Spectrum analyzation of WAV, 256kbps ATRAC3+, 132kbps ATRAC3

[MZ-NH1]

With the music files at ATRAC3plus 256, correct me if I'm wrong, but the 80min Hi-MD discs can only hold around 40 songs. (Not sure how many songs the new 1GB discs take, because I don't have any at the moment) With the bit rate at 64kbps, I have been able to fit around 160 songs onto an MD. Is this how many songs you normally have on your MD (40) when in 256-bit rate, and with the new 1GB discs does anyone know roughly how many tracks you can get them with 256-bit rate please?

[aeriyn]

Well, I don't know the number of tracks since that's totally relative to the track lengths.

I do know that with Standard MD you get a bit under two and a half hours of Hi-SP audio, and with Hi-MD you get about seven-ish hours.

[MZ-NH1]

Kk. I should have just looked in the User Manual :S sorry Thanks for your quick reply

[jimmyjazz]

Fellow MD lovers,

While I must say that I was immediately turned off by the unwelcomed-ness I felt in my very first post (everyone else seems to get a cheerful "welcome" or "we'll take care of you" or such, while I just got scolded for a seemingly out-of-topic reply which was nothing more than an offered solution to people who might be reading that certain thread...not to mention I've seen many more off-topic replies abound here...), I shall try this once more to see if there's any response.

This time I am seeking clarification. I've been reading this thread, trying to make practical sense out of bitrates and whatnot. Bottom line, can someone summarize the general consensus on quality of Hi-SP versus Type-R (I currently have an N707). Will I be disappointed with my live recordings/studio sessions if I upgrade? I guess this is a more appropriate question...Since my n707 is failing, I need to replace it anyhow. Can I at the very least consider the nh900 a full upgrade from the n707 in terms of sound quality? Is there any difference between the plain MD mode "SP, LP2, and LP4" of the nh900 and those of the n707?

In other words, let's say for the moment all I'm concerned with is using the SP, LP2, and LP4 modes I had on my n707. Will the bitrates of the standard MD mode on the nh900 be equal to or greater than the n707 so that I can consider my new recorder at least a direct replacement if not a great upgrade when I factor in all the other features?

It looks like the debate over whether HI-SP and SP type-R is going back and forth between technical specs and user opinions of aural impressions, but is there any cut and dry drawback to letting go of my n707 (other than PCM)? What is the difference between type-r and type-s, and which modes will it affect (and in what way)?

Also, not to make this too long, but I thought I read somewhere on here about Hi-MD producing joint-stereo sound rather than true stereo. Is this the case? Did I get the wrong impression?

I am hesitant to buy because of the above concerns, as well as this being a new "first-generation"-type product that some people in this thread are saying is not quite mature yet. However, I will for the time being, be happy if I know that I'm at least in effect getting a newer, better n707 that happens to have HI-MD's benefits.

Thank you so much for your time and consideration,

Jimmy

[jadeclaw]

Okies, I'll give it a try:

First, SP vs Hi-SP:

Except for a certain example, I found no difference in Quality and I still have yet to encounter any other trip-ups.

So from that point (atleast for my ears) I see no problems.

There was no change in instrument placement and even 60's style ping-pong stereo poses no problems for Hi-SP.

Speaking of joint stereo: I have found no audible indication, that Hi-SP uses any form of joint stereo.

But, the new recorders can produce real SP-discs as well, but not upload them.

Second, LP4 vs Hi-LP:

Both definitely use joint stereo, LP4 uses intensity stereo, killing almost all channel separation, Hi-LP uses something in between, channel separation dies sometimes, when things get crowded - but you don't want to use that for music.

Third, LinearPCM vs? Vs what? And that is the biggest improvement, Hi-MD gives you full CD-quality, something not possible with your old N707. So, any Hi-MD recorder, except the NH600, is a full replacement for your aging N707.

Oh, and of course, welcome to the forum.

[skyther]

Jimmy, I offer my sincere apologies on behalf of the forum and I acknowledge and appreciate that you were only trying to help.

Welcome and please do stay! Should there be any issues troubling you, don't hesitate to PM me... I will indeed ensure that you are well taken care off. :happy:

[aeriyn]

>.>

<.<

Hmm. Reeeeeaaally? :grin:

[skyther]

Alas, my fellow mods do not trust me! >_<

[jimmyjazz]

:smile: Thanks for your responses, jadeclaw and skyther. I feel happier already. (aeryin, not quite sure what that means, so I assume it was an inside joke not directed toward myself. :grin: )

That's a nice plain-terms comparison for me, jadeclaw, and makes me feel more confident in my tentatve plans to buy an nh900. Here are some follow up questions.

1)Can you, or anyone else, tell me a little more about the difference between type-s and type-r? (technical and practical answers welcomed)

2)Is the SP on nh900 going to be better than the SP on my n707? (maybe this will have something to do with #1...dunno)

3)Others, are jadeclaw's findings regarding Hi-SP>SP and joint-stereo>true-stereo consistent with your experiences too?

Thanks again for your kind help and hospitality,

Jimmy

[jadeclaw]

1.) Type-R is the latest Atrac-Version for standard MDs.

Type-S is a playback improvement for tracks recorded in LP2/LP4

This explains, why these tracks sound better when played on a recorder compared to playback on a PC with SonicStage.

2.) Expect atleast the same quality in SP, as, according to the manual, Type-R is included in the new codecs. The N707 has Type-R as well.

3.) Did some more testing, this time with some signals from the Denon Audio Technical CD.

First the Channel Check, left to right, all modes passed with 100% separation, from right to left, LP4 failed with the speech splattering over into the left channel. As soon as something more happens than a single voice on one channel, LP4 always fails. Next, the phase check, all passed except LP4, which failed miserably, giving 50th's telephone sound, when out of phase.

But since you are interested in high quality recording, the crosstalk audible was identical on SP/Hi-SP/PCM and live monitor and close to the limit of my TA-F470, which has already a few years on its back.

Hope this helps.

[jimmyjazz]

Thanks so much for your input, jadeclaw. I just took the dive and placed an order for an nh900. Now I wait.

[Artstar]

CD => ATRAC3plus 256 (direct rip):

Very crisp and full sound. Clear and very nice treble. Ground bass and fullness of the original remains. Airy and 'open' sound; you can actually imagin yourself being in the same room as piano and singer! Very precise reproduction, I like it very much and I'm happy Hi-SP lives up to my expectations (until now). Very hard to tell the difference with the CD original!

ATRAC3plus 256 is a superb codec!

Ripping CD's to ATRAC3plus 256 absolutely gives the best results. Until now, I could not distinguish any difference to the CD original here.

ATRAC3plus 256 is definitely better than MP3 192 kb/s, it revealed all shortcomings of the MP3 sound.

Marco

Dude, you've put my mind at ease. Of course, I'll still compare for myself as well but considering I'll be using my MZ-NH1 for live recordings, I think I'll be very happy and won't experience any artefacts that these castanet guys have been raving on about! :grin:

[Daijoubu]

Spectral analyse are pretty much useless since the point of a loosy codec is to discard inaudible frequencies...

This is why we have ABX listening test

[Seikeden]

hmm I'm not a sound engineer or anything but from what I could see in that first bunch of tests...

-Atrac 3+ 256kb has suspiciously low and noisy looking reproduction from 19500-22k, whereas hi-lp pretty much excludes anything from 18k upwards :/

-the sweep test is completely irrelevant as a sweep sound curve should be almost the most compressable thing ever.

Atrac3 and apparently atrac type-r as well cheat and eliminate most stereo seperation in mid frequencies, but probably only when it can be done without losing *additional* sounds. (extrapolated from data)

I'm gonna look into this some more and see if i can confirm the mid frequency oddities..

As for aural tests I can confirm that v high frequency noises are sometimes muffled if not eliminated entirely by atrac compression and not by mp3.

I have quite a few tracks withs record hiss and its just mysteriously eliminated when converted to atrac good if I had a live recording but bad if it was intentional.

Come to think of it thats probably a feature more than anything since you dont have to piss around with high pass filters afterwards !!! ;P

The other disturbing thing I noticed about ATRAC3 was the first track I stuck on minidisc, at atrac3+ 256k, Angel - Massive Attack, which opens with a very low muffled bass riff, mysteriously obtained a buzzing sound all over the low note, which pissed me off, I couldn't tell the difference at all in 192k mp3.

[Christopher]

Spectral analyse are pretty much useless since the point of a loosy codec is to discard inaudible frequencies...

This is why we have ABX listening test

You can find those here: http://forums.minidisc.org/viewtopic.php?t=5950

[doomlordis]

Seikeden that is interesting , i have angel ripped from cd at 132 atrac3 and the intro is reproduced very well with no buzzing. I am using the nw-hd1 so atrac3 must do better than plus with low frequencies? Did you transcode from mp3?

[Christopher]

I'm going to go ahead and unsticky this topic.