Faulty Hi-md Player Sony Uk Case No. 140981444

[Woodgnome]

I have noticed many people are having problems with the new Hi-MD players - be it data or music issues.

I have specifically noticed certain problems which are totally repeatable on my NH-900B.

After recording say a 2 minute track, and dividing it acurately into 3 tracks (the middle one being about 20 seconds). Erasing the middle track (2) and removing T-Mark between track 1 and 3 should result in a shorter track with the middle portion cut out. Been doing this kind of editing for years with normal MD.

Do it with Hi-LP - first thing is the resulting edits move - they are not in the place you put them. They can be up to 15 seconds away! So you edit it again to cut out the bit in the middle. Then the second timethe player will normally display "cannot play or record tracks" before blanking the disk. THE END (of your valuable recording) Disappointing if you've just recorded 10 hours of something important!

Repeated this now many times and lost too many valuable recordings I did over the Christmas period. We need Sony to recall these faulty players - if that is qhat it is.

I believe that they are in fact a fault of using Hi-SP or Hi-LP MODES with 1Gb or normal (80minute) MDs.

Edited February 22, 2005 by Woodgnome

[md-max]

That's deeply scary. You say it's a fault of using HiSP and HiLP modes on 1Gb discs an 80 min discs. So have you found a mode that's safe? I've not yet had problems but I've not used my player that much yet for editing...

Edited February 22, 2005 by md-max

[Woodgnome]

I got my NH-900B unit for Xmas - so did the usual download of all my CDs (via Sonic Stage 2.1) in Hi-MD format to 1G & normal minidiscs - no problems.

I also did lots of track editing and typing in names on MD-LP2 (the normal mode and the normal 80minute MD blanks) with no problems.

I also recorded my voice and music in Hi-MD (on 1G and 80m MD) - no problems.

However when track editing (on 1G & 80m MDs) in HI-MD LP mode - the track marks move around by 15 seconds once placed. Erased tracks magically re-appear. Bits of erased tracks appear at the end of other tracks, then sporadically the whole disk disappears (Cannot Read or Record). Also, when my own Hi-MD LP recordings (voice) run into these problems - Sonic Stage will not upload the tracks (not even for the one upload allowed).

This really smacks of a design fault - if anyone else can do my original test - record 2 minutes of music - remove 20 seconds in the middle by creating track marks - erase the middle track and join the two tracks together (by now removing the T-Mark) and see what happens. Just to be repeatable - use Hi-MD LP mode on a blank 80 minute MD.

I REALLY WOULD APPECIATE YOU MD EXPERTS TO CONFIRM THIS esp with NH900B model.

Reading other peoples posts - they all think the disks are faulty - quite a lot are - but I think there may be bigger problems afoot... who knows - maybe it's just a batch of players bought from amazon in December 2004.....

I have reported the fault to Sony. Watch this space and please respond.

Woodgnome

That's deeply scary. You say it's a fault of using HiSP and HiLP modes on 1Gb discs an  80 min discs. So have you found a mode that's safe? I've not yet had problems but I've not used my player that much yet for editing...

←

Edited February 22, 2005 by Woodgnome

[xispe]

I'm going to try that one later

[Woodgnome]

I would appreciate it! It takes so long to track down these faults.

I'll be using my M-750G again at this rate!

I'm going to try that one later

←

Edited February 22, 2005 by Woodgnome

[xispe]

hum... i've tried it out and everything seems to work well on my nh700.

i have a single track with a minute.

1. i've added a track mark at 10 seconds

2. added annoter track mark fro track 2 at 20 seconds.

no i have 3 tracks, the first with 10 seconds, the second with 20, and the third with 30.

All the tracks play fine and the marks are placed correctly.

After that i've erased track 2.

The behaviour was the correct. First track ends, and the previous thirds starts playing. No moving marks no disc errors...

I think you have a problem with your unit

[Woodgnome]

THEN - you must REMOVE the track mark to recombine them into one track. THAT's when the problem occurs.

...and only in Hi MD LP mode

PLEASE TRY ;-)

hum... i've tried it out and everything seems to work well on my nh700.

i have a single track with a minute.

1. i've added a track mark at 10 seconds

2. added annoter track mark fro track 2 at 20 seconds.

no i have 3 tracks, the first with 10 seconds, the second with 20, and the third with 30.

All the tracks play fine and the marks are placed correctly.

After that i've erased track 2.

The behaviour was the correct. First track ends, and the previous thirds starts playing. No moving marks no disc errors...

I think you have a problem with your unit

←

[Guest tony wong]

what the topic really talks about is real recording(from analog line in?), not digital copying from cd or transfer from pc(right?)

[Woodgnome]

Digital or analogue recording. Transferring from the PC does not allow you to add track marks afterwards (because of the Sony ultra-paranoid copying system)

Please try it - record 2 minutes - cut out a 15 second track in the middle and join tracks 1 and 3 together. If it doesn't work - it sure creates some interesting results! I need confirmation from others. Oh - it must be Hi-Md at Hi-LP (not MD-LP)

Ta

what the topic really talks about is real recording(from analog line in?), not digital copying from cd or transfer from pc(right?)

←

[Guest tony wong]

Digital or analogue recording. Transferring from the PC does not allow you to add track marks afterwards (because of the Sony ultra-paranoid copying system)

Please try it - record 2 minutes - cut out a 15 second track in the middle and join tracks 1 and 3 together.  If it doesn't work - it sure creates some interesting results! I need confirmation from others. Oh - it must be Hi-Md at Hi-LP (not MD-LP)

Ta

←

ok, if u know that's gonna be a problem and may ruin a Hi-MD disc, why still bother to encourage other people to try that trick?

[added at later times....]

well I personal do guess that's something missing from manual

I do guess it's just limitation on Hi-LP mode, may be known to engineer in Sony but just forgot to mention in manual and even( )forgot to disallow such action

anyway, other people should not try this trick

1. if it's ur player or disc problem, it won't be likely to happen in other people disc or player

2. if yes it is a bug, if anyone try to try that as well, he may also ruin his Hi-MD disc

more guess.....

Hi-LP seems only a way for storing music

personally I do think if u r doing professional recording editing, u should do it with higher bits recording(Hi-SP)

I do think even engineer may have skipped this procedure to record in Hi-LP and then edit for a few times on the track

a more reasonable way to do this may be just upload the music to pc and edit at pc side

then download to the unit again

Edited February 22, 2005 by tony wong

[Guest tony wong]

the only things on a Hi-MD mode recoding that can use T mark seems only analog recording or digital recording from other digital playback unit

[Woodgnome]

Tony,

please don't become utra paranoid (like Sony)

My little "test" to shoe a "bug" doesn't ruin anything... well except the 2 minutes you will have recorded for the test.

the only things on a Hi-MD mode recoding that can use T mark seems only analog recording or digital recording from other digital playback unit

←

[xispe]

IT'S A BUG! IT'S A BUG! DAMN! lol This thing rocks!

ok.. after combining back tracks 1 and 3 , the resulting track was a total mess.

THIS SUCKS!

[Guest tony wong]

Tony,

please don't become utra paranoid (like Sony)

My little "test" to shoe a "bug" doesn't ruin anything... well except the 2 minutes you will have recorded for the test.

←

well, I am not sure for that

(on "won't ruin anything")

regarding the fact on preciously ur steps is.....

it seems to me that u know much more about Hi-MD than we do think u did

and, what I am trying to say is : the design of any product will be objected to usual/normal use mainly

regarding the facts :

recording in Hi-LP

divide track to 10/20 secs

seems not an usual practise on using Hi-LP

anyway, editing sound on a pc is highly recommended

[Guest tony wong]

IT'S A BUG! IT'S A BUG! DAMN! lol This thing rocks!

ok.. after combining back tracks 1 and 3 , the resulting track was a total mess.

THIS SUCKS!

←

don't get funny

remember Hi-MD is just a new product

any bug like this kind MAY RUIN ur player or disc

which can be due to software or hardware problem

[xispe]

I'm finding Hi-MD as new technology, and i soooooooooo happy with it that i don't even care if this test ruins my player or my discs. lol

who cares!?

[Woodgnome]

Thankyou so much for confirming my results (albiet on a different model numbered unit) Xpsie

Confirming:-

WE SUSPECT THAT ALL HI-MD (1st Generation units) i.e. 600, 800, 900, 1 etc HAVE A PRETTY SERIOUS BUG.

USERS MAY BE SUSPECTING FAUTLY BLANK DISCS AS THE PROBLEM - BUT BE CAREFUL - THERE ARE PLENTY OF FAULTY DISCS OUT THERE AS WELL - and in fact the fault might be endemic to the players themselves!

Quite simply - a standard feature of minidisc is T-Mark (or track marking). It is often used, for example, to remove a DJ's voice from a radio recording to leave just the music.

With various Hi-MD players (in Hi-LP mode) - after a track is marked and erased -

1) the track mark moved (BUG)

2) the erased section becomes unerased (BUG)

3) and after a few retries the entire disk is normally blanked (BUG)

You can see earlier threads to test your unit - and please post your results.

TEST RECAP

Record 2 minutes of analogue/digital recording on a Hi-MD in HI-LP. Mark a 20sec track in the middle section (track 2) - erase this track and remove the Track Mark (T-Mark) to join tracks 1 and 3 together. BANG!!!

Please be aware that this causes no damage to your player or disk - but it does indicate that ALL players are in fact FAULTY???? Watch this space - maybe they will all be recalled...

Personally - I can't use mine without this feature.

Woodgnome

IT'S A BUG! IT'S A BUG! DAMN! lol This thing rocks!

ok.. after combining back tracks 1 and 3 , the resulting track was a total mess.

THIS SUCKS!

←

Edited February 23, 2005 by Woodgnome

[Dinko]

Tried it.

HiSP mode worked fine on an 80-min MD in HiMD mode.

In HiLP, about 14 seconds from the deleted track came back.

When I cut up a 00:02:01 track in three parts, portions of the deleted track returned.

After the first edit (cutting), track 1 ended at 59 seconds. Track 2 ran 22 seconds. Track 3 was the rest.

Track 2 was then erased.

Tracks 1 & 3 were combined at the 1min 13 seconds mark instead of the 59 seconds mark.

I did it on a MZ-NH700 using a Sony colour collection 80-min disc in Hi-MD mode. Recorded in analog.

Edited February 23, 2005 by Dinko

[Woodgnome]

Thank you very much Dinko - I really appreciate your and everyone elses help.

There are now three of us that have repeated this fault - I am fairly satisfied it is a bug - rendering editing unusuable and unreliable on Hi-MD LP.

The only work around appears to do recordings in the normal MD-LP2. Although why have we all spent loads of money on players with new features that don't work????? Still no response from Sony - but I will post it here - however long it takes!!

I am reverting to my MZ-750G for recording - and will only use my NH900B for listening to my sonic stage discs. Coicidentally - the older player (with BASS boost and not the V-Acoustic Engine) actually does sound better than the new one.

I really wish I hadn't wasted my money on the new format until all these bugs have been ironed out. You never get any compensation for all the time, effort and heartache (with lost recordings)...

P.S. For Dinko - If you edit your now partly scrambled disc - the player will eventually report "unabale to play and record on disc" before blanking the entire disc (which is why I suggested using a blank!)

COME ON SONY - IT REALLY IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. Although 1st generation i-pod's sealed in recarcheable batteries went dud after 12 months and 3 days The user then had to pay £70 to change it It's all a conspiricy!!!!

Why does the consumer have to suffer for products that are not properly tested???

Woodgnome

Tried it.

HiSP mode worked fine on an 80-min MD in HiMD mode.

In HiLP, about 14 seconds from the deleted track came back.

When I cut up a 00:02:01 track in three parts, portions of the deleted track returned.

After the first edit (cutting), track 1 ended at 59 seconds. Track 2 ran 22 seconds.  Track 3 was the rest.

Track 2 was then erased.

Tracks 1 & 3 were combined at the 1min 13 seconds mark instead of the 59 seconds mark.

I did it on a MZ-NH700 using a Sony colour collection 80-min disc in Hi-MD mode. Recorded in analog.

←

Edited February 23, 2005 by Woodgnome

[jadeclaw]

Same problem here.

Mine resurrects five seconds of the unwanted track.

Track was exactly two minutes, cut points at 1:00 and 1:20.

[EDIT]

In Hi-SP as well, here it resurrects two seconds.

After trying to remove the resurrected stuff,

part of that came back again.

Methinks, there is a problem with the resolution/minimum track length.

I hope, the new recorders fix that problem.

[EDIT2]

I tried LinearPCM as well, here it got messed up completely.

The unwanted track was there in full length

and there were 20 seconds missing from the end.

However, after popping out the disc and putting it back in,

everything was exactly how i edited it.

Retried Hi-SP, it messed it up as well,

disc out and back in - everything was as it should be.

Hmm, methinks, the playback side gets confused, while the TOC itself stays intact.

[EDIT3]

Retried Hi-LP again, of course, the recorder messed it up completely again,

disc out and back in, the five second problem from the first test stayed.

[Conclusion]

Hi-LP-editing is defective.

The playback function has a serious problem as well,

looks like some pointers/data fields don't get completely updated after editing.

[Postscriptum]

Just for fun, I tried Standard (NetMD) mode as well, no problems at all.

Nothing messed up, all editpoints ended up, where I placed them.

Regardless, if it was SP,LP2 or LP4.

Now I'm tired. I'm going to bed. Goodnight.

[dex Otaku]

I haven't encountered this as I never do editing on the units themselves. Record, dump the recording, erase the disc while doing everything else with the PC.

Sad to see that this is the case.

[Woodgnome]

Well done Jade Claw, that is now 4 confirmed cases.

Can you believe Sony can let their product get to market place with major faults like this?!

Woodgnome

Same problem here.

Mine resurrects five seconds of the unwanted track.

Track was exactly two minutes, cut points at 1:00 and 1:20.

[EDIT]

In Hi-SP as well, here it resurrects two seconds.

After trying to remove the resurrected stuff,

part of that came back again.

Methinks, there is a problem with the resolution/minimum track length.

I hope, the new recorders fix that problem.

[EDIT2]

I tried LinearPCM as well, here it got messed up completely.

The unwanted track was there in full length

and there were 20 seconds missing from the end.

However, after popping out the disc and putting it back in,

everything was exactly how i edited it.

Retried Hi-SP, it messed it up as well,

disc out and back in - everything was as it should be.

Hmm, methinks, the playback side gets confused, while the TOC itself stays intact.

[EDIT3]

Retried Hi-LP again, of course, the recorder messed it up completely again,

disc out and back in, the five second problem from the first test stayed.

[Conclusion]

Hi-LP-editing is defective.

The playback function has a serious problem as well,

looks like some pointers/data fields don't get completely updated after editing.

[Postscriptum]

Just for fun, I tried Standard (NetMD) mode as well, no problems at all.

Nothing messed up, all editpoints ended up, where I placed them.

Regardless, if it was SP,LP2 or LP4.

Now I'm tired. I'm going to bed. Goodnight.

←

[xispe]

ahahahah we have major faults!

[streaml1ne]

What if after erasing the middle track you move the end track (once 3rd, now 2nd) to another group?

[jadeclaw]

What if after erasing the middle track you move the end track (once 3rd, now 2nd) to another group?

←

Point is, everything is fine - until you remove the trackmark between the remaining parts, so moving the remaining parts to different groups should be no problem.

[Woodgnome]

It has now been 8 days - despite numerous calls the reported error is "with Engineers" at Sony.

I suppose Sony don't mind me "ringing back" as they make about £1.50 a call

I am slightly perturbed that this major bug with all Hi-MD players - whilst doing simple editing / track marking / erasing hasn't caused more of an uproar!!!

However - before I jump to any further conclusions - it is only 5 models (all over the world) that exhibit this problem!!!!

Although - if you don't use your Hi-Md to record then edit / track mark / erase - why didn't y'all buy an ipod???!!!! I mean - that's what MD is all about isn't it?

ahahahah we have major faults!

←

Edited March 3, 2005 by Woodgnome

[jadeclaw]

It has now been 8 days - despite numerous calls the reported error is "with Engineers" at Sony.

That's normal, Sony Germany never called me back, when I inquired about the upload thrashing problem, a later SS-version fixed it.

However - before I jump to any further conclusions - it is only 5 models (all over the world) that exhibit this problem!!!!

My guess is, that all NH700/900 exhibit this problem.

However, it seems, that the bug exhibits itself only under certain conditions AND in HiLP, which almost noone uses for recording.

I never used HiLP for any recording, except to transfer a Morse course from cassette tape.

That way, I never knew about it until now.

[marcnet]

Although - if you don't use your Hi-Md to record then edit / track mark / erase - why didn't y'all buy an ipod???!!!! I mean - that's what MD is all about isn't it?

I bought my MZ-NH1 for music playback as its primary use. Removable durable media is better than fragile static harddisk in my opinion. Plus the MZ-NH1 is smaller. Also, does the Ipod have EQ or bass/trebble adjustment?

[S_732]

Interesting problem.. wonder if the second gen will have that weened out..

has anyone tried recordint the track, pting in tmarks deleting the midle track then switching off the player switching it back on and trying to merge the 1st and 3rd tracks?

[Michael1980]

It has now been 8 days - despite numerous calls the reported error is "with Engineers" at Sony.

I suppose Sony don't mind me "ringing back" as they make about £1.50 a call 

I am slightly perturbed that this major bug with all Hi-MD players - whilst doing simple editing / track marking / erasing hasn't caused more of an uproar!!!

However - before I jump to any further conclusions - it is only 5 models (all over the world) that exhibit this problem!!!!

Although - if you don't use your Hi-Md to record then edit / track mark / erase - why didn't y'all buy an ipod???!!!! I mean - that's what MD is all about isn't it?

←

Not many people use HiLP mode, what is the point of it?

Still though, hope this bug gets worked out.

[dex Otaku]

When recording I use my NH700 [and have used all previous MDs I've borrowed or rented] only for the initial recording and then playback/dumping the "footage".

I never edit on the units, never title on the units, &c. While I find the possibility useful, I have never actually used any of the editing features except for inserting/deleting trackmarks post-recording, and that was a long time ago, before I was using HiMD.

This is not to say that I find the features useless or anything. If anything, their presence is part of what attracts me to the format, even if I don't use them.

The simple truth is that I have never encountered a need to use the editing features.

This is largely because of how I record and edit, though - in single, large chunks, with all editing done in software after the tracks have been erased from their original disc.

I do not keep original recordings on their original discs. In fact, I consider the contents of every disc I own to be no more than temporary.

For these reasons, and because I never record in HiLP, I would never encounter the problem you have discovered.

[Philgood]

Just want to add my experience on my 900 unit.

I followed the instructions and got similiar errors in all Hi-MD recording modes.Although the deleted 2. track didn't re-appeared there were some added duration after merging the 1. and 3. progressivly rising through the different rec.-modes starting from PCM down to Hi-LP.

Although i will send SONY a mail i'm thinking that there are always certain risks of such kinds of bugs buying first generation electronic devices. The rumour(?) that SONY took off all 1st gen. MD's from market and the fact of the personnel change in SONY's management has to stay us alarmed anyway. At least we can demand a firmware solution, right ? or will any firmware updater offer too much in-depth look at the structure of their devices for potential hacks ?

Phil

[Woodgnome]

I have tried posting a seperate thread on this site - noting that the units are no longer for sale after 3 months at my Sony shop.

Although I received no warning from the moderators the thread has been removed. I thought this was an open forum - but maybe it is run by Sony.

Surely it is in all our best interests to know if we are being scammed with faulty units?

[Michael1980]

I have seen them on sale in many shops.

[LupinIV]

Woodgnome!!

I confirm your finding too on my NHF800!!!

For a while I thought I was doing somothing wrong while editiong small recordings from college lectures while in class.

This is one of the main application for my HIMD, recording lectures and listen them back while I drive back home. I tend to edit some tracks to eliminate long silence or useless parts.

IT NEVER WORKED RIGHT AN NOW I KNOW WHY!!!!

SONY: Be honest for ones, and give us a free fix to this mess!!!!!!

Thanks Woodgnome!!!!

[jadeclaw]

I have tried posting a seperate thread on this site - noting that the units are no longer for sale after 3 months at my Sony shop.

Although I received no warning from the moderators the thread has been removed. I thought this was an open forum - but maybe it is run by Sony.

Surely it is in all our best interests to know if we are being scammed with faulty units?

←

You mean this thread?

It is still there.

[LupinIV]

Guys,

I could not believe my own first try so I just tryed it and I can absolutely reconfirm it:

1st try:

-Original track 2min 30sec

-Replay, mark at 1 min, then mark at 30sec (3 tracks now: 1min, 30sec,1min)

-pause and back to 1st mark (beginning of track 2)

-while still in pause, delete track 2

- now only 2 tracks (1st 1min and last 1 min) should be there for a total of 2 min.

- while still in pause, remove track 2 mark to join the 2 minutes together

- THERE YOU GO!!! After SYSTEM updates: 2:09 seconds!!!!!

2nd try

- I decided to cut 30 second more from the same screwed 2:09

- same procedure

- My math 2:09 - 30 sec = 1:39

-SONY's math: 2:09 - 30 sec = 2:04!!!!!

THIS IS CRAZY!!!!!

Please, Woodgnome, let me know how and who to send this unit back!!!!

Cheers

to minidisc.org: this should be a sticky!!!!!

-

Edited March 27, 2005 by LupinIV

[Philgood]

I couldn't have discribed it better LupinIV. It's the same with my silver MZ-NH900.

@ woodygnome

please let us know your progresses with mailing sony !

[Guest NRen2k5]

Woodgnome!!

I confirm your finding too on my NHF800!!!

For a while I thought I was doing somothing wrong while editiong small recordings from college lectures while in class.

This is one of the main application for my HIMD, recording lectures and listen them back while I drive back home. I tend to edit some tracks to eliminate long silence or useless parts.

IT NEVER WORKED RIGHT AN NOW I KNOW WHY!!!!

SONY: Be honest for ones, and give us a free fix to this mess!!!!!!

Thanks Woodgnome!!!!

←

Well don't worry too much. Just initialize your MD's in MD mode rather than Hi-MD mode and use LP4 instead of Hi-LP. The sond quality will be about the same. Okay, you'll lose some capacity since Hi-MD is 300MB and standard MD is 170MB but that's not such a big deal with the low cost of MD80 discs.

Additional post:

Yes, this is a distressing bug, but at least it doesn't affect the old MD modes.

I think, take this and factor in that SonicStage's ATRAC3 encoder sucks but its ATRAC3plus encoder is now surpassing the units' built-in encoder in quality... and we can safely say that:

You should stick with MD for field recording and use Hi-MD only for CD's/MP3's.

Edited March 27, 2005 by NRen2k5

[LupinIV]

1) Well don't worry too much. Just initialize your MD's in MD mode ....

rather than Hi-MD mode and use LP4 instead of Hi-LP.

2) The sond quality will be about the same.

3) Okay, you'll lose some capacity since Hi-MD is 300MB and standard MD is 170MB but that's

4) not such a big deal with the low cost of MD80 discs.

5) You should stick with MD for field recording and use Hi-MD only for CD's/MP3's.

←

1) If I wanted MD I would have bought an MD (way cheaper) as for the other people who decided to invest money in new technology

2) Maybe to you. But I still believe that "windows effect" (try rebooting and good luck) should not apply to hi-end technologies, especially hardware

3) Some capacity? about 8 hours!!!!

4) I will send my address so you can provide with cheap MD's

5) Again, I would have kept my old MD

I guess the point is not clear here. Woodgnome found a glitch in the simpliest of the recorders functions, and everybody is just going over it as nothing.

Well, next time somebody buys a car, and the car can only turn right, I will inform them that is not a big deal, since the car can still turn left. After all, if you keep going in circles, you go back where you started.

I hope I can get my HIMD fixed. If eveybody participate, maybe WE WILL end up getting better products in the future.

If we accept the situation, we'll just make SONY more money, and we will continue to get crap.

Next time you will complain SONY will replay:

"Sorry, it was OK for you last time...."

And this is it.