The Price Of Md/himd Versus Hdd Players

[lamewing]

Hey folks,

I have been checking out prices of MD/HiMD units lately after giving up on my old iPod. I have been looking at a higher end MD/HiMD unit or even another HDD unit like the NW-HD1 from Sony.

After much searcing I am a bit confused as to why the MD units are price so very expensive compared to HDD players. The DR77 is over $300.00 anywhere and it is only MDLP. The HiMD are rather pricey too; for the units I would want, compared to the H1 or an iPod, or other HDD.

Can someone with more knowledge than myself elaborate on why the cost of MD is so high in comparison to the HDD units? It seems that getting new converts to MD/HiMD would be difficult with the price of HDD units being equal or cheaper. I am not ranting, but instead just curious as to what is going on with the MD/HiMD business model.

Thanks dudes.

Joe

[bug80]

It is hard to compare prices, because we're talking about two different kinds of hardware. The 2nd generation Hi-MD units are in the same price range as HDD players (MZ-RH910: €199, iPod mini 4 GB: €199). However, I think MD units have more bang for the buck in terms of:

* Sound quality (amplifier)

* Storage (virtually unlimited because of discs instead of fixed HD)

* Recording possibilities (this is where MD really shines)

Lowering the prices on 2nd generation units is a good move from Sony, IMHO.

Edited April 7, 2005 by bug80

[matrulesok]

It is hard to compare prices, because we're talking about two different kinds of hardware. The 2nd generation Hi-MD units are in the same price range as HDD players (MZ-RH910: €199, iPod mini 4 GB: €199). However, I think MD units have more bang for the buck in terms of:

* Sound quality (amplifier)

* Storage (virtually unlimited because of discs instead of fixed HD)

* Recording possibilities (this is where MD really shines)

Lowering the prices on 2nd generation units is a good move from Sony, IMHO.

←

plus

* Durability (If one disc breaks, so what. If your hard disc breaks...)

* Battery life (You can run most md's from aa batteries, great for long trips and holidays)

By contrast , the only advantages of a hdd player (that currently spring to mind) are:

* Convenience (all songs in one place - but it must be bigger than 4gb, which raises the price)

* Drag and drop

Edited April 7, 2005 by matrulesok

[shady101]

and HDDs are a smaller than mds

[hobgoblin]

that realy depends. and the smaller a hdd drive becomes, the less storage i have. but if your comparing storage of one hdd (like say a ipod mini) with a hi-md in combo with the equivalent storage in hi-md disks then the bulk of disks is bigger, yes...

[lamewing]

plus

* Durability (If one disc breaks, so what. If your hard disc breaks...)

* Battery life (You can run most md's from aa batteries, great for long trips and holidays)

By contrast , the only advantages of a hdd player (that currently spring to mind) are:

* Convenience (all songs in one place - but it must be bigger than 4gb, which raises the price)

* Drag and drop

←

I can agree with the battery issue, no problem. BUT the HDD failure argument really doesn't hold water, You mention the HDD can fail, sure, but so can the minidisc optical block.

In the case of a HDD failure, you still have your music on your PC, right? Also, you have it on CD as well? After replacing the HDD unit, just recopy the music to the player.

In the case of an optical block failure, you have the music on your PC and still on the discs themselves, but no way to carry them around without replacing the unit. No different than having to replace the HDD unit and reloading the songs from the PC (as above).

Overall, I see no advantage of the minidisc, other than recording in realtime, that would even allow the MD units to cost close to the same as a HDD unit.

Don't get me wrong, MD is nice, but for a new, potential customer, there really isn't much of a reasonf for the extra cost of a MD recorder when compared to a HDD unit. With the state of the market now, IF the customer decides on a HDD unit, they most probably will buy an iPod, simply due to brand recognition.

Speaking of brand recognition. No matter what someone might say about the Apple iPod's quality, you HAVE to give Apple credit on something so simple...yet something the other companies (ESP. Sony) haven't really hit on. A SIMPLE NAME. Really, which are you going to remember? The name iPod or NW-HD1?

[A440]

Minidisc is for recording. If you're just a passive music consumer, HDD's are better.

That said, if you pick up a NH600D for $75 or less, as you can nowadays on eBay, that unit and four $7 Hi-MD 1Gb discs can hold as much music as an Ipod Mini for half the price. If you find an NH-600, you can even do some realtime line-in recordings. And you don't have to worry about your rechargeable battery going dead since it takes a nice replaceable AA.

[Christopher]

Hi-MD is adventageous in the budget area amongst flash players and the like, but it seems as if it's not known well enough for it's recording capability [Hence why the gallery will host live recordings soon. ]. Then we travel further down the spiral of nicheness by introducing odd units like the DH10P, etc, now ever-changing compatibility and other randomness. So people come here and read our esoteric topics of "do this, do that" or "Sonicstage is a nightmare of inane proportions" and it can all be very confusing.

Then you have HDD players which are simply drag and drop or some extremely simpleton endeavor.

I say Hi-MD is for you if you have the time to learn the stuff we talk about and spend too much of our time on, because it is worth it for it's unique abilities; then again it's severely too odd to be a true winner amongst everything considered. Hi-MD isn't that bad, it is sorta not properly portrayed here and often the negative stuff overpopulates the good.

I say go for it, you're here already posting this question, so you're looking for a reason. Take a leap, there's always a receipt..

[shady101]

It is hard to compare prices, because we're talking about two different kinds of hardware. The 2nd generation Hi-MD units are in the same price range as HDD players (MZ-RH910: €199, iPod mini 4 GB: €199). However, I think MD units have more bang for the buck in terms of:

* Sound quality (amplifier)

* Storage (virtually unlimited because of discs instead of fixed HD)

* Recording possibilities (this is where MD really shines)

Lowering the prices on 2nd generation units is a good move from Sony, IMHO.

←

plus

* Durability (If one disc breaks, so what. If your hard disc breaks...)

* Battery life (You can run most md's from aa batteries, great for long trips and holidays)

By contrast , the only advantages of a hdd player (that currently spring to mind) are:

* Convenience (all songs in one place - but it must be bigger than 4gb, which raises the price)

* Drag and drop

←

umm. i'd say HDD players have more bang for the buck:

ipod mini:

large LCD screen with backlight (expensive)

4 gig hard drive (expensive)

Li-ion battery (expensive)

aluminum body (expensive)

MZ-RH910:

2 line lcd no backlight (cheap)

1 gig hi-md (cheap)

NIMH battery (cheapest in its kind)

plastic body (cheap)

but i'd say that hi-mds have more advantages for the buck:

durability

battery life

sound

recording

unlimited memory

so the dicision is up 2 u

p.s. i DONT like ipod at all

[mmp64]

umm. i'd say HDD players have more bang for the buck:

ipod mini:

large LCD screen with backlight (expensive)

4 gig hard drive (expensive)

Li-ion battery (expensive)

aluminum body (expensive)

MZ-RH910:

2 line lcd no backlight (cheap)

1 gig hi-md (cheap)

NIMH battery (cheapest in its kind)

plastic body (cheap)

but i'd say that hi-mds have more advantages for the buck:

durability

battery life

sound

recording

unlimited memory

so the dicision is up 2 u

p.s. i DONT like ipod at all

←

I have both - and have found myself drawn back to MD because of sound, (MZ0NH900 vs. NW-HD1) and because my library easily exceeds 20 GB even at LP2 - so the general lameness of SonicStage makes managing music on the HD unit tedious. Not as much of an issue when making 1 GB (or smaller) discs.

[lamewing]

Kurisu,

I have use MD before and up til last fall was happy with it. I sold my DR7 to buy an iPod because of the extra storage. The iPod went away (it was used anyway) and I bought another Auvi DR7. Unfortunetly it arrived broken, without the ability to record, so it went back to Japan. That was when I tried NetMD with a Sony unit...810 or something like that (a downloader only). It had issues, so I backed off of MD for a while and bought another used iPod (2nd gen). I then tried the NH600D and at first it was nice, but there is something about the Sony's sound that gives me a major headache. I have used LP2 for 2 years with no issues, but every Sony HiMD unit has driven a spike into my head.

I have a NW-HD1 on order from Crutchfield. I figue I would give it a shot. If it does the same thing I will be forced to go back to an Auvi unit or an iPod unit again (just love the ease of iTunes).

Has anyone else had issues with the sound from the HiMD units?

[mmp64]

Has anyone else had issues with the sound from the HiMD units?

←

[Christopher]

Same as mmp64, minus the experience with HDD units. What headphones were you using, lame?

[bland10000]

Sony's sound that gives me a major headache. I have used LP2 for 2 years with no issues, but every Sony HiMD unit has driven a spike into my head.

I remember your thread about that at t-board. I'm curious to hear how you fare with the Sony hd unit. And keep in mind that a Sharp hi-md may be on the horizon.

[lamewing]

I remember your thread about that at t-board.  I'm curious to hear how you fare with the Sony hd unit.  And keep in mind that a Sharp hi-md may be on the horizon.

←

Not much luck with the Sony units...all give me a headache. I have tried the EQ to no avail (at least it works, unlike the iPod). I am going to try the HD1 this week. The iPod causes me no issues. Neither did the Auvi units. Maybe Sharp will come thru.

[mmp64]

Not much luck with the Sony units...all give me a headache. I have tried the EQ to no avail (at least it works, unlike the iPod). I am going to try the HD1 this week. The iPod causes me no issues. Neither did the Auvi units. Maybe Sharp will come thru.

←

You've probably said this somewhere else - but what Codec are you using - and what is your source (i.e., MP3, CD, etc. etc.).

[lamewing]

You've probably said this somewhere else - but what Codec are you using - and what is your source (i.e., MP3, CD, etc. etc.).

←

LP2 and Hi-SP are the dodecs. I have used LP2 and SP previously with my earlier Sony units (non HiMD - R900 and R909) with no issues. These were recorded with a Sony CD/MD deck and NOT Sonic Stage. Could this be the culprit? The source is the same when using the iPod, the Auvi (and old Sony units) or the HiMD units; CDs copied off the deck or using Sonic Stage.

[mmp64]

LP2 and Hi-SP are the dodecs. I have used LP2 and SP previously with my earlier Sony units (non HiMD - R900 and R909) with no issues. These were recorded with a Sony CD/MD deck and NOT Sonic Stage. Could this be the culprit? The source is the same when using the iPod, the Auvi (and old Sony units) or the HiMD units; CDs copied off the deck or using Sonic Stage.

←

Could be. Many people feel that real-time recording is superior to SonicStage. Have you tried a HiMD unit with a High-Def Digital Amp (MZ-NH900, MZ-NH1)?

[Guest NRen2k5]

I think it's a little premature to talk about the pricing and availability of the RH-series MiniDisc recorders, before they've even hit the shelves.

[lamewing]

Could be.  Many people feel that real-time recording is superior to SonicStage.  Have you tried a HiMD unit with a High-Def Digital Amp (MZ-NH900, MZ-NH1)?

←

I have used a NH900 - same headace. I haven't tried the NH1 model yet, but they have the same amp, don't they?

Joe

[Nadav]

The comparison between iPOD and HI-MD is totally irrelevant. Instead, why not compare the HI-MD to an HDMP3 player that RECORDS, like the iRiver H320 (www.iriveramerica.com)?

I'm in a really tough dilemma about which machine I should buy - the sony 910 or the iriver 320. Can you guys help me answering those questions:

1. I have a sony condenser T-mic that I used on an old Minidisc machine. Will it work only on sony minidiscs (the only machines that give plug-in-power to the mic) or on the iRiver too?

2. the sony "Sonicstage" software works only on PC!!!!! No mac support!!!!!!!!!! My main usage is microphone recording. Is there another way to transfer the recorded files into the computer without using sonicstage, since I have a Mac?

Having those two questions answered, my choice would be a lot easier. Unless the answer to the two questions is No, which means there's no descent machine in the universe that could fit my needs!

[lamewing]

The comparison between iPOD and HI-MD is totally irrelevant. Instead, why not compare the HI-MD to an HDMP3 player that RECORDS, like the iRiver H320 (www.iriveramerica.com)?

HOW do you come to the conclusion that the iPod and HiMD cannot be compared? I mentioned that the iPod and Auvi units don't give me a headache, while the Sony HiMD (not the MDLP Sony models) do. I also mentioned the iPod vs. HiMD in comparison in price, yes. Why? Because, overall, recording isn't a major concern to the the majority of the population. Sorry, it just isn't. If Sony was only marketing towards the folks who need reoording capabilities then why make players and downloaders? Also, I can look at the the (japan only) HiMD downloader and HiMD player which cost just about the same as the NH1 recorder.

All in all, Sony needs to understand that most folks just want a player and that the player (if it records, that is cool too) must compete with the Apple iPods (especially) the minis. When I say compete I mean compete in price AND in mindshare.

How can they do this?

1. Keep recording capabilities, in ALL models; no downloaders. (but don't try and sell it at a premium).

2. RECONSIDER the cost cutting of a cheap plastic case. I remember that my MZ-R70 was solid aluminum and felt very sturdy. While the plastic devices may be just as useful, they don't "feel" as if they are worth the money. Remember, we are selling to the general public here.

3. Stop cutting abilities out of the North American units (Kanji/Kana support), both in the units and Sonic Stage. What is the advantage of taking out east asian support? It just drives folks to buy imports.

4. Provide us with all the same accessories....remotes, cradles, etc.

5. How about providing units with true ease of use? I SO MISS the simple jog wheel on my R909 and the jog levers on my R900 models. WHY SONY, WHY did you add those hard to use circular jog weels to the front of the HiMD units? Simply to give them and iPod appearance? Silliness.

6. How about backlighting on ALL UNITS.

7. How about SIMPLE NAMES? iPod versus MZ-N??, MZ-NH??, etc, etc.They need a name that focuses peoples' attention on the product. ie. Sony HiMD Walkman Recorder or Playerr. Even the other compainies are trying to do this....like the Kharma, Carbon, etc. BUT, Apple has a serious advantage in their naming scheme...they ALL are iPods, with simple variation. Ipod mini.. Ipod. Ipod Photo. The capacity is irrelevant to the name, that merely informs the buyer of the total HDD capacity. Sony screwed this up also with their newwork walkmans...NW-HD1/3/5. Come on how many folks know what that is? BUT folks know what a Sony PSP is!!!

8. Also, give us common usuability on the units. What do I mean? To load files on the HiMD I have to use Sonic Stage...period. To load files on the PSP, I can choose to use Sonic Stage to add ATRAC/plus files, or I can just drag and drop the mp3s. Why force DRM on my mp3s on the MD, but not on the PSP? SONY NEEDS to do what Apple did, only better, keep the DRM on the online purchased files, okay, but don't restrict us with Sonic Stage DRM. I had so hoped we would have true drag and drop support on version 2 of the HiMD. I really cannot understand how Sony cannot SEE how much they are hurting themselves.

9. Provide NATIVE OSX support. What the heck is Sony doing cutting off potential buyers? It instantly alienates all Mac Users who simply want to be able to play music. Oh and it stops all those Mac Users who want to upload files recorded on the HiMD units.

All this said. I like the iPod. I DON'T like the short battery life or the lack of removeable battery. NO OTHER unit has the ease of use as the iPod and I don't think anyone ever will. Instead of trying to do better than that wonderfully simple UI, GIVE US a product with BETTER features; inline recording on the NW-HD* models (like a MD unit), stop the restrictions placed on the buyers. Make us WANT to own a MD or Sony HDD unit.

I could go on, but I am just (as my wife says...) bramblimg....

[Dinko]

In the case of a HDD failure, you still have your music on your PC, right? Also, you have it on CD as well? After replacing the HDD unit, just recopy the music to the player.

Can't speak for other people, but...

I for one refuse to keep 20GB of music on my hard drive just in case my portable player dies. It's a complete and total waste of space.

As for having the CDs... sure I have them. And it took me a week burning CDs to my PC just so I could transfer them to a 20GB portable. I'd much rather just buy another MD unit and play the discs I have, than buy another HDD player and spend another week transfering CDs.

Then of course the HDD player is inherently limited. I have 30 GB of radio recordings. That needs two 20GB players. I'll soon pass the 40GB line. What then? A third HDD player? I think not.

HDD players are good if you don't have more than 20GB worth of music (whichever bit rate you use), which I suspect is the majority of the population. The moment you exceed 20GB, MDs are better. If you have 25 GB, you're better off with HiMD adding discs as your needs require.

On the other hand, if you have very little music, you're still better off with HiMD. Why pay for the 17 GB you'll never use? When you get more music, just get more discs.

Most HDD players couldn't last for more than 12 hours on one battery charge. Since a HiMD disc can contain 16 hours at LP2, and the minidisc battery lasts longer than the HDD battery, you get more music and you get to listen to it for longer than on the HDD player. You can have 20000 songs on your HDD. What's the use if you can only listen to 180 of them at any given time?

I don't see many advantages of HDD players over HiMD other than a small size.

Truth be told, I'd much rather get rid of both MD and HDD and move to flash cards. Except those don't make any sense right now. At current price levels, I can get 13 HiMD discs for the price of one 1GB SD card or MemoryStick. Of course 13 HiMD discs would be much bulkier than 13 flash cards, but then given the price gap, I'll gladly put up with the extra size.

Stuff like this excites me more than either the MZRH10 or the next generation of

i(Video?)Pods: http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/topstory/000792

Flash cards... all the advantages of minidisc, but even smaller. Take your flash card anywhere. PC > Portable Player > Home Stereo > car > digital camera > TV > fax/printer ...

[lamewing]

Can't speak for other people, but...

I for one refuse to keep 20GB of music on my hard drive just in case my portable player dies. It's a complete and total waste of space.

As for having the CDs... sure I have them. And it took me a week burning CDs to my PC just so I could transfer them to a 20GB portable. I'd much rather just buy another MD unit and play the discs I have, than buy another HDD player and spend another week transfering CDs.

Then of course the HDD player is inherently limited. I have 30 GB of radio recordings. That needs two 20GB players. I'll soon pass the 40GB line. What then? A third HDD player? I think not.

HDD players are good if you don't have more than 20GB worth of music (whichever bit rate you use), which I suspect is the majority of the population. The moment you exceed 20GB, MDs are better. If you have 25 GB, you're better off with HiMD adding discs as your needs require.

On the other hand, if you have very little music, you're still better off with HiMD. Why pay for the 17 GB you'll never use? When you get more music, just get more discs.

Most HDD players couldn't last for more than 12 hours on one battery charge. Since a HiMD disc can contain 16 hours at LP2, and the minidisc battery lasts longer than the HDD battery, you get more music and you get to listen to it for longer than on the HDD player. You can have 20000 songs on your HDD. What's the use if you can only listen to 180 of them at any given time?

I don't see many advantages of HDD players over HiMD other than a small size.

Truth be told, I'd much rather get rid of both MD and HDD and move to flash cards. Except those don't make any sense right now. At current price levels, I can get 13 HiMD discs for the price of one 1GB SD card or MemoryStick. Of course 13 HiMD discs would be much bulkier than 13 flash cards, but then given the price gap, I'll gladly put up with the extra size.

Stuff like this excites me more than either the MZRH10 or the next generation of

i(Video?)Pods: http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/topstory/000792

Flash cards... all the advantages of minidisc, but even smaller. Take your flash card anywhere. PC > Portable Player > Home Stereo > car > digital camera > TV > fax/printer ...

←

Hmmm, I guess you have a different outlook than most folks (HDD users) have. Most folks keep their music on the Hard Drives and then either transfer the entire library to the HDD player or just move portions depending on mood. With firewire or USB 2.0 this takes no time at all.

I just sent my NH900 back for a refund (non U.S. warranty worried me) and until the NW-HD1 arrives on Wed. (which has about 25 - 30 hours battery life) I will just use my PSP. I only have 1GB of space on the PSP, but I just transfer the music I want to it every day or two.

I agree with you that once flash becomes affordable (not necessarily cheap) to me...at least so I only have to sell one kidney, I will switch in a heartbeat. A 5 gig Flash player/recorder would be the only thing I ever would need (at least for the forseeable future).

Until then, I will give the HD1 a shot and see how it goes. Perhaps a base model (AA powered) HiMD unit like the NH700 will be fine for recording classes and language practice.

[grimleyj]

My advice is stay away from the iRiver. Although it has some impressive recording specs on paper, I had 3 iHP-120s die on me (precursor to the 320). The hard drive would get trashed or the USB would stop working and there is nothing you can do but return the unit (when this happens there is no way to reset or format the drive).

I got it mainly for field recording (I'm an amateur musician) but the recording facility has some major issues.

Once you get your recording options setup you have to wait several seconds before recording begins. It seems like the more space is used on your hard disk the longer this delay will be.

There are glitches in the recordings every so often.

I got a 30GB iPod Photo as a gift last week so that takes care of my player needs and last Friday I ordered a MZ-RH10 for recording. Hopefully I will have more luck with this than I did with the iRiver.

Later,

grimley

[lamewing]

My advice is stay away from the iRiver.  Although it has some impressive recording specs on paper, I had 3 iHP-120s die on me (precursor to the 320).  The hard drive would get trashed or the USB would stop working and there is nothing you can do but return the unit (when this happens there is no way to reset or format the drive).

I got it mainly for field recording (I'm an amateur musician) but the recording facility has some major issues.

Once you get your recording options setup you have to wait several seconds before recording begins.  It seems like the more space is used on your hard disk the longer this delay will be. 

There are glitches in the recordings every so often.

I got a 30GB iPod Photo as a gift last week so that takes care of my player needs and last Friday I ordered a MZ-RH10 for recording.  Hopefully I will have more luck with this than I did with the iRiver. 

Later,

grimley

←

I don't see myself buying a North American model of any MD recorder due to the lack of Japanese script support. The imports supoort this, so if I got one for recording my classes (some anyway) I would get the Japanese model.

The more I think about it, the more I realize I will probably need a recorder starting this summer or fall. My concern is to whether to get a 1st gen or 2nd gen HiMD unit. It looks like the 2nd gen don't record in ATRAC mode, which makes it difficult to use in my old MDLP deck.

Can I upload ANY mic recordings with HiMD and then reencode in LP2/LP4 on a standard MD? Is it possible to burn a CD with uploaded recordings? Thanks.

Joe

[streaml1ne]

Can I upload ANY mic recordings with HiMD and then reencode in LP2/LP4 on a standard MD? Is it possible to burn a CD with uploaded recordings? Thanks.

←

You can do this. Any recordings made in Hi-MD mode (PCM, Hi-SP, Hi-LP) can be uploaded. Then you can pop in a regular MD (60, 74, 80 min) and transfer those tracks to it in either LP2/4. Works fine.

[Nadav]

My advice is stay away from the iRiver.  Although it has some impressive recording specs on paper, I had 3 iHP-120s die on me (precursor to the 320).  The hard drive would get trashed or the USB would stop working and there is nothing you can do but return the unit (when this happens there is no way to reset or format the drive).

I got it mainly for field recording (I'm an amateur musician) but the recording facility has some major issues.

Once you get your recording options setup you have to wait several seconds before recording begins.  It seems like the more space is used on your hard disk the longer this delay will be. 

There are glitches in the recordings every so often.

I got a 30GB iPod Photo as a gift last week so that takes care of my player needs and last Friday I ordered a MZ-RH10 for recording.  Hopefully I will have more luck with this than I did with the iRiver. 

Later,

grimley

←

Grimleyj, I understand you had your recording problems on the iRiver iHP-120, but do you know (or anyone else) if those problems you mentioned are solved on the new iRiver H320?

[grimleyj]

Grimleyj, I understand you had your recording problems on the iRiver iHP-120, but do you know (or anyone else) if those problems you mentioned are solved on the new iRiver H320? 

←

Sorry, I'm still a little bitter over my experience!!

For all I know the H320 is a great solution for recording. I would check the misticriver forums at:

http://www.misticriver.net/boards/

... and once I get my rh10 (hopefully before the end of the week) I'll write a short report here on how my recording experiences compare with the iHP-120. I'm hoping the rh10 will suffice and I'm not tempted to go with something bigger and heavier like the Edirol unit.

-grimley