Clone MD > MD

[chri5]

Is it possible to clone a minidisc? MD > MD that retains album / song information? 

A professional deck maybe?

[sfbp]

The MDS-W1 does what you want for SP and MDLP disks.

HiMD isn't such a problem because as long as you unprotect them, uploaded files can be made to a new disk that looks a lot like the old one.

[philippeb]

7 hours ago, sfbp said:

The MDS-W1 does what you want for SP and MDLP disks.

The MDS-W1 clones SP and MONO tracks. LP2 and LP4 tracks cannot be cloned (they are transformed into silent SP tracks).

 

[chri5]

Does the MDS-W1 do bit for bit cloning? Info reads like it's an optical transfer? 

Looking at the MDS-B5/B6P seems promising: 'Two units cabled together can perform high speed (4X) disc cloning, including both audio and text, with no ATRAC generation loss.'

 

 

[PhilippeC]

The question is : how many discs do you need to copy ? If there are a few, maybe philippeb who live in France can do that for you.

[philippeb]

5 hours ago, chri5 said:

Does the MDS-W1 do bit for bit cloning? Info reads like it's an optical transfer? 

Looking at the MDS-B5/B6P seems promising: 'Two units cabled together can perform high speed (4X) disc cloning, including both audio and text, with no ATRAC generation loss.'

The MDS-W1 works exactly like a pair of B5/B6. It transfers raw ATRAC data, bit for bit (with defrag) via its internal optical link (as found by sfbp).

[sfbp]

15 hours ago, philippeb said:

The MDS-W1 clones SP and MONO tracks. LP2 and LP4 tracks cannot be cloned (they are transformed into silent SP tracks).

 

Speaking as a non-owner of an MDS-W1, didn't we speculate that one could easily TOC-clone the catalogue of an MDLP disk onto the destination?

Cheers

Stephen

[PhilippeC]

3 hours ago, sfbp said:

Speaking as a non-owner of an MDS-W1, didn't we speculate that one could easily TOC-clone the catalogue of an MDLP disk onto the destination?

Cheers

Stephen

Stephen, are you trying to imagine the W1 beeing some kind of a MD recovery unit ?

[chri5]

Thanks all, both units are a bit pricey for me. I have 150 to duplicate for a MD release on my record label next year. I've got a Tascam MD-02 deck that will hopefully last for the task.

[sfbp]

11 hours ago, PhilippeC said:

Stephen, are you trying to imagine the W1 beeing some kind of a MD recovery unit ?

Not exactly. But if it does duplicate the binary data, then:

a. this is what OP needs (sounds like he's making an SP release)

b. for MDLP disks, another deck will be used to clone the TOC, but the data will have been copied.

"Recovery" to me means getting data off a disk which is unplayable. I would hazard a guess that if the MDS-W1 copies such a disk, the result will also be unplayable.

[PhilippeC]

34 minutes ago, sfbp said:

"Recovery" to me means getting data off a disk which is unplayable. I would hazard a guess that if the MDS-W1 copies such a disk, the result will also be unplayable.

A test that philippeb could do (have done) one day when I will get (had got) an unreadable MD. 

[philippeb]

LP2/LP4 tracks are designed to fool pre-MDLP machines, that will recognize and play them as silent SP tracks. The W1 will clone them as such, and TOC cloning will not help, because the actual data transfered will be silence.

TOC Cloning is usefull for recovery (and resetting SCMS bits ; irrelevant for a W1 owner). I routinely perform TOC cloning with a MDS-JB920 to recover TOCs that I have damaged or erased by accident (I tend to edit my discs like mad).

Last remark. I have also helped members of the forum to recover data from poorly recorded disks, with a pro HHb MDP 500 Portadisc, that happens to be a champion at reading out of specs discs that other units fail to read.

 

 

[sfbp]

Oh, that's a shame. I'm sure you told us all this, and I forgot (about the data transferred NOT being all the data that is there but only silence).

[PhilippeC]

Aaah philippeb, one day I feel I will crack down in the MD world bying the W1 unit. At least I can find one quite easily in Viêt-Nam.

[bluecrab]

"Aaah philippeb, one day I feel I will crack down in the MD world bying the W1 unit. At least I can find one quite easily in Viêt-Nam.'

You can? What do they cost there?

[PhilippeC]

around 150-200$

[bluecrab]

That's not much! Well, if I'm ever in the neighborhood... [sigh]...I was just never quite able to get my hands on one of these. A couple of deals fell through (UK and JPN). A Danish guy was going to sell me one...until I got a Danish-speaking colleague involved, who found out that the would-be seller didn't actually have the deck yet...he could get me one, he said...no thanks, I said. And then there was someone here in the US who just wanted too much $$$. The big draw for me was not so much the bit-copy ability as it was the sequential play and the two independent mechanisms. C'est la vie.

[sfbp]

https://buyee.jp/item/search/query/mds--w1?translationType=1

[bluecrab]

Thanks! The prices on buyee certainly are in line with what I would pay. However, my prior experience there resulted in what seemed to be higher additional fees than they originally stated, and by a lot. There was also an issue with the new-looking item itself (MDS-JA22ES) that had  to be resolved. With help from here and elsewhere, the problem was fixed, although likely not permanently. Perhaps that was just a one-off in terms of what to expect, but it did make me wary. It doesn't help that all the MDS-W1 units are almost 20 years old now, with no easy way to tell beforehand what each one has been through. Five years ago, I probably would have just done it and hoped for the best. Not so today. Still tempting!

[PhilippeC]

I bought a deck only if I am sure that i will be able to find a replacement for a lens and drive parts. Pham Cu (member here) is my own Jim "fix it" Hoggart of mine and is a good adviser. 

[chri5]

Had another thought re cloning and trying to save time copying 100s of discs in real time.

Once I've recorded the master minidisc (CD>OPTICAL>MD) in original standard play format. 

Using the mz-rh1 I name the tracks on the minidisc via sonic stage then copy the atrac files from the disc to the PC. Put another minidisc in the mz-rh1 and copy the atrac files back to MD?

 

[PhilippeC]

1 hour ago, chri5 said:

Had another thought re cloning and trying to save time copying 100s of discs in real time. Once I've recorded the master minidisc (CD>OPTICAL>MD) in original standard play format. Using the mz-rh1 I name the tracks on the minidisc via sonic stage then copy the atrac files from the disc to the PC. Put another minidisc in the mz-rh1 and copy the atrac files back to MD?

Easiest way

1) transfer the CD tracks on the PC in lossless format like WMA

2) import the files in Sonic Stage

3) transfer to the MD (except SP, SS is creating a false one) : LP2, LP4, all Hi-MD formats

4) SP = only real time, music can come from the PC (WMA lossless files) or the CD in the tray or a CD player.

I don't think that creating a MD in real time then upload the files with a RH1 and transfer them to another MD using SS (not SP this time) can save you time. More, the music is compressed the first time and will be recompressed the second time. Transfer PC to MD mean a compression. If you record in real time live music in PCM, you can make a MD copy that will compressed only one time.

The MD copy process is NOT a thing that Sony has wanted to be easy, except for pro unit or with the MDS- W1 physically hacked or with a service mode trick.

 

 

[chri5]

damn, a long duplication session awaits me

[PhilippeC]

But WHY do you need to duplicate 100s of MDs ? Maybe I can give you some ideas...

[chri5]

I run a record label and plan a release next year on MD. I've sourced over 150 MDs. 

[PhilippeC]

I have read than a guy somewhere in the world years ago have released in own music only (or also) on a minidisc : was this you ?

There is also a corean guy here who built nice cardboard boxes label design (see link but there are no more pictures)

See also

This unit is the one for MD copying. Maybe you could have a deal with philippeb (in France) to borrow one of his W1. Or ask him to make all that work for you (2 or 3 MD copy per day) or you pay a price more expensive than the correct price to philippeb for his unit, have done the job in one or two months and then when job is done, send his unit back (and your money back to you) .

I know that I could find one of those W1 units here (hacked) but this is quite risky to send it to England. This is much easier to send 150 or more MD blanks to somebody who have an unit in Europe. Maybe you can ask on the Facebook Minidisc Group if somebodu has a unit W1 to sell ? 

[punkrockaddict]

On 11.12.2017 at 8:16 AM, philippeb said:

The MDS-W1 clones SP and MONO tracks. LP2 and LP4 tracks cannot be cloned (they are transformed into silent SP tracks).

 

Let alone this Fact tells me that the Discs aren´t cloned but rather just re-encoded.

I got a Denon MD Replicator that copies all Discs. The Unit is pre MDLP but copies them too.

That said it´s pure logic that the MDS-W1 don´t copy the Raw Atrac Data isn´t it ?

that unit

[punkrockaddict]

On 19.12.2017 at 10:38 AM, chri5 said:

Had another thought re cloning and trying to save time copying 100s of discs in real time.

Once I've recorded the master minidisc (CD>OPTICAL>MD) in original standard play format. 

Using the mz-rh1 I name the tracks on the minidisc via sonic stage then copy the atrac files from the disc to the PC. Put another minidisc in the mz-rh1 and copy the atrac files back to MD?

 

Import Format can be .wav and Atrac3+256 kb/s. If you want to transfer them to a 2nd Disc you are limited to Atrac3+ or MDLP modes.There is no software based Sp encoder :/

So after all you will need a Denon unit like mine or the Sony professional Decks as mentioned before.

There´s a test Version of QHimd that transfers .wav files @ 4xSpeed to SP on NetMD units. The Recorder does the decode part similar to the combo Decks.

I tried this myself some times but didn´t succeed to get a 100% playable Disc.There was constant nooise after a certain % .I think a 32Bit OS could have been the Key to get a working Disc in the end

Or you go straight Hi-MD .. which is not what you might want to

Edited December 23, 2017 by punkrockaddict
add info

[philippeb]

2 hours ago, punkrockaddict said:

Let alone this Fact tells me that the Discs aren´t cloned but rather just re-encoded.

I got a Denon MD Replicator that copies all Discs. The Unit is pre MDLP but copies them too.

That said it´s pure logic that the MDS-W1 don´t copy the Raw Atrac Data isn´t it ?

I agree with you that the Denon MD Replicator is the most suitable machine for dumb disc replication. Regarding the versatile MDS-W1, your are wrong : the W1 copies raw data bit for bit in the ATRAC domain, without reencoding. I proved it a while ago in another thread.

I uploaded original and copy tracks with MZ-RH1/Sonic Stage to a computer, and compared the resulting data files. They were bit for bit identical, except for the very last frame -- yes, this is a firmware bug, easily worked around or ignored, as the last frame is usually silent.

That said, I knew it from the start. My ears are still good enough to distinguish between ATRAC generations, simply by listening to the tracks

 

[chri5]

Slightly off topic, if I use SonicStage to transfer the files I have recorded in standard MD format, does SonicStage compress them or alter them when copying back to PC? I'm using the RH1 to transfer them.

[sfbp]

Unfortunately, yes.

Exceptions are:

a. all Hi-MD formats

b. all MDLP formats

(ie everything except SP).

MD->PC gets converted to Hi-SP (I think: but someone's going to tell me that under the covers it uses PCM and the PCM->WAV happens at the PC).

PC->MD gets converted to LP2 and padded when it gets to the MD. We refer to this as "Fake SP".

Sorry.

[PhilippeC]

Stephen, remember me the  name of your convertion audio software dealing with atrac files.

[sfbp]

Sound Forge (by Sony)

Happy Christmas / Joyeux Noel

[PhilippeC]

Can you explain again (and again) why Sound Forge is usueful for you ?

Fender-MD said that "Sound forge allows converting FLAC to AA3 (unprotected atrac3plus anybitrate you need or even atrac Lossless) with a batch processor. The only problem is that it doesn't copy metadatas from the source to the destination..."

What happen with the metadatas if the source is Wma lossless instead of Flac ?

Still no conversion possible in SP even passing by Atrac lossless ?

 

 

[sfbp]

(Up in mid-night so won't be long or even necessarily accurate - you've seen my answers under such condition before!)

It's useful because I can:

a. edit out pops, clicks and background noise as well as split accurately without wearing out buttons on some poor MD unit that needs to survive

b. transform in lots of ways (mix channels etc), fade in and out, increase volume digitally etc (all the things one does in cooledit/audacity like normalize or  balance)

c. change formats (eg WAV->MP3) by using SaveAs. I have no experience with WMA (except once) or Flac (also once when I received a set of files)

d. Edit ATRAC (which no other tool can do). Note that much of the metadata in this case is almost the same as MP3 with "ID" replaced by "EA" in the header if I remember it right, ie EA3 instead of ID3. So very easy for *that* metadata to be transformed.

Please note, the batch processing referred to does not come in the free (or $30) version of SF. For that you need Sound Forge Pro which costed $500 or so. Not even sure it's still available legitimately, and I have never used it. Studio Pro and Studio Platinum do NOT contain SF Pro - but only the regular Sound Forge (9 or 10). However it's not difficult to edit 30 files (a whole CD or MD full) as the editor is very efficient on use of RAM, using virtual memory very nicely.

SP was carefully designed by Sony not to be a PCdisk-based format. We think maybe part of their agreement with Dolby, but there may be some technical reason too. So whilst Adrian and his gang may be able to create the SP format, there are no software tools to manipulate it available, at least outside Sony Corporation. One may as well just buy an MDS-W1 or Denon diskduplicator. SP also predates the IDEA of metadata, it's just raw data (as is PCM); whereas MDLP and A3+ (aka ATRAC-X) have metadata built into the file format.

[PhilippeC]

Thanks, the 25th 12 night you're supposed to sleep well because last night was busy.

[chri5]

I have seen some strange behaviour when duplicating minidiscs. I'm using optical sync on a Tascam MD-02 deck. The total length of each disk varies by +/- 2 seconds. 

Also had some sync errors which means a track is missing, this happens in about 1 in every 5 discs. 

I know this problem wont be common as not many will have had the need to duplicate so many discs but just wondering if you have any thoughts or suggestions?

[philippeb]

5 hours ago, chri5 said:

I have seen some strange behaviour when duplicating minidiscs. I'm using optical sync on a Tascam MD-02 deck. The total length of each disk varies by +/- 2 seconds.

Just a guess : the total lenght may vary depending on the level at which a low signal is treated as silence by the recorder.

[chri5]

This does effect the length but, it's the same CD being copied and the same setting used to sync (silence level detect + new track detect on the Tascam). 

 

Also I have come across some bad minidiscs that throw more sync errors to the point I have to abandon the copy and use another disc!

[PhilippeC]

chris5, as you told me in a PM that you (or make) print yourself the cover/booklet, can you show us exactly how do you make it (templates, etc) ?