2GB Minidiscs

[ROMBUSTERS]

No they havn't been announced (yet) so don't get excited. However there is a lot of rumors going on about their introduction this coming year. As some of us know the HiMD article calls for discs of at least up to 2GB (being compatible with current decks).

Does anyone know anymore info about these rumors or anything regarding the future of HiMD discs? If 1GB = 60Min original MDs then we're looking at least a few tricks sony can pull to increase the storage and still keep it working on all machines.

[dex Otaku]

Where did you hear the rumour of compatibility with existing decks?

Existing literature [linked from minidisc.org] lists the possible capacity of 64mm DWDD discs as up to 4.7GB, and mentions the possible 2nd-gen HiMD with 2GB discs, but nowhere is compatibility with existing units addressed.

[Sharpo51]

Existing literature [linked from minidisc.org] lists the possible capacity of 64mm DWDD discs as up to 4.7GB, and mentions the possible 2nd-gen HiMD with 2GB discs, but nowhere is compatibility with existing units addressed.

At the end of the article "Domain Wall Displacement Detection Mini Disc with Land/Groove Recording Applied to Mini Disc Systems" (Japanese Journal of Applied Physics, March 2002) it reads: "Optimizing groove geometry, surface treatment and molding conditions, a wide tolerance and capability of over 2.0 GB [...], equivalent to 14 times the capacity of MD, was confirmed. This can be accomplished by using the same dimension optical pick-up of the MD system to maintain the interchangeability of the MDs." To me this means that the 2 GB disc can be used in the current Hi-MD models. Or am I missing something?

[dex Otaku]

It seems not, Sharpo51.

[Sharpo51]

It seems not, Sharpo51.

Mmh... But what does the 2 GB disc prevent from playing in a Hi-MD recorder?

[dex Otaku]

No, I meant that it seems you're not missing anything. i.e. I'm admitting my mistake.

[1kyle]

Without wishing to get into the area of Computer "Geekdom" too much --there is an inherent limitation in any case to the File Size -- irrespective of the capacity of the disk.

The limitation is based on the File System used in writing the Disks. If the Minidisc system uses (as I suspect it does) the FAT 16 file system (The earlier Windows system) then the maximum file system size is 2GB. Unless the firmware is re-written to use FAT32 (a file system used by the current versions of Windows and readable by most other OS'es such as Mac and Linux) then 2GB will remain the maximum theoretical limit from the SOFTWARE's point of view.

I'm not sure about the earlier Net MD disks operating in SP/LP2/LP4 mode as these were'nt designed originally as Data discs. You can dump sectors of the 1GB disks and the dump shows that the file system seems to conform to Windows FAT 16 specifications. I suspect that the older disks re-formatted in HI-SP mode will also use the FAT 16 system. I haven't got any mechanism of reading the SP/LP/LP4 disks directly yet but I think I might be able to do something on my Linux box.

[ROMBUSTERS]

now another question is did Sony hold disc with greater capacity because:

1) they were too difficult to make

2) they don't exist

3) too expensive (at the time)

4) they want to sell more 1GB discs

5) they now want to stay competetive with HDD players which offer GBs of memory

has anyone found any other literature regarding this matter?

[Christopher]

I wouldn't look too much into this. Densities are not as important as write speeds, which I would look into optimizing first before chasing shadows.

[Hyena]

I wouldn't look too much into this. Densities are not as important as write speeds, which I would look into optimizing first before chasing shadows.

How would they go about increasing those? I thought that the write speeds for HiMD were already at their max.

Either way, I hope Sony pursues some power optimization with Hi-MD, because recording with a 1 GB disc is just terrible when it comes to battery life. :whatever:

[Christopher]

It can be done, but we won't see anything like it until the third or fourth generation I imagine.

Terrible when it comes to battery life? If you've got a NH900, the AA + gumstick combo almost nullifies that and the computer transfers are powered by USB. I've had great battery life with my NH900 in almost any scenario.

[Hyena]

Well, I'm not the type of person who has AA's lying around. In fact, my apartment is constantly devoid of them. But! This is not my complaint.

Neither is the unit being powered by the USB port. I'm talking about recording.

Sony states that it's like 5 hours for HiSP (just using the gumstick), but I've found it to be more like 4 hours, AND to top it off, for some reason, whenever my unit shows that my gumstick is depeleted from anywhere between a quarter or halfway, I CANNOT record, because the unit tells me that I do not have enough power to record in HiMD mode. :whatever:

[Christopher]

Yes, that is very frustrating. Have you experienced random cut offs as well? I was experimenting with manual recording levels and the unit totally shut off on it's own and the gumstick is fully charged.

Additionally, you know that high capacity rechargeable AA's are super cheap online. :rasp: No sympathy for the lazy. *duck*

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Back to the topic at hand, yes, higher capacities are available but the highest importance is correcting the nuances that we're faced with now - battery life, write speeds [which are tolerable to me, but not everyone] and a few other quirks/needs. I feel that Sony won't address higher capacity until that's resolved.

[indeego]

@Hyena:

as mentioned in your operating instructions recording on a HiMD uses much power so the recorder refuses when its not enough power to record and save your inputs .. so its a kind of (annoying) protection .. you may change your gummstick to increase your batterylife ..

@kurisu:

do you really think sony would wait until the third or fourth generation of HiMD to improve the transferspeed? I think when HiMD earns more attention this point will be for many users not tolerable (any more) ..

[Christopher]

indeego, you need to re-read what I've said; you've misunderstood me.

[Hyena]

Yes, that is very frustrating. Have you experienced random cut offs as well? I was experimenting with manual recording levels and the unit totally shut off on it's own and the gumstick is fully charged.

Additionally, you know that high capacity rechargeable AA's are super cheap online. :rasp: No sympathy for the lazy. *duck*

Yeah, actually I have. In my opinion, the NH900 is a very "quirky" unit. There's a few annoyances that it has, but it's first gen tech, and better to have it occasionally annoy you than to have it's recording block just die. (*cough* N1 *cough* )

Yeeeah, I'm lazy..... most of the time I do have the power supply with me for when I record. (Thank goodness the cradle isn't required for that. When I first looked the unit over, I nearly had a cow regarding that. ^^;; )

as mentioned in your operating instructions recording on a HiMD uses much power so the recorder refuses when its not enough power to record and save your inputs ..  so its a kind of (annoying) protection .. you may change your gummstick to increase your batterylife ..

No, I know. Even on the back of the unit there's a sticker that states that. I wasn't aware that the gumstick needed to be totally charged in order to record in Hi-MD mode, but then again, who knows how reliable the battery life indicator is on the unit.

When money comes my way, I may look into the higher MAH batteries. (Like the Moshi Maro batteries? )

[ROMBUSTERS]

How would they go about increasing those? I thought that the write speeds for HiMD were already at their max.

Either way, I hope Sony pursues some power optimization with Hi-MD, because recording with a 1 GB disc is just terrible when it comes to battery life. :whatever:

actually theoretically speaking the limiting factor for writing to HiMDs right now is the time it takes for the laser to heat the disc to its curie point (before applying the magnetic data). Therefore if the desnity of the disc increased (and the data would then be placed closer together to fit within the same MD shape) the laser would in fact be heating up a lot more places to write data to then it currently does. In this way HiMD discs can only increase in write speed with increased density (using those theories of course). Obviously i wouldnt be expecting anything huge in an increase, or anything really noticable at all.

[streaml1ne]

Maybe the 2GB disc is UMD that's used in the PSP? I think that's 1.8Gig and 60mm.

[Ryzir]

I think I remember hearing that Sony was thinking of making hi-md disc 1.8gb but that if they did Hi-md wouldn't be backward compatible with the regular discs. They decided instead to make them 1gb and have backward compatibility. Personally I would rather have the 1.8gb discs. Maybe they will come out with audio players for the UMD discs (you can put atrac and mp3 on these discs and listen to them on the psp already).

[MDGB2]

At the moment I'd rather that they concentrated on increasing availability of the current 1GB disc and lowering purchasing costs! :wacky:

[sxc]

Maybe they will come out with audio players for the UMD discs (you can put atrac and mp3 on these discs and listen to them on the psp already).

Are you sure? The PSP device is a read-only device. It does have a memory stick slot and you can transfer video, atrac and mp3s to that to listen to.

[ROMBUSTERS]

I think I remember hearing that Sony was thinking of making hi-md disc 1.8gb but that if they did Hi-md wouldn't be backward compatible with the regular discs. They decided instead to make them 1gb and have backward compatibility. Personally I would rather have the 1.8gb discs. Maybe they will come out with audio players for the UMD discs (you can put atrac and mp3 on these discs and listen to them on the psp already).

The PSP UMD is based off of Sony's HiMD technology true. However they are write only and Sony has (currently) no intentions on releasing blanks (to help with piracy issues for the PSP). To play back music on the PSP you must first transfer your files to memory stick (which is expensive per MB) and then put it into the memory slot of the PSP. Unfortunately SonicStage doesn't support the PSP or Memory Stick Currently (for obvious file trading issues) so the Atrac support for the PSP is currently nonexistant.

[Hyena]

The PSP UMD is based off of Sony's HiMD technology true.

How is it based off of HiMD technology? UMDs and HiMDs share nothing in common whatsoever. HiMD is a MO disc that utilizes DWDD, and UMDs are dual layer optical discs more akin to DVDs than anything else.

[ROMBUSTERS]

rather UMDs were born of HiMD roots

i read somewhere (cant find source now) that the UMDs use the same switching layer technology as well as many other similar attributes. wait till i find the source because id rather not misquote anything.

anywho back on topic: 2GB discs... continue

[Jammin72]

I really have to laugh at this... 2300 mAH NiMH batteries are cheap at Wal Mart these days... I can't imagine complaining about battery time when you can get 7 hours out of a single "AA" battery that over it's lifetime represents a coulpe of pennies per use. Try dragging in Lead Acid batteries to power Pre-Amps, DAT Recorders etc... You'll be quite pleased with your problem. Run the Gumstick and the "AA" and you'll have no problems.

2 GB Discs would be perfect!!! One Set per Disc with no "Flip" worries.

Well, I'm not the type of person who has AA's lying around. In fact, my apartment is constantly devoid of them. But! This is not my complaint.

Neither is the unit being powered by the USB port. I'm talking about recording.

Sony states that it's like 5 hours for HiSP (just using the gumstick), but I've found it to be more like 4 hours, AND to top it off, for some reason, whenever my unit shows that my gumstick is depeleted from anywhere between a quarter or halfway, I CANNOT record, because the unit tells me that I do not have enough power to record in HiMD mode.  :whatever:

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[dex Otaku]

I wouldn't look too much into this. Densities are not as important as write speeds, which I would look into optimizing first before chasing shadows.

←

Increased density usually means increased read and write speeds.

I know that's oversimplifying a bit, but it's usually one of the results.

[ROMBUSTERS]

You know what they could to thats theoretically possible? (although maybe not with current set ups)

If they could make a disc that was flippable (i.e. reversable like a tape deck Side A/Side and if it had a strong enough magnetic resistant shielding between the 2 'data layers' (sides) it could heat the back of the disc with the laser and then apply the data magnetically (effectively the reverse of todays method). Obviously how very complex this would be makes this a pipe dream but it'd still be interesting to see it in action (if its even possible)

[Michael1980]

Hey, SonicStage does support Memory Stick MagicGate (White Colour). Offcourse that is no use for PSP.

Edited January 5, 2005 by Michael1980

[Hyena]

I really have to laugh at this... 2300 mAH NiMH batteries are cheap at Wal Mart these days... I can't imagine complaining about battery time when you can get 7 hours out of a single "AA" battery that over it's lifetime represents a coulpe of pennies per use.  Try dragging in Lead Acid batteries to power Pre-Amps, DAT Recorders etc... You'll be quite pleased with your problem.  Run the Gumstick and the "AA" and you'll have no problems.

←

As cheap as they are, maybe I'm complaining because as it stands I cannot afford AA batteries? I can't even afford cigarettes either.

But okay, great, I can use an AA and get more battery life out of it. Hooray. My MZ-R50 has a better recording time using it's single Li-ion battery than my NH900 does with it's gumstick. I don't care about using AA attachments, I care about what the battery life is with the single battery, which happens to be less than a unit that's over 7 years old.

[dex Otaku]

As cheap as they are, maybe I'm complaining because as it stands I cannot afford AA batteries? I can't even afford cigarettes either. 

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Heh. I hear ya. I buy batteries in bulk, though - the local "Superstore" [a western Canadian thing] sells cheap AA alkalines in 40-packs for $11.99CAD.

My NH700 lasts roughly, for playback, 22-27 hours.

For HiSP recording [on a 1GB disc] it can last 6+ hours.

It may sound wasteful, but at that price and considering the longevity of these cheap batteries.. It takes me a year to get through a box. The benefit of NiMH batteries would be close to nil for me.

[Jammin72]

The Benefit of the NiMH batteries is that they're always there, no trip to the store... Once you've invested then you don't have to have a dime for your batteries. Also ... c'mon folks there really is only one planet. Think of it as ritual or ceremony... part of the thing that you do before the show to summon the music. Really, life enjoys ritual, there is a difference.

As for the Cigarettes... well cost is relative a guess.

As for the battery life with your older unit...

If you're happy with the results record in Hi-SP or format your disc in MD and run SP you'll get the same or better time you had before using standard discs

Heh.  I hear ya.  I buy batteries in bulk, though - the local "Superstore" [a western Canadian thing] sells cheap AA alkalines in 40-packs for $11.99CAD. 

My NH700 lasts roughly, for playback, 22-27 hours. 

For HiSP recording [on a 1GB disc] it can last 6+ hours.

It may sound wasteful, but at that price and considering the longevity of these cheap batteries.. It takes me a year to get through a box.  The benefit of NiMH batteries would be close to nil for me.

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[Michael1980]

Yeah, I like those massive boxes of some unknown batteries (not duracell etc), that you can get for £5 for like forty of them lol.

[aeriyn]

UMD is DVD... literally. It's a cut down DVD in a different form-factor and equipped with the full Region Codes just like a DVD. Uses the very same multilayer technology that full sized DVD discs use.

It has absolutely nothing at all to do with Hi-MD.

And as for the issue of speed, MO write speed will never approach the speed of HDD write speed and certainly not solid state. Removable media in portable devices is dying quick and Sony can't see that.

Even the best professional digital recorders are either flash memory or HDD.

[Hyena]

As for the battery life with your older unit...

If you're happy with the results record in Hi-SP or format your disc in MD and run SP you'll get the same or better time you had before using standard discs

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No no, I record in Hi-SP and those were my results. Hearing that Dex gets 6+ makes me think my gumstick is FUBARed or something.

As for regular MD discs in SP, can I upload recorded songs from a HiMD unit that recorded it in NetMD mode? I thought that uploading was restricted to HiMD exclusively, which doesn't include recording with a HiMD unit in MD mode. (If that is the case, I would use my R50, [considering I only use HiMD for unploading] but then I have to worry about stressing unit. I don't want my baby to break. )

[Happy Hopping]

but can the current Hi_MD models, such as NH1 read it?