SonicStage 2.1, an assessment.

[jadeclaw]

Now the central point:

A comparison of the different codecs and datarates:

I took the same track and encoded it with everything, SS2 had to offer. 

PCM - the original track. 

Hi-SP 256k - to my ears, it was fully transparent. However, listening through the whole track, the PCM orignal had a little more openness. Hardly to describe, A-B comparison doesn't reveal it, it runs on a subconscious level - It feels better, more relaxed, easier...

Still,  Hi-SP delivers an excellent result.

Hi-LP - 64k - It sucks. I don't know, how some people think that this is better than MP3@128k. Compression artefacts and discoloration is well audible. I say, for speech or recording of analog shortwave transmissions only. Sorry, but digital shortwave(DRM) even sounds better... ( That uses MP4-AAC-SBR)

Hi-LP2 - 48k - It sucks even more.  Speech and analog telephone only. Carbon mic anyone?

NetMD LP2 - 132k - very good FM quality. It sound rougher than Hi-SP but for listening on the road or in the car, it is more than adequate. Regarding the bad results for Hi-LP, I cannot understand, why there is no Hi-MD mode with that datarate. It would have been a good compromise between quality and running time.

NetMD LP'3' - 105k - Rougher as 132k and sounding more compressed, losing more of the recording room. However, still far superior compared to Hi-LP. I would recommend that over Hi-LP anytime...

NetMD LP4 - 66k - It sucks. Less highrange than Hi-LP, gargling sound like someone singing underwater... Sorry, speech only.

So, on a scale between 100% and 0% the ranks are as follows:

PCM : 100%  (It's the Original)

Hi-SP 256k : 99%

Old SP 292k (MDS-JE500) : 97%

NetMD LP2 - 132k : 90%

NetMD LP'3' - 105k : 85%

Hi-LP - 64k : 40%

NetMD LP4 - 66k : 30%

Hi-LP2 - 48k : 20%

In comparison, my old ST-S370 FM-Tuner still manages around 87%

and my Galaxis DVB-C Digital receiver would got 95%.

I included the old assessment, so I can concentrate on the differences between 2.1 and 2.0.

Let's start with Hi-SP 256k, no improvement, but no degradation either, a very good result - 99%

NetMD LP2 - 132k : 90%, things run now a bit smoother here, the 90% still stand.

NetMD LP'3' - 105k : 85%, same here, cannot complain.

Hi-LP - 64k : 50% : Quality improved, the discolorations are gone, the compression artefacts are less audible, but it still suffers when things get complex on the stage,

Hi-Hats catch a warbling effect, especially when other instruments demand bandwith. More about that later.

NetMD LP4 - 66k : 30%, no improvement, the old result stands. Btw, it kills the stereo effect almost completely.

Hi-LP2 - 48k : 40%, Quality improved here as well, the carbon mic is gone, but the low bandwith is audible.

But now it is an improvement compared to LP4.

I then decided to take another CD into the test, the excellent Getz/Gilberto album from 1963.

The version here is the digital reissue from 1997, which has been remastered to provide a quality you do not expect from a 40 year old analog tape.

However, one fault hasn't been fixed on that one, a constant phase shift between the channels.

In addition, it features partly true 'ping-pong' stereo. And that makes LP4 fall flat on its nose.

Switch to mono, turn down the treble control on the amp completely and reverse the polarity on one speaker. What you then get, is what LP4 delivers.

Now on to Hi-LP, here it sounds remarkably pleasant, but when things get crowded, you can hear the voice and the instruments fighting for bandwith.

But Hi-LP still sounds better than MP3@128k with this one. How can that, especially after reading my old review?

It is simple, the phase shift I noted earlier and the way the MP3 codec works at 128k and below.

It is the Joint Stereo and that's, how it works: First, both channels are mixed down to mono, that is our L+R signal.

Then the channels are subtracted, giving us the differences, the L-R signal. That saves on bandwith but lets fall the encoder flat on its nose.

First the mixdown, that one alone already produces audible phasing effects, then the L-R grows as big as the L+R, so that the encoder runs out of bandwith.

In addition, since parts of both signals doesn't make it into the data stream, additional warbling artefacts end up in the decoded signal.

Result, that one is unbearable at 128k. Atrac tackles the problem differently, thus avoiding the phasing effects.

However, clean digital recordings give a different picture, with MP3@128k clearly outperforming Hi-LP, but not reaching LP2 @ 132k.

Btw, the Getz/Gilberto album is still available at Amazon.com:

Normal CD

SACD (Hi-Res audio)

Finally a word about stability, it managed to convert my 370 file album without crashing. I froze during playback of this album somewhere towards the end. I therefor recommend to stay below 100 tracks per album. An Audio CD has 99 tracks as the limit.

During the whole testing session, it never crashed, a vast improvement over 2.0. I think, we've moved from Alpha preview close to final beta.

So, thats it for this version, comments and additional listening reports are welcome, especially comparisons between the encoder in the recorder and SS2.1

[sxc]

You really think there are discernible differences in the codec? Now I have to convert my collection again??

[jadeclaw]

If you used LP2@105k or better, no. The very small difference isn't worth the effort.

If you used Hi-LP or LP4 then yes. But not to use these again, instead rerip to use the better ones.

I still consider Hi-LP or LP4 unfit for serious music playback.

[Latexxx]

It is the Joint Stereo and that's, how it works: First, both channels are mixed down to mono, that is our L+R signal.

Then the channels are subtracted, giving us the differences, the L-R signal. That saves on bandwith but lets fall the encoder flat on its nose.

First the mixdown, that one alone already produces audible phasing effects, then the L-R grows as big as the L+R, so that the encoder runs out of bandwith.

In addition, since parts of both signals doesn't make it into the data stream, additional warbling artefacts end up in the decoded signal.

Result, that one is unbearable at 128k. Atrac tackles the problem differently, thus avoiding the phasing effects.

For f*ucks sake, joint stereo m/s (used @ 128 by all encoders) is lossless!!!

Look at:

http://harmsy.freeuk.com/mostync/

http://www.audiocoding.com/wiki/index.php?...M%2FS+Matrixing

[dex Otaku]

I spent some time last night ripping tracks with EAC to import in SS2.1 [which though I haven't got my Hi-MD yet, it should arrive tomorrow, I finally downloaded and installed].

18 tracks in all, including a few Telarc classical CDs, Pink Floyd, Nine Inch Nails, Smashing Pumpkins, Kitchens of Distinction, Enya, VAST, Wynton Marsalis, and Depeche Mode.

My choice of tracks was made deliberately for things that I knew were either quite detailed, soundstage-wise [the jazz and classical CDs], or simply hell for codecs [like the multi-layered distorted guitars of Smashing Pumpkins and other sonically dense mixes, Kitchens of Distinctions being one of my faves here since it has such a 'full' high-end].

I encoded all tracks only using atrac3plus modes, as I doubt I'll ever use the atrac codec. First at 256kbps, the 64, then 48.

My listening equipment is not optimal, so here's my frame of reference: Revo7.1 analogue -> Logitech z680 controller [using headphone amp output], Sennheiser HD330 headphones c.1996 [$285CAD at that time if that gives any idea as to where they stand]. SRS + Dolby processing turned off, of course, no EQ.

To note once again: all material was encoded straight from PCM using Sonicstage 2.1's atrac3plus codec.

My results:

256kbps - Almost exactly what I was expecting, with a few .. oddities. Soundstage is excellent, no audible flanging even with the most difficult tracks I selected, though.. Some very minor but still discernable differences in dynamics. Sharp transients seem okay, though transients leading from quiet to loud passages [as in the track I selected from NIN] seem .. anticipated rather than merely encoded. It's not quite something I could put my finger on, but perhaps related to the [still failure] with the [pre-echoing] castanets test mentioned on HeadFi.

Certain instruments lose a little air; Wynton's trumpet and the burr in Dave Gahan's voice [of Depeche Mode] in particular go from being clear with PCM to sounding glossed. It's not as though the high end is gone, per sé - just that it seems gently gated in certain parts or smoothed over.

So.. end opinion at 256k: the two most obvious artifacts I could discern were a slight loss in dynamics [an almost compressed sound] and a high-end that sounds somewhat smoothed over. Detail is still good, though, and I could sense no discernable flanging or ringing even with material that drives mp3 nuts.

64kbps: Wow! No, really - wow! I am quite surprised by how decent 64kbps atrac3plus sounds. I actually would rate this better than mp3 at 128kbps, but not because it's sonically great by any means.

Here the high end is even more glossed over. As I said, I deliberately chose tracks that I know other codecs have difficulty with - atrac3plus here was no exception. Still, given that the bitrate is this low, I'm surprised by .. not how good it sounds, but how .. not bad, it sounds. I'd say that for listening in a car or similarly noisy environment where a lot is masked already anyway, this might be acceptable for general listening.

Dynamics sound sort of .. artificial. Almost as though there's expansion being applied. Could be variable lowpass-filtering similar to mp3's VBR modes. There is definite flanging and warbling in most of the tracks I encoded, though it is soft and actually... this may sound strange, but I can only say that unlike mp3, the artifacting taking place here is not as unpleasant to hear. Low-bitrate mp3 sounds like an AM radio playing in a tin can underwater to me; atrac3plus @64kbps by comparison seems more like an FM radio sitting on the beach. The artifacting seems more like waves than blurts and bubbles.

End opinion of 64kbps: Pleasantly surprised, though this isn't even remotely audiophile-quality. Suitable for listening in situations where background noise will be masking a significant part of the program anyway. I wouldn't use this for anything serious. Still, I think it's preferable to 128k mp3, but not because there's less artifacting - rather because the artifacting is less obtrusive, gentler even. I'd agree that for low-fi recordings such as voice or AM/shortwave radio, this should do fine.

48kbps: Again, exactly what I expected. How Sony expects any consumer to think that this is listenable, and to prefer using it so they can fit 40+ hours on a disc, I don't know. As Jadeclaw and others have said, this is suitable for voice recordings. Music just sounds like crap through it; the step from 64 down to 48kbps is hugely noticeable in a very bad way. Think warbling, gated highs.. smudged out low-end with no detail at all.. significant flanging distortion that is basically constant.

The only good thing I have to say about 48k is that, as with the 64kbps mode, the artifacting is less grating on my ears than that of mp3 [or AAC or even OGG, IMO].

---

Sonicstage, though.. hmm. Well, it's not as bad as I was expecting.

The music library system is crap. Having used iTunes since it came out for PC, as well as having used Winamp since pre-1.0 days, Sonicstage seems a huge step.. sideways, if not backwards.

The system of organising into albums isn't really that bad. What I don't like about it is that you have to keep clicking back and forth between things in order to get anywhere.

There's no way in hell I would use this as my PC-based general music player. Which is kind of rough, because if I want to maintain a library to transfer to and from my Hi-MD, I'll have to be reripping or transcoding things all the time. Please note that my current music library is 25+GB of mostly lame-vbr encoded MP3s; moving this into Sonicstage would take a while, to say the least, and while I find 256kbps atrac3plus stands beside my current encodings rather well, the system SS uses for organising things leaves a lot to be desired.

Not much else to say about it until my recorder gets here.

Cheers.

[jadeclaw]

For [expletive deleted] sake, joint stereo m/s (used @ 128 by all encoders) is lossless!!!

I've never claimed anything differently.

The key here is, that the encoder saves bandwidth, if it has to encode 1 full channel (L+R) plus the differences.

The phase shift now creates so many differences between the channels that in fact the encoder has to encode 2 full channels. And thats the point, where the encoder runs out of bandwidth, just like a car going to fast running out of road...

How to avoid this? Either account for the possibility, that this happens, e.g. by limiting the datarate for the difference signal, or do it the VQF-way - processing the channels completely separately.

@dex: Yes, you're right, the Library system needs quite an improvement before it is useable. Winamp's system is topclass compared to this.

Hmm, your listening results are interesting, 256k sounded completely transparent to me. Btw, I ripped directly from CD as well. I think, it is time for me to train my ears a bit more. Thanks for the report

PS: Equipment used: CM8738 based soundcard --> digital out(no resampling) --> Sony MDS-S38 in Monitor mode as D/A-converter - headphone out --> Beyer Dynamic DT770.

[Latexxx]

@dex&jadeclaw,

did you abx'ed the samples or is this something like "but it feels much better" placebo effect. Some information on abx: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=16295

[dex Otaku]

@dex&jadeclaw,

did you abx'ed the samples or is this something like "but it feels much better" placebo effect.

I know what abx'ing is. No, I didn't use abx. I just compared them directly and knowingly.

The purpose of the [100% subjective] test I did wasn't to see if I could pick which was what - it was to listen for the differences, quite deliberately, consciously, and intentionally. Which is not what I see abx as for.

Yes, I did repeatedly switch between sources [pcm/256k/etc.].

I think the end result is still reliable in the sense that only the most major differences would stand out by listening this way - and that's what I was looking for.

Hope that helps.

As for the placebo effect, if there was actually anything in what I said that seemed like a Stereo Review product review - other than how surprised I was at how 'not bad' 64kbps was - please point it out.

Cheers.

[Latexxx]

I did a simple double blind listening test. Atrac3plus faired pretty well. Look at http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=24735 .

@dex, read the following: http://skepdic.com/blondlot.html

[dex Otaku]

@dex, read the following:http://skepdic.com/blondlot.html

Good story.

But like I said, 100% subjective, and consciously so.

Consciously subjective i.e. a personal opinion, including all my biases.

I am anything but infallible.

Still, I think expressing an opinion helps others in some way.

[PDOG58]

FYI: I just instaled SS2.1, it works well except for one major problem.... it cant rip to ATRAC3 or ATRAC3plus. The only option I can pic is PCM. I NEVER had a problem with this with SS2.0. It wil PLAY ATRAC3plus files, it just wont rip them.

[jadeclaw]

@dex&jadeclaw,

did you abx'ed the samples or is this something like "but it feels much better" placebo effect.

Nope, no blind test. Knowingly comparing to the uncompressed original.

And not looking for anything on the subconscious level either.

Instead I looked for audible differences, that I could clearly point at. And these differences showed up consistently at and below 132k.

Looked this morning on Amazon.de and found out, they had cut the price of the NH700 down to 239,-- Euros, so I gave my CreditCard the stretcher treatment. According to Amazon, it should show up tomorrow.

Methinks, more testing is due. If the results are to my liking, 2 MD-Decks will go up on eBay for end of the month.

@dex, read the following:http://skepdic.com/blondlot.html

Good one and I try to avoid to fall in the same trap.

FYI: I just instaled SS2.1, it works well except for one major problem.... it cant rip to ATRAC3 or ATRAC3plus. The only option I can pic is PCM. I NEVER had a problem with this with SS2.0. It wil PLAY ATRAC3plus files, it just wont rip them.

Try uninstalling following the instructions given here:

http://forums.minidisc.org/viewtopic.php?t=4171

and reinstall SS2.1.

You should then be able to set the codec with the button under the red transfer button.

[mmp64]

Does the improvement in Hi-LP you observed in SS 2.1 carry over to Simple Burner as well?

[jadeclaw]

Never tried it as I don't have a recorder yet. If it uses the same encoding engine, then yes, if it has its own, then maybe.

Hmm, a point worth investigating...

[PDOG58]

I tried what you suggested. now it says that it cant find the OpenMG so it wont open SS2.1

Dang it Sony! Whan will you get your act together? To make a SIMPLE upgrade, you require users to jump through all sorts of hoops and do things that most simple users cant do. And you expect a format to take off when it requires this much work? NEVER!

[Christopher]

PDOG, uninstall via the directions in the NetMD faq and then install a fresh copy from connect.com.

[PDOG58]

PDOG, uninstall via the directions in the NetMD faq and then install a fresh copy from connect.com.

That IS what i did!

[PDOG58]

This is absolutely freaking rediculous! I give up., Seriously. I give up. I was planning on buying one of the Hi-MD players, but until they can get this thing fixed and make a reliable installer, they are NOT getting my business. The I-Pod is looking very nice right now. F-YOU SONY!

[Christopher]

Calm down there. Are you sure that you absolutely followed the instructions in the faq? Registry edits, uninstalls and all?

[PDOG58]

Calm down there. Are you sure that you absolutely followed the instructions in the faq? Registry edits, uninstalls and all?

I followed it to a T. Plus: If Sony could figureout how to write a proper upgrade program, we would have to go through 20 steps just to instal a .1 upgrade. 90% of all users would give up and return the product. THat is really bad business. I did follow everything if said, but I also shouldnt have to.

[PDOG58]

Ok, here is the deal. It looks like the installer is installing everything EXCEPT "OpenMG Secure Module 4.0". After the instaler finishes, it reboots my computer. I try to start SS2.1 and it says OpenMG is not installed. So, I run the installer again and it just skips over the OpenMG instalation. That seems to be the crux of the problem.

[DrZhivago]

Ok, here is the deal. It looks like the installer is installing everything EXCEPT "OpenMG Secure Module 4.0". After the instaler finishes, it reboots my computer. I try to start SS2.1 and it says OpenMG is not installed. So, I run the installer again and it just skips over the OpenMG installation. That seems to be the crux of the problem.

Yeah,I had the same problem. What I figured out was to do manual installation of components. If I was you, I'd remove files that you have installed. Go to registry and delete all Sony entries (as described in kurisu's help thread). Then downolad ss 2.1 again,but after download is completed and installer starts,cancel it. Go to

C:Documents and SettingsDrZhivagoLocal SettingsTemp

*replace DrZhivago with local user name! :grin:

** C may not be letter for your HD :grin:

Here are your components in SS folder. OpenMG,SS2.1 Hi-Md drivers etc.

In following order:

Unzip and install Launcher / Launcher-CONNECT.zip

Unzip and install OpenMG / OpenMGSetup.zip

Unzip and install ??? / SS-SL-English.zip

Unzip and install SS 2.1 / SS-English.zip

Unzip and install SS 2.1 patch / SS-Add-English-CDDB-SMB-XPCD.zip

This should work,as it did for me 100 %.

Also install Hi-MD personal audio driver(if you don't have one) You can find it here.

http://www.sonydigital-link.com/DNA/himd/himd.asp?l=es

Cheers

[PDOG58]

I'll try that when I get home tonight. THe fact that I have to go through all those steps just to make a simple upgrade, is absolutely rediculous. I am not reinstalling WOndos here! It;s just going from SS2.0 to SS2.1. How dumb.

[PDOG58]

I go to install OpenMG manually and it tells me "1607: Unable to install InstalShield Scripting RunTime"

[dex Otaku]

I had a problem similar to this and fixed by by not using the online installer version.

After downloading the entire thing as one file, the installer stopped complaining about incorrect versions of the MSI installer and needing to update Installshield.

[DrZhivago]

I go to install OpenMG manually and it tells me "1607: Unable to install InstalShield Scripting RunTime"

That's it. :wacky: Get yourself an iPod and install iTunes. :grin:

Jokes aside. I don't have clue mate? I assume that you have removed OpenMG first from Add/Remove panel, and deleted both sony folders from Registry. If that was the case,I don't know. What OS you are on?

[DrZhivago]

I had a problem similar to this and fixed by by not using the online installer version. 

After downloading the entire thing as one file, the installer stopped complaining about incorrect versions of the MSI installer and needing to update Installshield.

Where did you get that thing in one file?

Cheers

[dex Otaku]

Where did you get that thing in one file?

Cheers

Um. It appears I was thinking of another piece of software I installed around the same time as Sonicstage. My mistake, sorry.

[PDOG58]

That's it. :wacky: Get yourself an iPod and install iTunes. :grin:

Jokes aside. I don't have clue mate? I assume that you have removed OpenMG first from Add/Remove panel, and deleted both sony folders from Registry. If that was the case,I don't know. What OS you are on?

I did all that and I am running Windows XP Home

[PDOG58]

I wrote Sony with my problem and explained that it will not install OpenMG. This was their ever "helpful" responce......

Thank you for contacting Sony Connect!

Make sure when you are installing the new version, that you uninstall the version you already have on the computer. While it does generally overwrite the older version, it may be causing the issue where OpenMG is not installed.

That's it! That is all! That is the WORST tech support I have ever seen.

[PDOG58]

Part of this that really sucks is that I took a lot of stuff that I had in MP3 and encoded it to the OMG format then deleted the MP3. I figured I wouldnt need them again. So, if i dont get this fixed I will never be able to recover those files

[PDOG58]

I am on the phone with Tech Support as we speak. As of right now, they have no idea what the problem is.

Edit: Ok, she talked to some of the people around her and they said they have been getting a lot of phone calls with this issue. They are not sure what the problem is. However, they did think it might be a problem with having to download it off the web. So, she said in a week or 2 they will be offering 2.1 on CD and they think that might solve the problem. So, it looks like all of us who are having problems are going to have to wait a few weeks.

[Leland]

I had this problem when I upgraded and fixed it this way: I started the install a second time from the web, but kept the TMP folder where the downloaded files were being kept. After all the files needed for OpenMG Secure module were done, I copied them to another folder. Then I cancelled the rest of the download and installation. Then when I started SS 2.1, it said I needed to install OpenMG secure module. It gave the option of installing it then. I used the browse feature to point to the OpenMG Secure Module.msi file I had grabbed. It installed, but when finished the process seemed to lock up. After the progress bar was full and sat there for about 5 minutes, I closed the install dialog box behind it and I think perhaps also the progress dialog that appeared frozed. SS 2.1 then just opened and everything worked. If you can follow this, you might try it. I was surprised it worked because of the awkward completion of the process etc, but it worked.

[IcewynG]

Don't know if could be your problem PDOG, but I had the same error you are experiencing. The reason why you are getting that error is probably because your Windows installer is disabled in the services. Go to Start/Run/services. Scroll down and click on windows installer. If is it disabled, put it on automatic. If you have succeeded to have the manual files, it will work like a charm.

Hope it helps!

[Jimmix]

I had the same problem..in other threads they say that you must use steps in the NetMD faq to uninstall the software and then reinstall. I just uninstalled from Control Panel and reinstalled and it worked for me...I had to reboot my computer though.

[Jimmix]

Hey guyd what would you say to this assesment:

In an overall view Atreac3+ @64/48 would be fine if you were an average consumer who liked sound in tape (remember those days when you actually had to record your best tunes to tape?)

For my not audiophile ears theese bitrates may sound "comparable" to when we used average tape recordings (not high tech), dont you think?

Awaiting you comment....

[Christopher]

In an overall view Atreac3+ @64/48 would be fine if you were an average consumer who liked sound in tape..

For my not audiophile ears theese bitrates may sound "comparable" to when we used average tape recordings (not high tech), dont you think?

I would have to agree, somewhat - espesically with "average tape recordings". It all depends, though..don't be embarassed if that bitrate sounds good to you. Some people like it and don't have any problem with it, and we don't scorn them [completely]. :happy:

[jadeclaw]

Well, except for the noise level, Hi-LP 64k/48k can not hold up against my old Aiwa AD 3500 Tape deck.

But seeing, what is sold today in the lower price range, especially the twin cassette decks with high speed dubbing - compared to that Hi-LP sounds great...

[Jimmix]

One neat think I think should be nice though is that SonicStage had an option like other encoders as to decide if you want more quality at the expense of the time it will take to enconde the music, however I ignore if ATRAC has this option in the first place.

[doclloyd]

Jimmix, this option is available when you're transferring tracks to MD (and presumably any Sony device). It's an option under a button between the left and right portions of the transfer window. I'd explain it better if I were at my home computer right now.