basic hi-md questions - hi-md too good to be true?

[batfastad]

I have a couple of basic questions about hi-md I wanted to ask you.

1) I read on the hi-md info page on minidisc.org that you can just transfer MP3s and files to your hi-md unit over usb without using special software.

Is that correct?

It mentioned that you could just pretty much drag and drop in windows so long as your os supported USB mass storage devices.

Is that true?

Can you do that with an old style md disc as well so long as it's hi-md formatted? Just drag and drop?

Take a look at this page...

http://www.minidisc.org/hi-md_faq.html

"Hi-MD recorders can be used directly as USB connected data drives on any PC supporting USB storage devices (no additional drivers needed).

If I dropped an MP3 file on it in that way would it play on the player?

2) And you can store any sort of file on it? Just like a CF card or something?

3) I've not got usb 2 -3yr old laptop - how long would it take to transfer 1gb of data? I know it depends on whether its thousands of smaller files rather than one large file but as an estimate - how much slower is it than using a compact flash card and a card reader say?

If so then I'm so buying a hi-md unit!

4) I assume to use the atrac3 and atrac3plus features though you'll have to do it through sonic stage or open mg jukebox(arrgh!).

Have sony killed off open mg jukebox? I hope so.

I think I'd rather buy a few more blanks rather than spending time (in my experience-yawn!) converting to atrac.

5) Which would you recommend - the mz-nh1 is it worth the money?

Can you just plug a usb cable into the side of the unit so you don't have to carry the bulky looking cradle?

Presumably it might be a usb-mini connector of some sort.

6) Is the rechargeable battery a chewing type job so you can just whack a fresh one in?

I've got an old sony portable player (mz-e75), and a JB980s net md deck and my experiences with net md left me irritated-that sony potentially had a format which could have conquered all, but with stupid limitations on recording and stupid conversion to atrac taking ages just annoyed me.

From my understanding so far hi-md could be a large step forward. I need a new portable player and was thinking about an iPod (or flash memory equivalent) but i've always favoured md because it's pretty robust as I do skiing and mountainbiking.

I hope that i'm not wrong in my understanding of this hi-md business though.

Ben

[atrain]

actually your pretty wrong.

it is a mass storage device. it'll store files but you can't access them from the himd, to all intents & purposes its a hard disk. it's also usb 1.1, so not that fast, it's a bonus for people who like md anyway - not a reason to buy it.

there is still no drag & drop for music, it still needs to go through sonicstage & be converted & transferred.

[batfastad]

dammit!!!

I thought it sounded too good to be true.

How long does it take to convert & transfer? pretty much the same as net md?

I normally chuck stuff onto md using lp2 as it has a balance between recording time and conversion time in the software.

Oh well

Thanks

Ben

[dex Otaku]

1) I read on the hi-md info page on minidisc.org that you can just transfer MP3s and files to your hi-md unit over usb without using special software.

Is that correct?

As long as your OS supports USB mass-storage devices, yes, you can drag'n'drop transfer any file of any type to HiMD-formatted media, be they 1GB discs or traditional MDs.

If I dropped an MP3 file on it in that way would it play on the player?

No. HiMD does not natively play any formats other than atrac3 and atrac3+, Sony's proprietary audio coding systems. You can take mp3s back and forth between computers, sure. But the units will not play them.

SonicStage [sS, and its sidekick app, Simple Burner] is required for encoding / transcoding and transferring tracks to MD and HiMD media. SS is required for uploading analogue-recorded tracks from HiMD media to your computer.

No other software currently works with HiMD, and no plans to include such functionality in any other software are currently known. Making an app that would be compatible with Sony's protocols and the atrac3/atrac3+ CODECs would require liscensing them.

3) I've not got usb 2 -3yr old laptop - how long would it take to transfer 1gb of data? I know it depends on whether its thousands of smaller files rather than one large file but as an estimate - how much slower is it than using a compact flash card and a card reader say?

As stated in the HiMD FAQ: data transfer rate of MDs formatted to HiMD is 4.37Mbps; with 1GB HiMDs it is 9.83Mbps. Assuming these are peak values and apply only to reading the disc, the fastest the HiMD can move data from a disc is under the USB 1.1 peak rate of 12Mbps [source: usb.org].

Writeable MD and HiMD are also magneto-optical. MO media are not famous for their speed.

Point being: the write speed is actually slow. For writing a few songs to a disc, it's fine. For writing data [outside of SonicStage] my tests [writing a single 950MB archive to HiMD for copying to another computer] have shown it to take in excess of 50 minutes to do so on average [with a system that is otherwise idle].

I do not recommend using HiMD as a mass-storage device for anything other than a few small documents.

4) I assume to use the atrac3 and atrac3plus features though you'll have to do it through sonic stage or open mg jukebox(arrgh!).

SonicStage it is. And -only- SonicStage. Unless you have newer Sony/Sonic Foundry software such as Sound Forge 7.0b, which at the very least will apparently write to netMDs, and will enable the user to encode atrac3/atrac3+ files.

I think I'd rather buy a few more blanks rather than spending time (in my experience-yawn!) converting to atrac.

On my athlon XP 2500+ I can rip a full CD and encode it to atrac3+ 256kbps in under 4 minutes [average]. That seems reasonable to me.

Whether you're encoding to mp3 or atrac3, you still have to wait.

5) Which would you recommend - the mz-nh1 is it worth the money?

Can you just plug a usb cable into the side of the unit so you don't have to carry the bulky looking cradle?

Presumably it might be a usb-mini connector of some sort.

To my knowledge, the NH-1 requires the cradle. I would recommend the NH900 if anything, because it also supports using ordinary AA dry cells.

6) Is the rechargeable battery a chewing type job so you can just whack a fresh one in?

The NH-1 and NH900 use unconventional batteries. See here: http://www.minidisc.org/himd_table.html

The NH900 also supports AAs. The 600-800s all use AAs exclusively. I consider the unconventional batteries to be a huge minus, personally.

..my experiences with net md left me irritated-that sony potentially had a format which could have conquered all, but with stupid limitations on recording and stupid conversion to atrac taking ages just annoyed me.

From my understanding so far hi-md could be a large step forward. I need a new portable player and was thinking about an iPod (or flash memory equivalent) but i've always favoured md because it's pretty robust..

I have yet to make any MD or HiMD player I've ever used skip.

I'll note that the newer units themselves are made more of plastic than anything else. Mind you, I have dropped my NH700 [all plastic] from maybe 1m high a few times now and it still works as it should.

Encoding/transcoding takes time, yes. But then, unless you're dealing exclusively with a collection of ripped-off, I mean downloaded mp3s, ripping your own CDs takes time whether you're using iTunes or SonicStage to do so.

Cheers,

D

[marcnet]

The MZ-NH1 comes with both a USB cable and a cradle.

The cradle is used for charging ONLY

The cable is used for data/audio transfer.

Both cannot be used at the same time. However, the MZ-NH1 uses power from the usb port when doing data/audio transfer so that the battery dosnt get cained as the ones in the old NetMD's did.

[batfastad]

Ok brilliant - thanks for clearing that up for me guys.

Imagine if hi-md was just drag and drop of MP3s!! Then it really would sell.

4 minutes for a whole CD seems ok - I think I'll begin looking for some kind of compact flash solution where I can just drag and drop - I'll be pretty sorry to leave minidisc.

[xispe]

you see, hi-md for mp3 handling, just kind of ... sucks damn. lol

[batfastad]

Sony were so close!!!

Sounds to me that hi-md might be too little too late.

Thanks guys

[mr O]

Hello, I'm having some basic questions to.

I'm looking for something to record lectures (about 45 min) with 16bits/44.1kHz (I guess you can chose mono when recording a HI-MD, am I right?). I have now come to HI-MD, and wonder some thing about it.

1. I have read about and tried to understand this HI-MD Renderer program but don't understand this about .oma-files. (Is it the file you get from SonicStage?) Could anybody explain from the beginning? What does SonicStage do? What can I use the files I get from SS for if I don't use the Render program? (I never heard of a soundfile named *.oma)

2. If I record a PCM file (45 min, 16bits/44.1kHz, mono, ~250MB) on a HI-MD and want it to my PC as a .wav file and use SS and Render, will this affect the sound quality off my file?

3. Lets say I have 3 or 4 lectures on my HI-MD disc (say 1GB data) and want it as .wav files (or possibly only one big .wav file) on my PC. How long will it take to do that if you're used to the programs?

This is interesting and I hope HI-MD is what I'm locking for.

[nito448]

Hello All,

I am interested in HiMD and I have the same question as Mr O. I'm a student and I record 3.5 hours of lecture 3 times a week. So transfer rate is an important issue.

I have read that HiMDrender is faster than realtime but how much faster, 100x or 2x or something inbetween?

Since HiMDrender works through direct show, I am guessing that the file is not being decode, but resampled. Therefore, does HiMDrender create seperate wav file for each track or a single large file for all recordings? I'm guessing seperate files but don't want to assume.

Given it creates seperate files and the user knows the amount of dead air in each track prior to the beginning of lecture, can switches be enabled to skip the ?:?? minutes per track (as the hall is settling down).

Thanks in advance - Nito

[xeroxide]

Ok, I don't know about 3.5 hrs but a 0.5 hr lecture can be uploaded to the pc in just a few minutes. Hi-LP is quicker (due to the smaller file size). The files are not resampled but are placed on the pc at the same sample rate (Hi-SP = 256kbps, Hi-LP = 64/48 kbps).

Ok, I'm not sure if you've used an MD before so...

anything recorded through mic/line-in can be split into tracks (or put together again). Each track will become its own file on the pc. They can then be turned into wav files and burned on a cd or copied to another md.

Be aware that you may only transfer a file to the PC digitally through usb once. After that, it will be locked and can only be deleted or played.

For a 3.5 hr lecture, I'd probably try HI-LP (if transfer rate is important). As a bonus, with a 1gb disk, you can hold quite a few lectures with Hi-lp ;-)

[nito448]

Hello and thanks for the reply.

Just so you don't misunderstand, I have 3 lecture that I want to record and each class is 1.25 hour long. As for the transfer rate, can you be a little more exact.

I think you are refering to Sony's file transfer utility. I have not read of any limit for HiMDrender.

You are correct, I'm a newbie and trying to learn as much as possible before making a purchase.

BTW, I read in another post that HiMDrender may be able to encode to MP3 or other format usable by other players. It would be nice to fit a few lectures onto disk and review while driving.

Thanks in advance Nito

[dex Otaku]

Just so you don't misunderstand, I have 3 lecture that I want to record and each class is 1.25 hour long. As for the transfer rate, can you be a little more exact.

I think you are refering to Sony's file transfer utility. I have not read of any limit for HiMDrender.

Transfer rate:

For PCM audio it averages between 2.5-3x realtime, which is consistent with the expected transfer rate of about 4-5Mbps.

By the same token, HiSP transfers at about 10-15x realtime, and HiLP [64kbps] at about 50-60x realtime.

The number of tracks being transferred and disc fragmentation [since MD and HiMD do not record in one long track, rather they go to where free space is to write the next chunk] will affect transfer speeds. Having a lot of short tracks will slow things down to a veritable crawl as the unit itself spends most of its time seeking back and forth between the track table and track data [much like how a CD-ROM works without cacheing].

Transfer limits [i.e. # of times to transfer] are determined by Sony's DRM. When you record something on a HiMD-formatted disc, it is marked as a new recording, never transferred, etc. When you transfer it to your computer with SonicStage [sS], SS marks the track on disc as having been copied to a computer. After that, you can play the track from the original disc, but if you try to transfer it again, SS will simply delete it [something most of us have found out by accident, since it's not officially specified anywhere that it will do that].

Mind you, you can still copy the tracks from SS to another disc.

[nito448]

Thank you Dex! Sorry for the late reply, I've been busy with exams.

[nito448]

Goodnews after reading Dex's info, I purchased a HiMD model 800 to experiment with and accidentally found a quick way to backup a recording.

Can someone or some group confirm results and upon confirmation write a faq.

Specifications:

HiMD model 800

Sonic Stage V2.2

HiMDrender 3.0

Win 2K

Steps taken

1) Start Sonic Stage.

2) View transfer HiMD.

3) Right click and rename file. This seems to create a duplicate file.

4) Highlight renamed file and press transfer arrow.

5) Important, do not close transfer progress window. This maybe the reason so many people lose files while transfering. I noticed a short hang time when the unit seemed to have finished file transfer.

6) Start HiMDrender and specify file and output folder.

7) Render.

8) Played wav file to confirm recording.

9) Shut down PC, disconnected PC speaker and attached to HiMD.

10) Played file.

Good luck Nito

[dex Otaku]

I don't understand. I always name the tracks on my HiMD before transferring them - how are you getting duplicates of them on the disc by using rename?

Something tells me you're mistaken. [Probably the fact that I have named upwards of 150 tracks on HiMD formatted discs in the transfer window and never seen SS create a duplicate.]

[nito448]

Dex,

Thanks for replying.

I am renaming from within Sonic Stage not on the HiMD unit.

Steps for renaming:

1) Click view.

2) Select transfer HiMD.

3) Highlight test file.

4) right click and type new file name with highlighted box.

5) enter, once I press enter a sub file appears as untitled but main folder has new name.

Thank - Nito

[dex Otaku]

Ah. A little misunderstanding there - when I say I name the tracks on my HiMD, what I mean is that I use SonicStage to title tracks on the HiMD -before- transferring them.

Among other things, this makes it so that the files created by SS are already named intelligibly, making them easier to find with, say, HiMDRenderer.

Like I said, I've titled tracks on my HiMDs using SonicStage many times, and never seen it produce a duplicate.

Incidentally, right-clicking doesn't bring up a box to edit the title. Left-clicking can.

"once I press enter a sub file appears as untitled but main folder has new name."

Um. Maybe you abbreviated there. Could you try saying it again in "longhand"? Because this really doesn't make even a little bit of sense to me (again, mainly because I've renamed such a large number of tracks with SS but never had this same result).

[nito448]

Hi Dex,

I'll replicate the steps taken for file duplication and take some screen shot.

Do you have an email I can forward to or provide instruction for adding screen shots to postings.

Hopefully you will be able to confirm - Nito

[nito448]

Dex,

Here is the link in Yahoo photos.

Nito

yahoo picture index here

Go to View Transfer HiMD

Right Click and rename

New folder and sub file created, double click new folder to see.

Highlight new renamed folder (not the file) and click transfer

[Qwakrz]

Nito, you have given a name to the folder but NOT the tracks in that folder. Hi-MD makes a new folder every time you start a recording (not after a pause) and makes a new track whenever you press the track mark button.

This is akin to naming an album & then not naming the tracks.

If you only have one folder & track (as in your case) you could name the folder with the type of recording (e.g. Live recordings) and the track with details (e.g. recorded on 13-11-04) and this would then make sence, or you could just leave the folder untitled & name the track (track name is the final file name & folder name would be the folder it goes in on the PC. I have not yet done MD->PC copies so am not sure on this but thats the way it makes them when going PC->MD)

[nito448]

Dex,

I just checked you are right about the folder file combination.

However, I am able to upload a file by clicking on the open folder (not the file) and maintain a copy of the original source file on the HiMD. Please note, when I transfer the folder, the folder is deleted from HiMD, but the original source file appears as a seperate track in HiMD. I have not yet tried this for multiple tracks within a folder.

BTW, I read a post about someone trying to read files tranferred to a CF. Are their media readers available that can read a HiMD and copy files? I looked but could not find the post again.

Thanks for the replies - Nito

[nito448]

Dex & Qwakrz,

I have tried multiple files under multiple folders now with unusual results. My files and folders are no longer being deleted by SS. Knock on wood, I prefer to do my own deletions.

As for people who lose files when using SS and the reason for my discussion. I think this is due to the system hanging during transfer and the file tranfer being incomplete when the user disconnects the unit thus destroying all records.

Have a good week and thanks for all the replies - Nito

[mazuio]

I'm curious, have you tried this procedure with tracks not inside a folder?

[nito448]

yes, file outside folder do not get replicated.

As for file deletion, it only occurs on the second upload attempt. Location of the file is not a consideration.

Nito

[dex Otaku]

nito:

re: deletion on 2nd attempt - this is a well-known "feature" that Sony threw into SS. Transfers are only allowed once with recorded tracks.

SS also does the same if you attempt to transfer tracks that were copied to the HiMD using SS [even from the same computer].

Also: there is an option to delete tracks after uploading. I have this off by default.

re: tracks getting trashed - I have had this happen a number of times [Jadeclaw and I were the first to report this issue on the fora] and SS has never crashed when it happened, I have never unplugged the unit, &c. SS simply reports an "Unknown Error" and then procedes to finish the rest of the tracks you selected.

Try searching the fora for "SS trashing tracks" or something.

[nito448]

Hi Dex,

Thanks for commenting. In my experience with USB, sometimes the transfer gets hung up. An example would be if you had a source causing interference, you had a large CPU load spike (AV self scan) that caused transfer to be interupted, or in my case USB 1.1 on PC (buffering). The USB hang is not common but it does happen especailly when a large amount of data is being transferred to slow devices or vice a versa. This is why external HD first came out on firewire then on USB 2.0, USB 1.1 was to slow and ran into buffer problems. Don't quote me on the last part, just my understanding. Another way to explain this is during the early days of CDR, if a buffer problem occurred during transfer, the end product was a coaster.

On another note, is there a setting for buffering inside SS?

Thanks - Nito

[dex Otaku]

SS basically has no tech-related settings whatsoever. You either trust it to work, or you don't use it.

The problems I've run into with SS dumping uploads were with my HiMD being the only device plugged into that specific [uSB 2.0] interface, with a computer that is otherwise idle.

[nito448]

Hi Dex,

I know this is a pain, but our only recourse is trial and error.

1) Does it only happen with large files?

2) Have you tried another USB port?

3) Have you tried a different USB cable?

4) Is the USB port you are using on board or an add on card?

5) Are any external media readers available that can reader HiMD or MD?

6) Have you tried adding the extra chokes to the USB cable?

7) Have you tried to format the disk? I know it adds wear and tear to the disk, but the media may be bad.

Nito

[dex Otaku]

Uh. Hmm.

1) No. Track size makes no difference.

2) Yes.

3) As I only have the one that fits, no. However, see below.

4) on-board [Nvidia Nforce2-based motherboard]; however, see below.

5) None exist as consumer devices.

6) The extra chokes would not fit the USB cable. Furthermore, they would likely have no effect.

7) The media is not the problem. See below.

Your suggestions are somewhat helpful and show good troubleshooting ability. However - I have tested my HiMD as USB media sufficiently to be -very- certain [as close to absolutely certain as a skeptic like myself can be] that the USB cable, USB port, &c. are not the problem, and in fact have nothing to do with the problem.

The problem is SonicStage. Plain and simple. It actually -does- the transfers, then for whatever reason screws them up. I do not for one second believe that this is caused by my USB controller, cabling, or other software I might be running, say. Especially since it happens to other people with completely different equipment; the common factor among all is SonicStage.

[nito448]

Hi Dex,

If you are absolutely sure it is not the hardware and the problem is software, here is the criteria to follow:

1) What OS does the highest freq of failure occur?

2) What other software packages are installed on the PCs?

3) Has anyone who has had the failure tried it on a bare PC? Only video, sound, patches, network, and SS installed?

4) If you are running win 98SE, ME, or Win 2k try running regclean. IF nothing else it may fix other problems.

Nito

[nito448]

Hi Dex,

Try this.

1) create a test file.

2) do not edit test file.

3) do not connect power supply to HiMD.

4) Transfer file.

If that works, create another test file, edit test file and transfer.

SS just crashed on me and the only difference versus past trials was the editing and connection to the power adapter. I am thinking it is the chokes that is damaging the files.

Nito

[dex Otaku]

I can't even actually answer these questions, as I'm only one of the users.

The telling bit is that, even not knowing what specific OS version, hardware, or other software is being used - the problem is experienced identically by those who experience it. Which would suggest to me that the problem is with the application that experiences the error, not anything else.

That doesn't make me correct, of course. I only have a certain amount of intuition from being a PC tech for 15 years to go on.

BTW, regclean works under XP as well.

RE: creating test files - I have set my HiMD to record in HiLP with 2-minute auto track-marking, left it running connected to the radio, then transferred the resulting [200+] tracks. I have done this more than once. Naturally, SS never lost a track. If I bring something home that is totally irreplacable, though - SS gags and trashes tracks.

say, nito... why don't you start a thread in the tech topics forum asking people to submit the above info if they experience SS trashing tracks. That way we could have somewhat of a database to go with.

[Happy Hopping]

I bought the Japanese import ver. of NH1. The AC adapter is the Japanese ver.

Input: AC 100V, 50/60Hz, 12VA

Output: DC 6V, 800mA

Q. 1) In North America, our input AC is 115V, 60Hz, so the input AC voltage is higher than the Japanese ver. of AC Adapter, what happens if I connect the above to the wall and the other end to the NH1 for charging?

I also bought the Sony (North America) ver. of AC adapter, part no. AC-E60HG, which states:

Input: AC 120V, 60Hz, 12W

output: DC 6V, 700mA

Q. 2) If I use the above, which only output 700mA instead of the 800mA that the supposed to come with the NH1 (Japanese ver.) charger, what happens?

Q. 3) I can't find the required output DC current requirement of the NH1, the battery requirement is 3.7V, 370mAh, so is the battery requirement ALSO the CURRENT (amp) requirement of the unit?

Please help

[jadeclaw]

The 100mA less of the US-adaptor would not have any negative effect, as the US and the japanese NH1 are essentially the same, except for minor differences in Software.

Using the japanese 100V adaptor on the US 115V will lead to overheating. I do not recommend that.

[Latexxx]

I wonder why Sony doesn't ship 100-240V 50/60 Hz 1000mA adaptors outside of Europe.

[Happy Hopping]

The 100mA less of the US-adaptor would not have any negative effect, as the US and the japanese NH1 are essentially the same, except for minor differences in Software.

Using the japanese 100V adaptor on the US 115V will lead to overheating. I do not recommend that.

thanks for the info.

========================

You know, I wonder for those of you who bought the US version locally, what does your adaptor say?

1) how many mA is your adaptor rated?

2) What is the model name of your adaptor?

because the adaptor that comes with the unit, regardless whether it is a cd portalbe player, or MD portable player, is very light and tiny, like my DJ-2000 adapter. Whereas the charger I pay separately (AC-E60HG) is a heavy, big piece of rock, so I wonder what you people US adaptor is like?

[insurgente]

Transfer limits [i.e. # of times to transfer] are determined by Sony's DRM. When you record something on a HiMD-formatted disc, it is marked as a new recording, never transferred, etc. When you transfer it to your computer with SonicStage [sS], SS marks the track on disc as having been copied to a computer. After that, you can play the track from the original disc, but if you try to transfer it again, SS will simply delete it [something most of us have found out by accident, since it's not officially specified anywhere that it will do that].  

i was just wanting confirmation on this seeming craziness..... so if i make my own recording of, for example, my non-existent band, i can only upload it once to one computer? is this to stop me bootlegging to lots of computers? if i upload it to my computer then delete it later, i cant upload it again?

not to sound too stupid, but is this what you mean when you talk about SS trashing tracks that you want to upload?

[dex Otaku]

No, SS trashing tracks refers to a bug that intermittently causes SS to dump a track while you're uploading it to your computer, usually also damaging the version on disc as well, meaning neither is then playable or uploadable [i.e. it's gone forever].

Hence my repeated suggestions over the last few months that people use Total Recorder to back up their recordings -before- uploading them with SS, since the TR method does not risk damage in any way, and there's no real way of predicting when SS may or may not trash your irreplacable recordings.

And yes, re: your first paragraph insurgente, that's exactly what it means. However - once you have the recording on your computer and have converted it to WAV, you can do whatever you want with it.

[Christopher]

What're your experiences with 2.3 and trashing tracks, Dex? I've had no failures.