2004 US Presidental Election.

[Christopher]

Who's been into it? Who doesn't care? I'm really enjoying the debates, and it's funny to watch Bush struggling to define himself in his whimsical term.

I'm definitely voting for Kerry.

People who live outside of the US, how do you feel about Bush? What do you know about Kerry?

[Syrius]

Well, I am surprised to see a mod start this kind of flammable thread. :laugh:

Being a foreigner, I don't have much of a say. I just hope that people do go out and vote, forgetting about those excuses most folks give out for a change. Don't let apathy be the winner, or we may have another of those dimpled-chad fiascos again. Regardless if you like the current administration, or want a change, please go out and vote. Do it for your right to enjoy MD. :rasp:

Just my two cents, and thanks for listening.

[skmetal07]

yeah im keping an eye on it, since this is the definition of my government class, i have no choice. crap thats right i have to wright a paper on this.

i guess if i could vote, i'd vote for Bush, being a rep and all, im a little confused on Kerry's view on the war, and all other issues being pushed aside because of it doesn't help. Even though Bush jumped the gun and went to war without a plan, i feel it was the right thing to do, get Saddam Hussein OUT OF POWER, and find any wmds (no not white minidiscs).

what does everyone else think?

[Christopher]

Syrius: Being a foreigner? How long have you lived in the US?

[Syrius]

About six years now.

[Tiesto]

Even though Bush jumped the gun and went to war without a plan, i feel it was the right thing to do...

:wacky: :wacky: :wacky: :wacky: :wacky: :wacky: :wacky:

[dex Otaku]

what does everyone else think?

I think that after Bush's first term, featuring environmental policy heading downhill, women's rights being tossed out the window left and right, people's freedom in general being trodden on, recommencement of military buildup, a completely assinine war with no justification or legitimacy whatsoever, and the fact that Bush is a frikking bonehead.. that basically all Americans need to do their best to show up and vote the idiot out of power.

When it comes to US politics (I'm Canadian) there's a prevailing thought in my head which has been there for most of my life, especially in response to things like pre-election public opinion surveys showing Bush in the lead:

Are the Americans really that outright [expletive deleted] stupid?

Good luck on your paper. Hopefully in the process of writing it, you'll come to your senses.

[aeriyn]

Obviously, I'm going to vote for Kerry.

I agree with every single point dex brought up; they are points I've cited many, many times. Other points I'd like to bring up; Bush claims to be a Republican, which is supposedly having US economic and business interests at the forefront... but everything he's done has done nothing but injure the economy.

He outsourced thousands upon thousands of jobs. This damages our economy while strengthening the economies of the countries we outsourced to. One day, those workers in India and South Korea will want more money, and the companies that outsourced will be in a tight spot.

He cut off the tariffs on steel early. It practically put US Steel out of business with all the cheap Dutch and Japanese steel flooding into the US.

He is the first president in 70 years to actually lose jobs rather than create them. And he didn't lose only one job. He caused us to lose almost two million.

More than economics, I have a very intense personal dislike for the man. For one, I am gay. His little crusade to make gay marriage illegal would have precluded any chance I ever had to walk down the aisle one day (if I ever choose to :laugh: ) with another girl. His constant pandering to the religious right has pretty much infuriated anyone who is not Southern Baptist or some other fundamentalist Christian sect.

He loses his temper, he gets mad for no reason. He led an absurd and completely unjustified war against a country that had done nothing at all. Once we finished the war, we occupy Iraq and tell them their system of government sucks, and now they have to be a democracy. Idiocy. Democracy is the most difficult form of government to manage. The Iraqi populace has no experience with democracy. They don't know how to be democratic! The Middle East is a hotbed of violence; it always has been, since the days of the Sumerians and Mesopotamians to Alexander the Great to Saddam Hussein. It always will be. Nothing we do can possibly stop it. It's gone on for so long, war is all these people know. Just like the Israelis and the Palestinians. Just like the Protestants and Catholics in Ireland.

The "war against terror" is another lunacy contrived by Dubya. It's the most infantile ideal I've ever heard of. There is no way in the nine hells that we can win a war against all terrorists. It's just childish. No, not even a child would be dumb enough to think that this is a winnable war. For every terrorist we kill, a hundred more are recruited. It is a war with no victor; a war without end. If we don't just give up, we'll still be fighting the "war on terror" fifty years from now, a hundred, a thousand.

But I digress...

There will always be evil. Evil is necessary. Without evil, there would be no good. There would be no progress, no moving forward. There would be no heroes. There would be no villains. There would be none of the conflict that pushes humanity forward toward a higher state of being. The balance between these two forces may tip and sway, but it will always balance itself out in the end. Evil can never be truly destroyed, just as much as good will never truly be extinguished.

Now if only people could realize this most self-evident of truths... it is rather ignorant and naive to believe that evil is a disease that must be expunged or Armageddon will come. In fact, evil is much like the night... without night, the world would suffer under and endless light. Without evil, the world would stagnate and cease to move forward. Conflict would not exist. Progress would end. We would be content and warm in our stagnation, our inflexibility and intolerance.

But of course, very few people think of good and evil in this fashion. Perhaps it is for the better if both those of a good weal and those of an evil weal do not know that the only reason they fight against each other is to maintain an intangible balance of ideologies whose only purpose is to keep our race from either fading into oblivion or destroying ourselves with excess and gluttony for power.

As I look back, I realize that it is the intent that determines good or evil, not the actions. Saddam is an evil man, for he has the intent, the purpose, to commit evil acts for the sake of personal gain at the expense of others. But Bush's actions, which subsequently led to the capture of Saddam, an evil man, do not make Bush a good man. He did not intend to capture Saddam for altrustic reasons, but rather for personal gain, i.e. revenge for attempting to murder his father, or to obtain oil, or to add forward military bases to strategic locations in the Middle East... at the expense of others, namely the soldiers who were sent to their deaths, both American and Iraqi.

This also makes Bush an evil man.

I cannot in good conscience promote the ideal of an evil man running my country. I will vote for John Kerry, even though I do not think he is a good man. I do know, however, that Kerry is not an evil man. He may not be actively altruistic, but he is not actively malevolent.

Wow. Long blurb. Philosophy plays a big part in politics, a part not many people actually notice.

Let the flames roll in. :laugh: (Just kidding.)

[Davew]

I cannot match the length of your post! "war on terror" this always annoys me. It is not good enough for our governments to go into afghanistan and iraq in the name of fighting terror whilst claiming the moral highground.

we are no better than them, they kill, we kill back, they kill more, we kill back more.

when are we going to wake up and ask ourselves the question: *why* do these "terrorists" feel the need to attack our countries and kill our citizens in the first place. Prevention is the best cure, we need to clean up our act and stop abusing and leeching off the rest of the world.

our governments and societys in the "west" need to be much less selfish, and stop being hypocrites, stop ruining the planet, and stop taking advantage of so many people around the globe.

So, when I hear the monkey in the house that is white stating that "see, these guys [terrorists] they hate freedom" I always want to punch that smirking face from here to god knows where.

Sorry guys, I just feel strongly about this!

Dave

[Christopher]

About six years now.

You lived through Bush's entire term and even saw the dot-com bubble burst. Your opinion is extremely relevant..

---------

I think Iraq was necessary, but we did not do it appropriately. Why do I justify the assault and rebuilding of Iraq? Because of stories like this. I cannot imagine the hardships that people faced in that country for the last few decades. Unfortunately, we supplied Iraq/Saddam the power to do this [weapons, etc] back in the '80's.

If Kerry had led the Iraq invasion [which we probably wouldn't have done so steadfast], there would be a much different result in the outcome of the war. We should've finished what we started in Afghanistan instead of trying to multitask. Bush says we didn't alter our resources [from Afghanistan] for Iraq. That's bullshit, it's all bullshit and will be a sad reminder of a failed administration years from now. I feel immense respect and sorrow for the people who have fallen for us in these confrontations.

--------

What I'm worried about is North Korea, however. How do you folk feel about that? Let's digress into other-than-Iraq discussion, as that horse has been beaten to death, so to speak.

There's many other fallacies that I can go into, but I'll save them for future replies.

Nonetheless, I'm going to add a poll to this thread and you can cast your own vote - Bush or Kerry. Nader doesn't count. :rasp:

[yamagatacamille]

i hope that both candidates dont use the war in iraq as their only motive (im sure bush uses it as a primary topic of debate). there are other topics of discussion needed to be talked about as well (ie see previous posts) if i were an american citizen, which im not, i'd vote kerry (he's anti-war, unless he flip-flopped again:(). they need another democrat running the US. sorry if it's not that much of an input compared to the 2 previous posters, but honestly the presidential debates the past month were quite entertaining. bush and kerry duking it out! heh. i kept saying it before and i'll say it again. the state of florida or ralph nader will decide who wins (maybe both)

[mutant1345]

i agree with chris in that bush was very unorginized with the war on irag, and afghanistan

i was ready to fight whoever was resonsible for september eleveth right after the bombing

i wanted to go and fight myself but wasnt quite 18 yet.........

im not really up for either of the candidates really but its a factor of the lesser of two evils, in a way, i dont care for bush and dont believe he will be re-elected and kerry has his share of downfalls too but no wheres neer what bush has put on himself

i watch the news every morning and for the past year and a half the very first thing i hear is...."another bombing in irag" or "another soldier died today in iraq"

and im getting sick of this, if we did things right our troops wouldnt be in such danger and we would be done there and let irag and afghanistan stand on there own two feet without us fighting them....

and sloweley back away from the mid east wars

but bush is making america seem like the bad guys of the whole thing so im voting kerry aswell.......

[jadeclaw]

The War on Terror: America will not win it. Why? Because the foreign policy of the current and past administrations is THE reason for the terror attacks. The constant meddling in the internal affairs of other countries, the multiple democracies, that had been destroyed, the dictators, that had been supported to protect Corporate America's interests. And then every US president is surprised time after time, when something bad happens. And now take this joke named George W Bush. Dumber than a loaf of bread with an attention span of a two year old.

No wonder, that the whole Iraq operation failed that miserably. He is even unable to say more than two sentences without someone telling him, what to say. See here:

http://cryptome.org/bush-bulge.htm

And that miserable failure should be responsible for the care and wellbeing of 270 million people?

Please not...

[aeriyn]

I think Iraq was necessary, but we did not do it appropriately. Why do I justify the assault and rebuilding of Iraq? Because of stories like this. I cannot imagine the hardships that people faced in that country for the last few decades.

Iraq aside, what right does the US possess that gives us the almighty power to tell other countries what to do and when to do it?

We have no such right. Might does not make right; just because we can force other countries to act how we want them to, does not mean we should.For the better part of the last century, America has acted like the rulers of the Earth. Which we, of course, are not.

Despite the fact that Saddam was terrorizing his own people and subjugating them into the ground... what right do we have to barge in there and turn the place into the United States of Iraq?

Just something to think about. If we'd keep our nose out of everyone else's business and try to address the situations we have in our own backyard (as Germany, France and Japan have done already) we wouldn't have a trashed economy and division at the highest levels.

We really would be the most powerful nation in the world. At the moment, we're only masquerading as the most powerful nation in the world, while in reality our government has served our country up on a silver platter for the economies of China, Japan and the Middle East.

Not badmouthing Japan for taking advantage of our idiocy, either. They follow a different set of rules than we do, and we should not make them play by our rules. They would refuse, and have refused. Their way works better. Why should they change? It is the responsibility of the weaker partner to change, and the US is indisputably the weaker partner when it comes to nichibei--the Japanese-American economic relationship.

The US is a child. It needs to grow up.

"If you don't want Japan to buy it, don't sell it."

--Morita Akio

[glauber]

I accidentally voted for Buchanan. Can i fix it?

[Christopher]

Iraq aside, what right does the US possess that gives us the almighty power to tell other countries what to do and when to do it?

I don't disagree with this, but I do wonder, what would you do if you were in his shoes in this situation? Would you never step into Iraq at all?

I accidentally voted for Buchanan. Can i fix it?

:grin: :grin:

[falcon_liz]

i dont see how anyone can vote for kerry. i have noticed that many people don't support kerry, they just don't want bush. who knows, if those who don't want bush vote for kerry, they might just end up with "4 more years of hell"- Teresa Heinz Kerry.

the funny thing is that i too am a practicing Catholic, and as such i was taught to push my religious views no matter what people think. isn't that y jesus died? i don't kno what catholic school kerry went to if he thinks that not pushing ur beliefs means u're a practicing catholic. along with that, when it comes to an abortion, if you are kill an innocent life, aren't u as bad as those terrorist that go around and kill innocent people everyday? and the right to kill a baby is not a constitutional right. and it is against the ten commandments, that kerry supports, unless he doesn't agree with that aspect of the church either.

if i could vote this year, my vote would go to bush, and im gonna make sure that i push others to push for bush, because as a practicing catholic it is my duty to express my moral beliefs even if others don't give a damn.

[skmetal07]

i agree with u, of course, i will not change my mind, and yes i have come to my senses (dex) Bush seems to be the real alternative. yeah so we went to war,we needed to, would u let Hussein continue to test his bio weapons on his people, all thoes innocent women and children, and then someday let him use his wmds against us? i don't think u would, what's kerry gonna do, decide between if he supports the patriot act or not, even though he voted for it? and how could u vote for a president who supports abortion?

4 MORE YEARS!!!!

[falcon_liz]

i honestly think that kerry wants what's best for our country but has no clue how to do it. he did mention in the debate that he was gonna lessen the strain on our armed forces by creating two new divisions and double the number of special forces.

i want to kno how he plans on doing this, when u are scrownging for people to sign up for the military as it is! and he wants to add two more divisions? :wacky:

[aeriyn]

Religion... religion should play no part in politics. I'm going to disregard every point you made because it was biased from a religious, and thus tainted, perspective.

I do not have a problem with religious people, as long as they keep it to themselves and don't try converting me. If you think that you have to push your religion on me to be a good practicing member, you're dead wrong and if you ever prosetlyze to me in person, I'll kick your ass. :whatever:

Religion has mostly told me how worthless and sinful I am, as a gay person, as someone who looks for explanations to life's questions within my own heart and within nature. I get tired of religious assholes telling me how I'm going to suffer painfully and burn in hell just for being who I am.

I'm not going to say what I really want to because I'm a mod and I'm supposed to set some sort of example of maturity here. :sleep:

Regarding Bush, he is the antithesis of everything I stand for. I don't know how well of a job Kerry will do; he's never been President before. But I can't imagine a four-year-old doing a worse job of commander in chief than Dubya.

And about pro-life, my brother's studying to become a genetic engineer. He wants to work with stem cells; work on trying to cure alzheimer's and parkinson's and maybe one day every disease and malady we can think of. Any effort that blocks stem cell research pisses him off, and by extension pisses me off. As a girl, I would hate to think it could one day be illegal for me to have an abortion if I was ever raped and impregnated. I would be stuck with this eternal reminder of that evil time; you can bet millions of women who are rape victims and did have the result of said rape aborted do not have to feel this way.

I honestly regret that people cling to these religion-supported hatreds as if they are holy and revered. If I could, I'd try to help them understand that these hatreds don't fit in with their widely heralded efforts to love thy neighbor.

I think, in the religious right, "love thy neighbor" really means "love thy neighbor... as long as she's not homosexual, a heretic or not God-fearing." The hypocrisy just simply astounds me.

(I feel strongly about this, mostly from the countless altercations I found myself in, usually against religious-type people. If you don't like it, tough shit. You shouldn't actively support a group that wants nothing more than to hang me from the nearest tree.)

[aeriyn]

would u let Hussein continue to test his bio weapons on his people, all thoes innocent women and children, and then someday let him use his wmds against us?

What weapons of mass destruction? :laugh:

Last I heard, there weren't any in Iraq, and there hasn't been any since 1992. Colin Powell admitted it publicly, as well as apologizing to the entire nation and world for his rhetoric which certainly aided in the decision to go to war.

[Christopher]

No response to my question, Cor? I wasn't being a jackass. :sleep:

[aeriyn]

Sorry, Chris. :sleep:

I got distracted by the religious stuff. :whatever: Like I said, no problem with religious people, but the ones who think they have to constantly prosetlyze to be good members of their faith... just really piss me off.

Anyhow, if I was in the President's place, I would not have gone to war with Iraq. Two points here. One, the common reason he went to war as defined by liberals is oil. But, since we've gone to war, gas prices have skyrocketed.

Two, there were no chemical/biological weapons there. There hasn't been any since 1992. The primary reason for going to war as cited by the Bush administration is patently false.

"Regime change" is the most absurd bullshit I've ever heard. Oh, the US doesn't like how this country is run so we go kill all the government officials and put one we like in. Come on. It's not our responsibility. It's not our duty. By what divine right do we have to come into a sovereign nation and tell them, "change your regime or die!" We are humans. They are humans. Just because we have more guns does not make us their masters. Might does not make for right.

The United States is not the rulers of the world. Period. Yet our administration has for the last eighty years, pretended we were. As Jadeclaw said, the reason we even have terrorist groups squaring off against us is because of our propensity for sticking our nose in other countries' business.

And as for the people of Iraq, I'm honestly sick of hearing about them. I'm sick of hearing about US soldiers dying every day for those people who don't even want us over there. They want us to go away; otherwise they wouldn't be attacking us! There are innocent people in Iraq yes, but it is not our responsibility, nor is it our right, to protect them. That falls to the Iraqi people themselves. By not allowing them to fulfill their own responsibilities, we are essentially calling them incompetent.

We need a president who will worry about America and not the World. Kerry is not that president, but he's a hell of a lot closer than Bush.

Edit: It's remarkable the difference in posts between Bush supporters and Kerry supporters, not just in this forum but in others as well. Kerry supporters tend to be long-winded, well-spoken and have all their facts straight, while Bush supporters get to the point, but the point isn't always true, and they are rather unclear and erroneous in their rhetoric. I guess Bush and Kerry supporters are just like the people we support. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Christopher]

I understand why you wouldn't do what he did/etc, but what would you do?

[jadeclaw]

Fact is, the Iraq war was completely unnecessary.

The UN was mere months away from turning Saddam Hussein into a little lapdog.

From that point forward, introducing democratic reforms could have been much easier, as the lives of the ordinary people continued uninterrupted.

And the most important thing: The destabilizing effect of a war could have been avoided.

Now Iraq is a safe haven for terrorists of all sorts, under Saddam's rule, foreign terrorists had no chance of surviving...

Another thing: On friday, the second public tv network (ZDF) had their bi-weekly nationwide poll on politics. The last question was, if Germans could vote on the next US-president, which one would you vote for?

The result: 9% for Bush, 80% for Kerry. "weiß nicht" means undecided/no opinion.

About the Poll: Representative telephone poll with 1284 participants.

[jadeclaw]

Another reason NOT to vote for Bush:

http://forum.darwinawards.com/index.php?showtopic=5914

Obviously, Republicans don't like criticism.

[aeriyn]

I understand why you wouldn't do what he did/etc, but what would you do?

I would have done nothing.

It's not our place to meddle in the politics of other countries. If they attack us first I can see the merit in a retaliatory strike; I agree with what we did in Afghanistan. But by pursuing Iraq, which was not a threat, and handing over the task of finding bin Laden to the Afghan warlords, we allowed our target to slip away undetected and unhindered.

The reason we went to war was this: Iraq has biological/chemical weapons. Simple enough. But wait, they didn't have said weapons. And Colin Powell pretty much admitted that the Bush administration knew there were no WMDs in Iraq and hadn't been for 12 years.

I distinctly remember after about two weeks into the war, everyone stopped talking about WMDs and started talking about "regime change." It's like the Bush administration just forgot all about the very reason we attacked in the first place and started pushing out a bunch of bullshit, hoping the American citizenry would be too stupid or ignorant to notice.

America sees itself as the white knight who champions the cause of freedom. But our idea of freedom may be fundamentally different than that of other countries. In their eyes, we aren't Sir Galahad.

We're the Black Knight.

[Bananatree]

Kerry voted for the Patriot Act, but didn't almost everyone else pass it as well?

I personally cannot vote as I am Canadian, but I really don't think that Bush is the right choice for 04.

I like this reason

I personally saw a blog by someone on the net the other day, they were talking about how they really wanted Bush to win the election, because she couldn't afford a new CD. She really thought that tax cuts would give her enough money to buy that CD.

Are some people really that selfish? Now I'm not 100% sure if this person was being serious or not, but I can't imagine meeting a real person that would rather watch his/her country dive into debt than give some money back to the governemtn and help the economy get out of a hole.

Every time I see money taken off my pay check, I smile. Eventhough I know I'll never see some of that money ever again (though I am supposed to) I'm glad that some of the money I'm making is going towards people who need it.

Call me a Left-wing socialist, but I don't love money enough to support shafting the poor in order to motivate them to get jobs.

[Hyena]

The reason we went to war was this: Iraq has biological/chemical weapons. Simple enough. But wait, they didn't have said weapons. And Colin Powell pretty much admitted that the Bush administration knew there were no WMDs in Iraq and hadn't been for 12 years.

I distinctly remember after about two weeks into the war, everyone stopped talking about WMDs and started talking about "regime change." It's like the Bush administration just forgot all about the very reason we attacked in the first place and started pushing out a bunch of bullshit, hoping the American citizenry would be too stupid or ignorant to notice.

THANK YOU. This is my biggest reason NOT to vote for Bush. It's amazing that people really have forgotten what was the orignal reason.

WMD? Oh well... it seems we made a mistake

Ties to Al qaeda? Whoops, our bad.

But hey, at least Saddam is no longer in power, right?

[Christopher]

Powerful. Al-Zarqawi group claims allegiance to bin Laden.

[aeriyn]

Powerful. Al-Zarqawi group claims allegiance to bin Laden.

Interesting, and not wholly unexpected.

Al-Zarqawi is Jordanian, not Iraqi. He's only in Iraq to organize resistance and for the chance to kill US soldiers.

So much for the Iraq/al-Qaida link.

[Christopher]

Well, the main reason I linked it is because we've created a meeting place for terrorists to network with each other and build alliances. Previously, Al-Zarqawi and bin Laden + co. were always at arms length; never supported each other, never spoke to each other and never liked each other. Now, Al-Zarqawi, with $25 million price on his head and his organization, is seeking whomever and whatever he can find to support him before he's annihilated by the "coalition".

So mch for the link? It's still another piece of ammunition that will be fruitless in taking Bush down [unfortunately]. Like it or not, Bush will probably be in office again. You know this to be true.

[falcon_liz]

Okay, let's start from the top, it's been a while.

first of all, i have nothing against homosexuals, they should be treated the same, and it sucks the ridicule that they get, it does because most of them are nice people. but when it comes to marriage, there should be a line that is drawn. when it comes to rights and property and wills, there are legal ways of handeling that without having to be married.

i am religious and there is no doubt about it. no one is forcing religion on others, but it is out of respect for your relgion to practice your beliefs, and have them define yourself, and you should base your decisions off of what you believe, and what is best for the country. if the two clash, it's the person in power's decision to decide that, but i think if kerry claims himself as a practicing catholic, his record doesn't support that, and that's not how its supposed to be. in the terms of love thy neighbor, what happened to love thy enemies? i don't deny that there are some that strongly go against it, but god created individuals and each with own personalities. how we act is our own business. not everyone wants to hang you from a tree and call you a witch, that's a stereotype and if you think that most of the world is out to get you, remember that it's not centered around you. because by saying that you're acting like my 5 year old sister.

as for the war. i would have gone into Iraq. not the way bush did, and maybe not the reason he did either. but solely on the basis that Hussien, and his sons, killed hundreds of his own people, just for fun. or for stupid reasons. he was a cruel dictator, and if we were in that situation, would you want someone come in and stop him from doing this? you would have no way of knowing who would be killed next and have the constant fear that it might be you. plus those who resist us in Iraq, are those that probably agreed with Saddam, and got paid to do some of his dirty work too. it's almost like Hilter and the Jews.

for abortion, some cases maybe depending on the severity can be justified. there are councelors, and many people are able, through therapy, to live with the fact that they were raped, and give the baby up for adoption on the day it's born. granted a small few, but it is an option. many women and men want children, and will love those children, reguardless of rape, or incest. they have the chance to show love to a baby they were denied. If i were raped, i would be emotionally damaged, but the baby would be half of me, and i don't think i'd be able to kill something that has the ability to be anything like me. if raised by parents that will love it no matter what.

the price of gas has to do with the gas companies themselves. They create an aritficil shortage when they convert over to the reformulative. they make money! that's how we are... money money money. and when there is lack of it, we bitch! it's not iraq. and if china wasn't using most if it, no one would be complaining. we're not the main consumer anymore... china has cars too, and twice the population, or close to it.

you say that we should mind our own business, we did, and 4 planes went down killing millions of lives because of it. for 80 years. so it's not just bush's fault. mind you, there were 6 republicans and 5 liberals in about that time frame. so to blame most of this on bush is crazy. he did what he thought was best for the country. i kno my cousin and his friends are in Iraq, and they have it hard, but they see how they are helping, and they are proud to serve their country. my cousin is a democrat. but if he could vote, he'd vote bush just because of kerry not knowing what he would do in iraq. and waiting for countries that were in iraq and helping Saddam would just waste time. he had 14 sanctions. how many did he ignore. when it came time to act, those who wanted him out, did nothing.

i respect your views on this war, but your reasoning has to be worked on, because your problems are one in a million, so i ask you to tell him, just how kerry plans on fixing the problem in iraq, dealing with homosexual marriage without pissing off 25 states, dealing with the "oil issue", national dificit, without raising my taxes, and paying for all his promises. we had a surplus because nothing was really done during the 8 years before bush, and you have proof that can factually prove me wrong, please do tell, because i think that kerry is just gonna be another clinton, minus the affairs in the oval office :wacky:

[aeriyn]

Do you really want to explain to me why I can't get married to the person I love? This pretty, sweet girl crying her eyes out because she doesn't understand why the government has to be such heartless bastards that they won't let her express her love and comittment to the girl she fell for? Do you want to be the person who explains how wrong what she wants is, how her mere existence is an abomination and God wishes her to be stricken dead?

Chew on that for a while.

Four planes went down killing millions? The count I saw was 3,405 dead in 9/11. Millions? Surely not.

Because we were attacked by al-Qaida, yes, we do have a responsibility to retaliate; and we did. I totally agree with invading Afghanistan and hunting down al-Qaida. In fact, that is what I believe our main focus should be. When Dubya ignored his own advisors and decided to push for a war against Iraq (at the same time pissing off the UN and all of our allies), I was flabbergasted.

But no. We invaded Iraq. We annoyed our allies; fuck, we basically insulted Germany, France and Japan on national TV for refusing to help with the war initially.

OF COURSE THEY COULDN'T HELP! WE MADE THEM SIGN A TREATY TO THAT EFFECT.

At the end of WWII, all of the Axis nations had to sign a treaty; they can't have offensive military forces. And here goes Dumb Dubya, first asking them to help, then ridiculing them publicly because they declined. Because they were constrained from accepting. Bush, of course, left this little fact out.

Ugh. I really don't care to argue about politics anymore.

The reality is this.

Bush or Kerry. The choice really doesn't matter much to normal people. They're both only becoming president to fill their pockets with money. They don't care about the American people. They care only about money and power.

[falcon_liz]

okay, only half the sates don't ant gay marriage to be legal. in those states there are legal options for gay marrigaes. so can still get married in the states that allow it. but states if they want can choose not to except your marriage.

as for 9/11 so i over estimated, it was just thrown out there, what's important is that lives were lost when we should have made sure that we were safe. and Bin Laden was the main threat. he was the main threat because no one gave a damn. When you fight a war against terror, you go after those that are killing thousands of lives. Bin Laden killed many in 9/11, but Saddam killed thousands daily. We limited Bin Laden, and cut off many of his connections. So we went after those we believed would be involved in communication with Bin Laden. Saddam had many people working for him, that we didn't kno, so at the time we went in, i was a possible threat.

another reason, like a said before, was Saddam was ignoring UN sanctions. if you ignore those sanctions, how are we to kno that something isn't going on? kill it before it happens.

i really don't want to sit around and wait for something or someone to attack us again. and i think Bush is doing one hell of a job to prevent that. :smile:

[dex Otaku]

I'm back at that point where I wonder.. I seriously wonder.. I mean.. it pretty much makes me ill to think that so many Americans are this naive, gullible, and outright stupid.

Saddam killed thousands daily, indeed.

i really don't want to sit around and wait for something or someone to attack us again. and i think Bush is doing one hell of a job to prevent that.

Um. Yeah. Please - did you miss the part where Bush's [and the military's] delays, and sending troops to Iraq instead, meant that Bin Laden got away scott-free?

And yes - Bush is doing a fantastic job making sure no one attacks the US again. After all, Iraq attacked the US so many times that.. oh, wait. Iraq never attacked the US. In fact, Iraq never attacked anyone.

WAKE UP.

[Hyena]

 In fact, Iraq never attacked anyone.

Didn't Iraq invade Syria in the 90's? Or are you referring to the here and now?

On the subject of gay marriage... IMO marriage is defined as the coupling of a man and a woman, so I don't think there should be marriages for gays per se, however a civil union between same sexes that grant them all the same rights and privledges as married couples would be nice. I'd be content with that. :happy:

[dex Otaku]

I'm speaking of the here and now.

And as for the marriage question, it is purely a semantic one. Which makes all arguments based on "definition" completely specious.

[Bananatree]

you say that we should mind our own business, we did, and 4 planes went down killing millions of lives because of it.  for 80 years.   so it's not just bush's fault.  mind you, there were 6 republicans and 5 liberals in about that time frame. so to blame most of this on bush is crazy.  he did what he thought was best for the country.  i kno my cousin and his friends are in Iraq, and they have it hard, but they see how they are helping, and they are proud to serve their country.  my cousin is a democrat.  but if he could vote, he'd vote bush just because of kerry not knowing what he would do in iraq.  and waiting for countries that were in iraq and helping Saddam would just waste time.  he had 14 sanctions. how many did he ignore.  when it came time to act, those who wanted him out, did nothing.

I did not even hear that.

You really should look into some history courses. The Americans have been swinging the iron ball of Democracy for some time now. The US did not "mind it's bussiness" by any definition of the term. Let's make a list shall we?

(In no order)

Manifest Destiny

Vietnam

Chilean coup of September 11th 1973

Invasion of Panama

Bay of Pigs

La Invasion (The Invasion of Panama) [backed by 'Bert Dubya BTW]

Most of this was shown in the film "Bowling for Columbine", although I doubt many war supporters saw it, as every war supporter I've talked to doesn't enjoy listening to the other side of the argument

The Land of the Free doesn't mean "Land of the Perfect"

P.s I'm considering locking this thread as it is turning into a heated bicker fest.

[Happy Hopping]

The thing I hated most about the current president, is that he uses the emotion of American after Sept 11, 2001, and drive us towards the Iraq war.

He takes advantage of the soldiers and convinced them that Iraq is behind or related to the Sept 11, 2001 attack.

I mean, even back in the late 90's, after the first Gulf War, there is no mentioning of bin laden and Saddam kiss ass ever.

At the time, we want to get even, so if he said aliens from Mars are responsible for Sept 11, we'll go for it. As emotion are very high.

Taking advantage of American and our troops during our high emotion state after Sept 11 to drill for oil, extending that ??? pipeline thru Iraq is sickening.

What I really want to know is the stock option pay out that the current president and VP gets for the OIL (Operation Iraqi Liberation)