Rec Settings Too Low?

[hanz0]

hey, in advance i wanna say thanks to all the experts here. your help has been tremendous. anywho, i wanna ask about rec settings for my nh900 during a live concert(ill be recording at Hi-SP). ok, with a lot of help from you guys, i wanted to play with the settings that were recommended to me. im using the sound professionals SP-BMC-2 mics. im also using a radio shack volume attentuator, the volume on max. i keep the mic sens on high, and manually set the rec level at 10/30. now i wanted to give this a test, so i put in a live dvd concert and cranked the volume on my speakers pretty high. i mean, to the point that my ears kinda hurt. now i know this still wont be as loud as the actual concert, but im still a little worried. the recording quailty came out good. there was no distortion or noise in the background. the only problem i had was that the actual sound on the recording was low. now im thinking i wanna set the rec level to at least 15/30 for the live concert. but obviously i dont want to overload the hi-md player(i wont be able to check the rec level during the show). so here are my questions, would it be better to play it safe and keep the level at 10/30, or am i really taking that big a risk by moving the level up to 15/30? are there audio editing programs good at enhancing sound? can i boost audio on a recording w/o losing quailty?

thanks for all the help. im sorry for these noob questions. i know its impossible to really tell me the perfect settings and stuff. thats why ill take any and all suggestions or insights.

[A440]

See what works for you. You can adjust manual record levels as you record (unless you're on HOLD) by turning the wheel or pushing the pointing stick (>) left and right. Blast your source material again and announce each volume level as you do it, play back your recording, and take your pick.

I use 10 because it's never overloaded. But there's no reason you have to. 17-18 is unity gain (OOPS--see next post), no amplifying or lowering (though the RS attenuator is already lowering the sound), so inch up the manual level and see what you like.

REVISE (as seen below): With the RS attenuator and Low Sensitivity, 17-18 has proved safe for me.

Recording/editing programs like Audacity do have an Amplify effect. You just select the entire waveform and pick the percentage. They also amplify background noise, but at a concert background noise is pretty negligible. Look at some of the livefrommd (at) yahoo tracks, some of them have been amplified.

[dex Otaku]

17-18 is unity gain, no amplifying or lowering (though the RS attenuator is already lowering the sound), so inch up the manual level and see what you like. 

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Unity gain only applies to the line-input. There is always gain on the mic input.

[craftech]

Your dilemma is the same one I have encountered so far with these units. They record at too low a level and rely too heavily on cheezy menu driven settings to fiddle with. Even when digitally copying a CD I have found that the recordings are at a significantly lower level than the original when I play them both back through a stereo system using an A-B switch. My older unit didn't suffer from this problem to the same degree as these newer HiMD units seem to.

John

Edited February 9, 2005 by craftech

[dex Otaku]

Your dilemma is the same one I have encountered so far with these units.  They record at too low a level and rely too heavily on cheezy menu driven settings to fiddle with.  Even when digitally copying a CD I have found that the recordings are at a significantly lower level than the original when I play them both back through a stereo system using an A-B switch.  My older unit didn't suffer from this problem to the same degree as these newer HiMD units seem to.

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You're talking apples vs. automobiles, John.

The lower output level you're talking about is because home audio components have nice power supplies that run their converters and preamps, whereas portables like MDs and HiMDs have a single 1.5 or 3V battery. The output amp of a device running off 1.5VDC can't possibly hope to put out the same levels as your CD player.

If you're digitally copying something, and you're not processing it in any way, the digital level will be identical on the source and the recording.

"They record at too low a level and rely too heavily on cheezy menu driven settings to fiddle with." .. As much as I don't like menu-driven interfaces [i'd rather have switches and buttons, myself], I don't think you're being fair here. There's nothing technically wrong with how the recorder functions; if anything, I prefer how the AGC works on my NH700 to all previous MD models I've used, and manual level control is there for a reason. If you don't want to invest the time to learn how to use your equipment properly, I'd say that kind of forfeits your right to complain about it.

[hanz0]

john, i dont really have a problem with my recordings, it was the settings i was fooling around with. i really like my player

[craftech]

If you're digitally copying something, and you're not processing it in any way, the digital level will be identical on the source and the recording.

=======================

False. On mine it is absolutely not the same. That was the point I was trying to make. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough for you in my previous post.

My older unit was NOT like that. Maybe I got a defective one. No surprise considering the internal quality. Maybe you should open one Dex before you make condescending statements.

John

[dex Otaku]

If you're digitally copying something, and you're not processing it in any way, the digital level will be identical on the source and the recording.

=======================

False.  On mine it is absolutely not the same.  That was the point I was trying to make.  Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough for you in my previous post.

My older unit was NOT like that.  Maybe I got a defective one.  No surprise considering the internal quality.  Maybe you should open one Dex before you make condescending statements.

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A digital copy, unless you're using manual record levels [which, to my knowledge, most olders MDs do not support the use of record levels during digital recording], will give you the same digital levels in the recording as were on the source. This is the entire purpose of doing a digital copy.

Note that MDs all resample their input, so even if you put a 44.1kHz 16-bit stereo signal in, it's resampled by the MD [yes, to 44.1kHz]. This means there will be discrepencies in the detail, but still - overall levels [even measured instantaneously] should be "identical" [or at least, within microvolts] between the source and the recording, unless you're processing the signal in some way. Processing includes manual level controls, or any outboard DSP in the recording chain.

Otherwise, when copying via optical, levels in should equal levels out, unless you're changing them yourself.

Whether the analogue connections give you the same levels at both input and output and between different components is another matter entirely. I think this is probably the difference you're noting.

On the other hand, it's possible that your unit is indeed defective, or that I'm completely wrong about how MDs record from digital sources. I'm operating from the assumption that MDs will act as basically all devices with straight digital ins and outs do; they pass the signal from source to destination without altering it.*

* - this is excepting the fact that ATRAC or its descendant variations of compression are being used. Keeping in mind that data reduction is occurring here, but that the goal is for the output to be as similar to the input as possible, what should come out of the ATRAC decoder should be the same overall level as the PCM signal that came into its encoder. i.e. minor variances will occur, but the difference should not be significant enough to ever cause a noticeable drop in overal signal levels.

[aamd]

Just to get back to the original question, with your mics, any setting above 10/30, will reduce the headroom. I agree, that the level ends up being quieter than most normal recordings, but that is because the recording chain is preserving that headroom that isn't being used. After recording, the track can be normalized using an editing program. It seems a safer way to go, since the one time I set a recording to 20/30, is the one time I'm sure I'll get a bunch of loud impacts, and clip.

[craftech]

I sent the unit back for a replacement. I have been unable to get an acceptable recording out of it despite various manual settings. The AGC (which I don't like as a concept anyway) fluctuated more than most and was totally useless instead of being semi-useless. The digital copies were not recorded properly and were distorted to boot.

The unit also didn't shut off properly. Pressing stop worked sometimes, but other times it just changed tracks. Hold it down for 2 seconds and it started beeping and wouldn't stop until I popped out the disc. Hopefully the second one will be better as most of yours seem to be. I really do not like the current trend in consumer electronics toward flimsy construction. My MZ-R37 could substitute as a jack stand.

John

Edited February 15, 2005 by craftech

[hanz0]

I sent the unit back for a replacement.  I have been unable to get an acceptable recording out of it despite various manual settings.  The AGC (which I don't like as a concept anyway) fluctuated more than most and was totally useless instead of being semi-useless.  The digital copies were not recorded properly and were distorted to boot.

The unit also didn't shut off properly.  Pressing stop worked sometimes, but other times it just changed tracks.  Hold it down for 2 seconds and it started beeping and wouldn't stop until I popped out the disc.  Hopefully the second one will be better as most of yours seem to be.  I really do not like the current trend in consumer electronics toward flimsy construction.  My MZ-R37 could substitute as a jack stand.

John

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ive heard a lot about problems with hitting the stop button. i guess ive been lucky so far, cause ive had no problems with my unit yet. and the beeping, i turned that off the day i got it.

[A440]

To go back to the first original question on this thread, I've been doing more experimenting and hereby revise my previous settings upward.

IF you are using the RS attenuator, Low Sensitivity and SoundPro binaurals (or, I assume, other mics based on the Panasonic capsules with the same specs), a big thumping loud music show will not overload at 20/30. To play it safe, try 17 or 18/30.

Without the attenuator, 10/30 makes a lot more sense. But I've still found a problem with loud bass, even at that level.

[jeddeth]

so you keep the attenuator all the way turned up? How does this effect the input from the mic? Is the attenuator already automatically lowering the level even with it turned up all the way?

[A440]

Yes, exactly. Remember, it's running in the opposite direction of what it was designed for. I tried it on a NYC subway car and got a level of 6 bars without the attenuator, 3 bars with.

I don't know the electronics of this, but I can tell you it works.

[jeddeth]

I see! So just to continue clarifying this (I promise to write a faq entry when all is figured out), If I'm at a concert with LOUD music, I should put the mic on Low Sensitivity and manually set the rec volume to 17ish and make sure the rs volume dial is turned to the loudest. If that is overloading then I can either turn the rec volume down to somewhere between 10 and 17. Or I can STart out with the rec volume manually set to 10 and then turn down the volume dial on the RS until I find a happy setting (turning down the volume actually makes the input louder! Right?

I'm going to a show tonight, so I'll try some testing if there is enough light to see anything.

[dex Otaku]

Turning down the RSVC reduces the levels further [attenuation = reduction]. The levels you get with the RSVC at "full volume" are the top levels you'll get through it. Turning down the "volume" will attenuate the signal from the mics further.

[jeddeth]

hey guys,

so I used the attenuator and I set my rec volume to 17 and the recording came out really really quiet. This was a pretty loud show - at rothko if you know nyc clubs - and I was standing about 8 feet infron of one of the speaker stacks. I was shocked at how quiet the recording came out and I had to boost the volume in a sound editor to be able to hear it. However, there was no clipping or AGC distortion, so I guess things worked out. Is this how you meant for it to be, very quiet? I guess I just didn't realize that - or did I do something wrong?

[LowMach]

jeddeth-

did you go line in or mic in?

[Artstar]

hey guys,

so I used the attenuator and I set my rec volume to 17 and the recording came out really really quiet. This was a pretty loud show - at rothko if you know nyc clubs - and I was standing about 8 feet infron of one of the speaker stacks. I was shocked at how quiet the recording came out and I had to boost the volume in a sound editor to be able to hear it. However, there was no clipping or AGC distortion, so I guess things worked out. Is this how you meant for it to be, very quiet? I guess I just didn't realize that - or did I do something wrong?

←

You will have to define "very quiet". I'm assuming that it's not so quiet that if you crank the volume to get it to the "normal" level, it will bring up the noise floor along with it.

I've always been conservative with my recording levels and usually have them set to an average volume of -9dB. This 9dB headroom allows for unexpected peaks that will keep below the 0dB mark so I can then do the appropriate post-production work on my PC. I whip out Cooledit Pro first, using it to flavour the sound with the 30-band graphic EQ and once I've got it to where I want it to be, I then whip out Soundforge which is used to normalise and then hard limit (if necessary) the recording to make the levels just how I like them.

So are they quiet on the MD? Yeah, definitely but not down to a whisper either otherwise I'll end up amplifying the noise floor to the point that it is noticeable and that means the slight high-pitched buzz of the spindle motor becomes more than just slight.

Ultimately, the only way you'll know for sure dude is to try it in real world applications. Cranking your stereo or TV for a sound check won't do it. If you have any musicians as friends (especially a drummer like me), get them to slam their instruments while you mess with the levels to find what seems to be the maximum you can go and then reduce it by anything between 6 to 9dB to allow for headroom in case there's an unexpected peak that would otherwise clip.

Edited March 17, 2005 by Artstar

[dex Otaku]

Note: for reference, the center '-' above the record meters on HiMD recorders is -12dBfs.

[jeddeth]

I pluged into the mic in...

and when I say very low I mean that with the volume turned up to 30 you could just barely make ou thtat there was a band actually playing on the recording.

I raised the volume in an audio editor and everything was fine, but I'd rather have more true sound on the actual recording and not have to manually raise the volume later.

Did I do something wrong? I had the mic plugged into the RS attenuator. The volume dial was at max. The attenuator was plugged into the mic in. I set the Rec Volume on the unit to 17/30 and that was it.

The recording was also mucho vocals and not as much instruments as I heard live.

Now I am longing for the days when my mz-r90 still recorded with out skips and glitches. Although the digital transfer is a godsend.

On another not - how do you guys stealth record without any backlight on the unit ot remote. I found it annoyingly difficult.

Thanks for everyones help!

[Featfan80]

With Line-in, using a battery box, I usually set the level to about 25. I only used 15-17 when I went Mic-in, low sensitivity.

[LowMach]

*On another not - how do you guys stealth record without any backlight on the unit ot remote. I found it annoyingly difficult.

I open my cell phone to use for a light source to check the recorder. Like I was checking for a call or something.

[jeddeth]

I find the lack of backlight increadably annoying as well, If i could buy a remote that has a backlight and is compatible with my unit I would in a second.

I was using my phone too, but then I noticed that when I pushed the button to make the light turn on it created an audio artifact on the actual recording... soooo bad!!

[Christopher]

I wasn't clear on this or not, jeddeth, but is your unit the MZ-R90? There are a few remotes out there you can purchase and employ for this unit, I believe..

[A440]

It shouldn't be so quiet you can barely hear that there's a band. I've been to Rothko and that is a boomin' system. So I have to suspect that

a) your mic is very low-sensitivity, or

b ) you somehow had the RS attenuator turned down rather than up, perhaps if it got jostled in your pocket. If you had it all the way down you'd get silence.

or c) In the dark you were somehow using line-in (white) rather than mic-in (red)

or d) your headphones aren't very loud

It's probably (a) because you say that the recording had vocals way up front. This would suggest a mic that's not picking up highs or lows. A mic like Sound Pro's BMC-2 or equivalent doesn't throw the vocals in your face, and the MD isn't adding any significant coloration to the mic signal.

Don't change the RS settings, because you'll get static when you turn the dial. It's really just there to lower the signal, and if there was a better made one with fixed attenuation I would be eager to use it.

For the light problem, there are a couple of makeshift solutions: one of those little keychain LED flashlights (get a white one, some colors blank out the MD display), a light-up pen (Staples sells them for $1.99), turn your back to the stage and do it by stagelight, or set levels outside the club (you can see if the meters are moving from traffic noise) and leave it on pause.

Or get one of those RH-10's with the cool-looking OLED display when they arrive....

[jeddeth]

First, thanks so much for everyones help... this is an awesome community!

2. I had been using a sony stereo mic (pc-62?) that came with my original recording device, a sony walkman professional recorder WM-D3. I have been using this mic with my old mini disc (the MZ-R90) for years... and I loved the results. Unfortunately the minidisc now skips when recording and I always wanted the ability of digital transfer so I upgraded to the Hi-MD NHF800.

(upon A440's advice) I bought the SP-BMC-2 Sound Professionals with Audio Technica Clips from The Sound Professionals for 29.99 (is that a good price?).

I recieved them today and preliminary testing explains everything...

the mic's you guys are using are MUCH louder (or more sensitive) than my old sony mic. My recording came out SO quiet with the attenuator and the levels manually set to 17 because the Sony Mic would have probably required the levels set in the mid 20's to achieve the same volume as the SP-BMC-2's.

I'm gonna go to a show and try this set up again with the new mic.

Regarding the loud vocals though... I never noticed it before with the same mic on my MZ-R90... are the recording elements these days totally different?

3. I'm lookign for a remote for the NHF800... too early?

4. So how do you wear your SP-BMC-2 mics? I used to put my sony mic on my lapel but the opening on these would then face up to the ceiling and I'm afraid that these are not very stealth... how do you guys do it? Do you not speak at all to anyone during a show? Pictures would be totally appreciated, is that a possibility?

Edited March 19, 2005 by jeddeth

[A440]

You got the rock-bottom price on the BMC-2's, especially if you got clips with them.

I don't know anything about your old mic, but if it came with a Walkman it probably wasn't a full-range microphone--it may have been designed for interviews and speech, which would explain the emphasis on vocals. The BMC-2's probably have a very different basic microphone pickup. I would expect that the recording on both your old and new MDs strives to reproduce whatever comes through the microphone precisely.

I use these clips:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller...u=217592&is=REG

They slip around the tapered bottoms of the SPs and hold the mics perpendicular to the clips. When I clip them to the bottom edge of a shirt collar--the clip is vertical to the floor, the mic points sideways-- they pick up to left and right like my ears, which makes good binaural recordings.

If your clips are parallel to the mics, then put them in a different spot on your shirt collar, or the lapels of your jacket, or your shoulders, or a hat. The SPs are small and black, and I hope your clips are also dark. You can slip the mic cord down a shirt, fold the cord over your top button and hide the mics under your shirt, then clip them to a (dark) shirt collar when the lights are down.

I try to talk only during applause and then edit it out. There's no mic in the world that won't pick up your conversation during a show. Or your neighbors', for that matter.

[mrsoul]

>>3. I'm lookign for a remote for the NHF800... too early?

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Try the 40ELK, I'm pretty sure it will work with the NH800 and the backlight with the recording meters displayed is about as good as you can ask for when recording in the dark. Should be able to get it for $80-100, try audiocubes, minidisco (now carrying this remote for $99), and bargaining4all.com on ebay. I can't record on my NH900 without it.

http://www.minidisco.com/rm-mc40elk.html

[jeddeth]

I guess I did get a great deal on thos mic's I just checked the site again and they are up to 39.99 now. So thanks for recommending them!

The clips I got are from Audio Technica, but they are exactly the same as the ones from the B&H photos, so I will experiment with them on my lapels and I will try to only speak or be spoken to during applause.

What about dancing? Can you move around without creating noise?

As for the remote... can anyone confirm that the Sony RM-MC40ELK will work with the NHF800? That would be a great solution if it were the case but I don't have a $100 to throw out if it's not gonna be compatible.

Or can anyone confirm if the Sony RM-MC38EL Hi-MD/MD/CD Remote Control would work... although it doesn't display the levels I believe it does have a backlight which, for half the price, would be pretty nice just to know that I am still recording, not accidentally in pause, and how much time is left on the tape....

Thanks to anyone who knows!!!!

Edited March 20, 2005 by jeddeth

[ozpeter]

At this post I've noted some results about levels which may be relevant to this thread.

At the end of the day, you've got to set the levels by the meters. In that thread I've suggested peaking two segments down from the 2nd dot to avoid clipping. Also, if to achieve that you are having to use the low sensitivity mic input at 10/30, you are probably overloading the mic input right at the outset. If you are using high sensitivity above about 20/30, you are in danger of getting excessive mic preamp hiss.

So, if your meters are hitting the penutimate segment all the time, you need to reduce the mic level. If to do that you have to go lower than (probably) 13/30 on low sensitivity, you mic is overloading the input stage, and you need an attenuator. If your meters never hit the segment two to the left of the second dot, you need to set a higher level. If you have to go above about 20 or so in high sensitivity to do that, your mic is not sensitive enough and you need to preamplify it.

Am I right?

Edited March 20, 2005 by ozpeter

[Tourist]

What about dancing? Can you move around without creating noise?

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Depends how spazz you are.

More seriously, if you keep the mic cord from moving or bumping into things, and you don't touch the mics, you should be fine.

[jeddeth]

I recorded a pretty heavy show the other night (the thermals). I spent the whole show jumping up and down and just going nuts (there was a lot of energy).

The mics really didn't pick up any extra noise because of that!