New to MDs, have some questions...

[mrgeen4242]

Hi all - I've been lurking around here for the last few days/week, and I am trying to get somethings straight, and maybe get some buying advice.

I am in the market for a new digital music player, by which I mean an mp3 player. I actually had an iPod for a bit, and liked it ok, but through a sequence of events to long to get into, it's my dad's now... he likes it alot. I picked the iPod because it was an all in one type deal (all my music on the device) which would have been convienient at the time.

Now things have changed and I don't need ALL my music/audio on a single device, and in general I don't prefer it that way. I tend to shy away from hard drive based players, as catastrophic failure killing everything I have is a scaret thought. Plus, counting all my music and audio books I have significantly over 20gigs of data (and growing all the time, very quickly at times - audio book and live show trader ;-), and that starts to get expensive if I want to bring it all with me...

My first look was to Flash memory based players, and there certainly some nice ones out there, but at $90/gig for SD cards, that would get costly REALLY fast. I stumbled onto the Hi-MD by accident really, but it looked like a decent deal, upfront... $7/gig, or $1/300megs is a great price point! Plus, the hardware isn't TERRIBLEY expensive either (at least the low end stuff).

Ok, sorry this is going on so long, I tend to do this. My concern, as most newcomers I am sure, is the lack of native mp3 support. I don't have the keenest ears, to be truthful, and I encode most of my mp3's at 128kbps vbr, which sounds pretty much identical to the source on my decent headphones, to me.

So, 1) Is it possible for someone to take a 128kbps mp3 to transcode it to 256 atrac3+ then do a digital recording of that sample to a wav file and send the mp3 and the wav to me so that I can hear how it comes out? (hope that made sense

1b) Any chance you could do the same with 64kbps atrac3+ as well? ;-)

2) how is the 600d player? It's cheap, and it may be a good way to try the format out for me.

3) Aside from the obvious recording features of the 800, (and the remote - not a huge deal to me) is there any difference in quality between the 800 and the 600d? (I'm VERY interested in getting into live show recording, but I may hold off on that till after I try out the MD world with a cheaper unit).

4) Assuming I were to move my extensive (lets call it 30gigs of mp3s in various bitrates) library over to MDs... a) how long would it take (I have a P4 2.4ghz machine) and would I be able to move the files back to my computer, in faster than realtime and not losing any of the meta-data, should I need to do a restoration of lost files? If so, what format would they be in?

5) I am a Linux user. I kow there isn't any Linux support for the HiMD devices (at this time), but I dual boot win98 for some games, etc, and wouldn't be a big deal for me to boot into windows to fill up a disc or two... However, I wanted to be sure that the software in question works with win98? Also, while we are at it, what is the status of Linux and MD?

6) I would not be adverse to converting all my music to Atrac3+ for local storage as well... I mean covnerting the mp3s I have to Atrac3+ and keeping them on my harddrive (and my MD player) that way, rather than having mp3s and converting them to Atrac when I want to move them to a MD. Is that possible? Can you do a mp3->atrac conversion and have the atrac files end up on your harddrive, and not the MD player? If so, what players are available to play them? Are there any for Linux?

7) I'm not waiting for a new model to come out to buy, when I am ready to buy I will get what I can at my price point. However, it MIGHT be December/January before I pick something. Do you expect new models by then? If so, what features are you looking to have been added to those models?

Sorry this was so long... I know that alot of these questions get asked all the time, but I was a little confused by some of the information, as it was sometimes confliting, or old enough that it MIGHT be out of date. So thanks for any help you could offer, especially in setting up some sort of sound test to help me make sure that I will be able to enjoy my current library. Oh, I live in Michigan, so if someone happens to be nearby and wanted to demo the sound live for me, that would be even cooler ;-)

Rob

[Latexxx]

So, 1) Is it possible for someone to take a 128kbps mp3 to transcode it to 256 atrac3+ then do a digital recording of that sample to a wav file and send the mp3 and the wav to me so that I can hear how it comes out? (hope that made sense

1b) Any chance you could do the same with 64kbps atrac3+ as well? ;-)

You can download Sonic Stage from connect.com and test it yourself.

[mrgeen4242]

You can download Sonic Stage from connect.com and test it yourself.

Well those would be original uncompressed files that are converted to Atrac3, right? I am looking to hear an mp3 which has been converted to Atrac3+, which would be what I would do with an MP player.

Is there a freely available program that I can do that with myself? I was under the impression that the software that comes with a MD player is the only stuff out there to to that?

Thanks for your quick reply,

Rob

[dex Otaku]

To elaborate on what Latexxx said:

Download SonicStage 2.1 and install it. You can then import your own mp3s, convert them to whatever atrac3/atrac3+ format you like, and audition them on your computer - without needing a Sony walkman device to listen with.

[mrgeen4242]

Oh, I'm sorry Latexxx! I thought you were refering to the connect.com music store, as in buying a song and trying from them.

I will do that, thanks for tip! Any insights on the rest of my incredibly long post?

Thanks again

Rob

[mutant1345]

yes and the software is free at www.connect.com so you can download it there pretty quick if you have highspeed internet alothough if you are running dial up i hear it coud be up to ten houres so....watch out if you wanna download it on dial up

as for everything else you asked i think someone with more time should answere them cause i dont have enough to go into detail

but i can do a few short answeres

md is not supported on linux as far as i know as anything more then a storage device for computer data

the 600d model is an okay model but it is still just a downloader, i would suggest it for a test device but dont think of it as the full extent of himd because there is so much more

the various bit rates for the atrac format are somewhat comfusing...when you make a conversion you have another copy of the music file in a smaller file than the origonal mp3...i never tell a difference between a 128 bit mp3 and 64 bit atrac files (i guess my ears are weak) and rarely i can afford a 48 k file hear and there....

as for new models comming out by december or january i highly doubt it but you never know what sony will do i would guess new models around mid june of next year as to give sony enough time to comsult on how himd is doing in the market

and for space on the hi md disc in 256 k atrac is about 7 houres 64 k is around 30-34 or so i believe and 48 is the 45 houre advertised limit

then you can still burn in an sp bitrate lp2 bitrate and lp4 bitrate using atrac3 format on the himd disc those will give you about 15-17 or so houres in sp bitrate and lp2 will give you about 20+ houres or so (im not too sure because i dont use lp2 at all) and lp4 will give about 32 houres (although hi lp is better than lp4 by far) these are not totaly acurate so dont rely on me

and just because you burn in sp lp2 or hilp bitrates on a himd formated disc does not mean it will play in older devices unless an 60-74-80 minute disc is burnt in these bitrates in the regular MD format....

[Davew]

Hi Rob, something to bear in mind in relation to #6 (if you were to keep your music on your hard drive in atrac form)

You mentioned about having an ipod but were afraid of losing the whole lot in a failure. Well, the same thing applies with atrac on your hard disk. Since the music is encrypted and can only play on your machine, if you have a system crash (ok, you're on linux, but it could happen) even if you

managed to get the files from your disk, they are useless if you

have to install SonicStage again becuase your ID has changed.

The way that sony provide to get round this is they have a "backup tool"

so that you can restore your music if you lose your installation.

backing up takes just about the same ammount of disk (or removable

media) space as your original files so you need double the space if you are

going to be safe and take a backup.

Hope this helps

Dave

[mutant1345]

yes the backup tool takes up extra space actualy because it saves the backup tool saves an mp3 version of you music and an oma file to the space you specify so thats a full 1 meg per minute mp3 saved and about half that space in oma version cpmpressed so watch out when you are managing space for the tool

[Davew]

ok, in the SonicStage library, for each track you have registered files,

like 'song.wav', 'song.mp3' and 'song.omg' (for example)

all associated to the same item in the database.

When you backup the library, it takes all of the registered files, even a huge uncompressed wav and stores them where you say.

So if you convert a wav to atrac using SonicStage it is registered to

that track, and if you backup it takes that and copies it.

Your backup can get HUGE.

[mrgeen4242]

Thanks everyone for your fast replies and help! It is almost worth getting a MD Player for the great community!

DaveW - I see what you are saying abotu using the MD as a extra backup of music files, it's definately something to keep in mind. Also, for reference, thee are several things I didn't like about the iPod (and lots that I did, of course), and potential HD failure was only one of them. I don't like having non upgradable or replacable storage media and also batteries.

Speaking of which, do the HiMD players use a AA size battery, or is it some proprietary Sony battery pack? (The Sony site says AA, but there is a lot of references to the battery pack that comes with the players).

I downloaded Sonic Stage... what a piece of junk! I had a lot of trouble getting it not to crash (and when it did, I had to reboot the computer to get it to launch again I remember why I use Linux now :rasp: ) Once I got it going though, it wasn't bad... I think my troubles had to do with having files on a different drive than Sonic Stage was on, I'll have to test that some more later. Anyways, the quality of files converted from 192cbr mp3 to 256 atrac3+ was very good, imo (remember not good hearing), and the 192cbr to 64 atrac3+ was also suprisingly good, but even I could hear the difference there (although they would be easily acceptable for noisey area playback, like in the car). Why is there no 128 or 160 kbps Atrac3+?! Are there any hacks to get that? Conversion speed on my P4 was plenty acceptable. The "LP4" 132kbps Atrac3 was also pretty good, and I couldn't hear much difference, if any.

All in all, it seems pretty reasonable, thus far. I have some quesions on the DRM aspect with Atrac3(+). I look on the rights tab under properties for a music file and it says (for files that I have converted from un-drm'ed MP3s) "Playback Restrictions: None ... Remaining Transfer Count: Unlimited" does this mean that I could copy that song to any number of MD's any number of time I wanted? What would happen if I put that MD into someone elses player? Also, I couldn't take that file, put it on a MD, then copy it from that MD to another computer (other than using a realtime re-recording), correct?

Also, if I were to 'import' my whole library into Sonic Stage, but not 'convert' all the files (just leave them in the original mp3 format on my drive), would I be able to make HiMD discs by plugging in the player, having the files converted on the fly, copied onto the MD disc, and not having the Atrac file left on my HD?

Sorry to be asking so many questions in such long posts,

Rob

[mutant1345]

umm....well, let me try and sort this out

first off i really feel like im the only one in the world of people using SS2.1 that has yet to see it crash or come close to crashing once....

now...the hi-md players all use AA bateries except for the nh1 i believe...

i think sony left out the inbetween bit rates because of the ability to use the old bitrates of 132 105 and 66 but there are some that could still be added, there are no ways that i know of to get any other bitrates...

and as for the drm stuff...you can copy any track any number of times to any player but this didnt happen untill the release of ss2.0 this was not possible,

if you were to put the disc you recorded in himd format into another himd player it would play just as good BUT not if you put the himd format disc in a non himd player I.E. netMD it would not play at all

you can keep yer mp3s in ss and covert them when you put them on the player if you wish but the lower bitrate you transfer in the longer it takes to convert

[jadeclaw]

There is no 128kBit Atrac3plus, because you have Atrac3 with 132kBit and 105kBit - called LP2.

You can put these on a Hi-MD-formatted disc as well, doubling the running time compared to Atrac3Plus@256kBit.

About the DRM:

1. you can transfer a song onto an unlimited number of discs.

2. You can play the discs in every player, that uses the same format. NetMD for old equipment, both & 1GByte for the new ones.

3. Hi-Speed-upload via USB is NOT possible for tracks downloaded from a PC.

Upload is only possible for tracks recorded through Line-In/Optical/Mic-In.

The old way via Line-In of the Soundcard is of course always possible.

On the fly convert is possible, but the converted file is stored for future transfers. You can select the codec/bitrate in the Transfer mode settings. (Transfer Mode button between the two windows.)

If more than one Atrac file is present for a song, SonicStage will always transfer the file with the highest bitrate.

[mrgeen4242]

There is no 128kBit Atrac3plus, because you have Atrac3 with 132kBit and 105kBit - called LP2.

You can put these on a Hi-MD-formatted disc as well, doubling the running time compared to Atrac3Plus@256kBit.

About the DRM:

1. you can transfer a song onto an unlimited number of discs.  

2. You can play the discs in every player, that uses the same format. NetMD for old equipment, both & 1GByte for the new ones.

3. Hi-Speed-upload via USB is NOT possible for tracks downloaded from a PC.

Upload is only possible for tracks recorded through Line-In/Optical/Mic-In.

The old way via Line-In of the Soundcard is of course always possible.

On the fly convert is possible, but the converted file is stored for future transfers. You can select the codec/bitrate in the Transfer mode settings. (Transfer Mode button between the two windows.)

If more than one Atrac file is present for a song, SonicStage will always transfer the file with the highest bitrate.

Ok, that is very usefull information, thank you. I may get a 600D to try this out with, and give it to my wife if I decide to upgrade to a 800 or 900 model . The only real downside I can see is that I would need to have 200-250% more hard drive space for the atrac files .

Is there anyway to tell Sonic Stage to delete all the Atrac files it has created? Or, at the least, what will Sonic Stage do if I clear the directory where all the Atrac files are stored out? Will it recreate them next time I try to copy the file? Or, will it just give me an error?

Also, I just wanted to be sure that if I were to record something with a microphone onto a HiMD recorder using, say, the 256kbps Altrac3+ format, I can move it directly onto my computer, faster than real time, correct? Also, with something like this what are my 'rights' with the resulting file? Lastly, how easy is it to edit that file to make track cuts, etc?

Oh, also, I saw talk about a Atrac to Wave converter coming from Sony? Will that only do files that you recorded personally, or will you be able to do any file for which you have 'unlimited' rights for? Is there any ETA on that utility?

Thanks again!

Rob

[mutant1345]

if you do a recording through the analog source then upload it you can use the software created by marcnet to make it a wav file and no longer concern yourself with any restrictions....marc is making his software better and better everyday...

[jadeclaw]

First, you can remove an album at once from SonicStage but then you have to reimport it again.

Removing the Atrac file alone is possible but only one by one by rightclicking on a track and selecting properties and selecting the File Info tab.

Second, yes you can record standalone and then transfer via USB faster than realtime.

You can then edit the file in SonicStage. (Combine/Divide with rehearsal).

After that, you can download back onto an unlimited number of discs. No export is possible and that is, where the converter comes into play. Sony promised one but there is no ETA known and Sony stays quite silent about it. Marcnets software is maturing and should be an alternative.

One warning, the US-version of the NH600 has NO inputs except USB. The european version has Line-In...

[Leland]

To keep the backups more reasonable in size, you can move the non-atrac files (mp3, wav) to a different location after you import them. SS then can't find them, but the consequences are not problematic.

If I was you, I would get the 800 model to try out. It is only 50 bucks more than the 600. If you buy from a retailer with a decent return policy, you can always take it back within 30 days. I did this to audition a 600. Decided it was not worth having without the record capabilities.

[Davew]

Batteries:

The 900 has a gumpack but also a battery case

so you *can* use an AA battery.

The 800 uses a bog standard AA battery only. that is the definitive answer because I have one.

700: AA battery

600D: AA battery

It says: "Rechargeable NiMH AA formfactor battery (NH-7WMAA)" for the 800, 700 and 600D but that is just the name of the AA supplied.

Dave

[vova]

3. Hi-Speed-upload via USB is NOT possible for tracks downloaded from a PC.

you can upload tracks via usb, but ONLY back to the PC they originally came from

[mrgeen4242]

you can upload tracks via usb, but ONLY back to the PC they originally came from

O, I didn't realize that! Very interesting, though not sure how usefull. ;-)

Ok, I am almost there on buying a HiMD player, but I am wondering how people like the interface? It seems like there isn't any playlist support? Is it easy to find what you are looking for out of a gig of music?

I really want to thank everyone who has taken the time to answer all my questions, it's made the HiMD an serious contender for my money, where it wouldn't have ever been option before. Sony should send you all a check!

Oh, I also was wondering if you have to use SonicStage to transfer music, or can you drag ATRAC3 files to the player via explorer and play them? I'm assuming no, but I have to ask .

So, anyone see any good deals on a NHF-800 anywhere? ;-)

[A440]

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/.../SONY-MZ-NHF800

$259, free shipping, no tax (except maybe in NJ) and a free microphone

[Kaotic]

So, anyone see any good deals on a NHF-800 anywhere? ;-)

follow the link under the 'PRICE' column, in here

[mrgeen4242]

Thanks for the price tips. (Amazon lists it for $220 free shipping, incidentally)... any opinions on my other questions?

[Davew]

you can't drag and drop atrac files onto the 800 from the explorer,

you have to use SonicStage. :whatever: Same for uploading, which

you have to very careful about cos you can very easily manage

to upload and it sometimes wipes them off the MD and then you find

that it hasn't actually uploaded them at all! So watch out!

Navigation on the 800 is good (well, I find it good) you can browse

your tracks by group (which are like top level folders),

by artist, by album and by bookmark (you can bookmark your

favorite tracks on a disc, then only play them. Plus if you have disc

memory turned on, the player will remember your bookmarks for that

disc!)

The play modes on the 800 are split into two parts:

Main Play mode:

You select Group, Artist, Album, Bookmark or Normal. Then it

only plays tracks from that category (you select the artist etc)

(You can set main mode from the menu on the Remote,

or by pressing the Navi/Menu button on the recorder)

Sub Play mode:

This affects in what order the tracks you selected in main are played.

For these modes you can turn repeat on or off as well: Normal,

One Track only and Shuffle.

There is also 'A-B Repeat' which lets you select a start point and

and end point within a track and plays that bit over and over. :cool:

Hope this helps

Dave

[mrgeen4242]

you can't drag and drop atrac files onto the 800 from the explorer,

you have to use SonicStage. :whatever:

That's what I figured, but maan is that stupid =p You can't even drag an drop a DRMed file onto it

Navigation on the 800 is good (well, I find it good) you can browse

your tracks by group (which are like top level folders),

by artist, by album and by bookmark (you can bookmark your

favorite tracks on a disc, then only play them. Plus if you have disc

memory turned on, the player will remember your bookmarks for that disc!)

How do you put something into a 'group'? Is it done only through sonic stage, or can it be done on the player? Can a song have more than one group? How many tracks will it let you bookmark?

Hope this helps

Dave

Yup very helpful! I am really looking hard at getiing an nhf800, but not sure if I can justify the extra $100 or so over getting a super discounted 600D... I have never recorded anything in the past, so it's hard to say if I would start using the recorder features or not...

Ah well, thanks again,

Rob

[KJ_Palmer]

How do you put something into a 'group'? Is it done only through sonic stage, or can it be done on the player? Can a song have more than one group? How many tracks will it let you bookmark?

You can put tracks into groups either using SonicStage (or MD Simple Burner), or on the MD recorder itself via the menus. Each track can only go into one group, though. It's rather like a folder in Windows (but only has one 'level' to it). You create a new group, name it and 'drag and drop' the tracks you want into it, or you can record tracks directly into a new group....

I think you can bookmark all the tracks on a disc, it doesn't seem to say explicitly in the NH900 manual...

[Davew]

The only things that the 800 do not have are:

Program play mode (though you can use bookmarks as a

sort of program mode, and it remembers it becase of disc memory)

Line out, you only have headphone out.

speaking of headphones, if you were to get the UK version (I don't

know if this is the same for all versions) get some better headphones

if you ever want to use the player without a remote. The headphones

supplied have a cable that is about 20cm long (I'm not joking), plus

they hurt your ears after a while!

I am very pleased with my 800 despite these things :grin:

Always happy to help, Dave

[jadeclaw]

The only things that the 800 do not have are:

Line out, you only have headphone out.

Actually, you have Line-Out, except for the lower level compared to a home deck.

Set Sound to normal and Volume to 27/30 and you have a linear frequency response and no sound effects.

That's how my NH700 (NHF800 without radio) works nicely on my home stereo.

[Davew]

cheers jadeclaw, I didn't know that.

That will come in handy if I'm connecting

to speakers etc.

hmm 27 will remember that :smile:

thanks again, Dave