]

Hahahah. If you did that for the NetMD, be aware that the response of the decks to NetMD is annoyingly slow. But that's a great deck by all accounts. According to guru Jim Hoggarth the difference between JE780 and JB980 is negligible.

[Nemo1966]

5 minutes ago, sfbp said:

Hahahah. If you did that for the NetMD, be aware that the response of the decks to NetMD is annoyingly slow. But that's a great deck by all accounts. According to guru Jim Hoggarth the difference between JE780 and JB980 is negligible.

Really? I have found it very quick in comparison to the MZ-N707. I did knock up a little starter app for sonicstage though - it sets the CPU priority to high on startup. This seems to help a lot to keep the USB focus on the app.

Really pleased with the deck in general - it's like new.