veezhun Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 This post is my experience in live recording:I went for a concert today by Dr L Subramaniam. This was a fusion concert comprising of the following instruments:Violin2 KeyboardsDrumsBass GuitarThavil ( South Indian Percussion)Mridangam ( South Indian Percussion)MoorsingKanjira and Ghatam ( South Indian Percussion)There were numerous speakers in front and some on the rear coz the auditorium was large. I was sitting in the P row where A is the closest to the stage.. Dead center..I was using ECM-DS70P for 2 tracks and then switched to my old Aiwa stereo T mic..Recording settings:Blank 1 Gb Hi MD DiscAGC set to StandardMic Sens - LowThe reason i did not choose manual was i wanted to listen with peace and not bother too much about looking at levels.. I did see them once in a while.. The sound from the PA was not too loud coz i was not next to the speakers..Results:Disappointing only becasue of the mic.. The sony ECM-DS70P looks good but there is no bass. i checked the frequency response on the website and knew immediately what the problem was.. On the aiwa mic(which costs virtually nothing), the sound is awesome.. Someone please explain this paradox..Other observations:(Another concert yesterday by Pandit Jasraj(Hindustani Vocal) )I tried 4 automatic settings:1. Mic sens Low + Standard AGC2 Mic sens Low + ForLoudMusic AGC3. Mic sens High + Standard AGC4. Mic Sens high + For Loud Music AGCThen since i was not paying too much attention the concert, i tried the manual levels too..Issues:I am not able to understand the results.. Standard AGC with mic sens low sounds the best.. I tried manual but unless i constantly changed levels, it sounded wierd... Please help me on that...Anyways, i am done with my points.. I will keep updating this until sunday.. 3 more concerts to record.. One is my own so that will be through the line in..Tried to post some samples but thanks to my upload speeds, couldnt succeed Comments and suggestions from fellow recorders is highly solicited cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmachine Posted July 23, 2005 Report Share Posted July 23, 2005 I am not able to understand the results.. Standard AGC with mic sens low sounds the best.. I tried manual but unless i constantly changed levels, it sounded wierd... Please help me on that...You seem to be used to listen to compressed music. Average consumer playback equipment often can't handle the large dynamics of an uncompressed live recording, maybe this is why you think it would sound weird.We'd love to hear some samples, even if they're shortish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaikenTana Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 Hey Veezhun, can I ask you a nother question? Does the RH10 allow you to change recordings levels while recording? And if not, is the level meter still functional while recording is paused? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A440 Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 What was Pandit Jasraj's accompaniment? If it was just tamboura or some other quiet instrument, rather than percussion, then AGC probably didn't give you any sudden shifts. I don't understand how it would sound "weird" with the correct manual level: that is, peaking slightly below the right-hand dash. If you were constantly fiddling with levels, that would make it sound weird. The trick is to find one with enough headroom, and just leave it unless you see it peaking, in which case you have to turn it down. That way the machine won't be trying to compensate and neither will you. Even if the level is below the left-hand dash, you're still recording. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veezhun Posted July 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 pandit jasraj had 3 backup vocalists.. one harmonium.. one tabla.. 2 tanpura's.. @a440, you are right i was fiddling with the levels.. what happened is i started a level during his aalaap and then the tabla and harmonium started so i changed the levels.. the backups started soon and i changed it again.. then the backups stopped so i think i changed it again.. i am not a master of the manual recording spehere but i am trying...@greenmachine.. my upload speeds are truly horrendous... i will still try to upload some samples tho.. flac or in the worst case HiSP sounds the best...i am not used to compressed music i am just used to live concerts..a lot of my music is live and recorded by either me or friends.. we used to tape on an aiwa tape recorder.. thanks all cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmachine Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 @greenmachine.. my upload speeds are truly horrendous... i will still try to upload some samples tho.. flac or in the worst case HiSP sounds the best...Just use high bitrate mp3 / vbr and you'll be fine.About manual levels: it needs indeed some practice until you get to know your equipment good enough to estimate a good level. But if you know how loud it'll be (if you're recording your own music for example), there's nothing easier than setting the right levels. Avoid to change them during the recording whenever possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaikenTana Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Why? Isn't it easier to change them while recording? Having to pause every time you want to adjust the volume must go so frustrating. Even TSP thinks the same:"Many of the current SONY MiniDisc recorders have a limitation built right into them.....they don't allow the user to manually adjust recording levels while you are recording. You must first pause the recording before adjusting recording levels. This can be a nuisance if you find the need to adjust the recording level in the middle of the program you are recording." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmachine Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 There's nothing wrong with it as long as you're in the experimentation stage, but it can be very irritating when you're listening to it afterwards. Did you ever see a sound engineer fiddling with the levels during an important recording? It's propably smarter to leave a healthy amount of headroom than running it too hot and having to change levels constantly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaikenTana Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Of course. I'm just saying, as quickley as it takes to adjust the volume with a good headroom, there are times when you might want to lower it in certain situations (a truck comes past and is louder than you expected, a speaker's voice gets louder than you thought it could.) I suppose leaving lots of head room is the universal solution for all that, but I just find it more convenient to quickley make a slight volume change without having to pause first.Besdies, it's just an easy matter of editing out the parts you don't where the volume changes (unless there's something during that part which is critical, at which point you've screwed it for yourself and you have to counter-act the volume changes in Adobe Audition or WaveStudio or what have you) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmachine Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 You're certainly right, i guess we were talking about different subjects - you seem to be more into spontaneous ambient location recording or whatever people may call it - usually short clips with different level settings each time, while i've been talking about recording music, shows, concerts as a whole. It can be counterproductive to change levels during recording there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaikenTana Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 (edited) Oh, yeah, that's understandable. No I don't picture myself going to concerts. I do record from the radio and TV a lot though when it comes to music, so I can understand how an unstable volume level would be irritating. The majority of sound recording I do is stuff that you can repeat/that happens again, so there's not really an issue for me there. Edited July 25, 2005 by DaikenTana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A440 Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 "Many of the current SONY MiniDisc recorders have a limitation built right into them.....they don't allow the user to manually adjust recording levels while you are recording. You must first pause the recording before adjusting recording levels."←TSP should update its website. Sony recorders have been able to adjust levels while recording at least since the N9** series. All Hi-MDs let you change the level while recording. That doesn't mean it's a good idea--better to set it and forget it--but you can definitely do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobt Posted July 29, 2005 Report Share Posted July 29, 2005 I've been recording for years, and from day one the advice has been set levels and leave them alone, with digital you don't have the headroom of analog, but eventually you will find a happy medium.I recorded Kiran Ahluwalla at the Edmonton Folf Music Festival a couple of years ago with an MZ-N707 and a simple mic, turned out great.Remember, simple is better.Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaikenTana Posted August 5, 2005 Report Share Posted August 5, 2005 You're quite right. AGC is alot easier than having to piss around with manual levels, but it keeps your head room as low as possible (which is really bad when an extremely loud sound occurs, at which point the AGC recoils and there goes the consistancy of your recording...)I was walking down the street yesterday with the mics in my ears, and an unexpected bus came absolutely ROARING past me. The preamp overloaded. Now if I had expected that, I would have turned the manuals down, but that means the rest of the recording (4 minutes roughly) would have been bloody quiet. So, it seems a high dynamic range recording is neat, but it can mean you have to crank your speakers up which isn't too convenient when you've got a much louder recording coming up on the next track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A440 Posted August 5, 2005 Report Share Posted August 5, 2005 That's what "normalize" is for on your CD burning program. It brings the levels of very different tracks closer to one another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaikenTana Posted August 6, 2005 Report Share Posted August 6, 2005 Normalize finds the loudest peak of your sound and amplifies the wave until that peak reaches the maximum allowable volume before overload. My point was that this is useless if 90% of your recording is very soft compared to that one small little loud sound which is keeping everything else down when Normalizing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A440 Posted August 6, 2005 Report Share Posted August 6, 2005 Well, you could always lower that one peak manually with any sound-editing program. Or you could normalize (with an editing program, not a burning program) big sections around that peak. It's up to you if you want the absolute realism of an uncompressed recording or if you'd rather have a compressed recording. Personally, I like the full dynamics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nallyvaico Posted August 6, 2005 Report Share Posted August 6, 2005 So, is RH10 live recording quality an improvement over Sony's NetMD generation portable recorders? And any better than that of Sharp MD's? I remember Sharp has always been praised for better quality of its MD portable recorders compared to Sony...I recently bought the RH910, I think in a way it is very similar to the RH10. I also have the Sharp's DR77, which disappointed me during my last live recording - terrible overclipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
optimistic-pessimist Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 So, is RH10 live recording quality an improvement over Sony's NetMD generation portable recorders? And any better than that of Sharp MD's? I remember Sharp has always been praised for better quality of its MD portable recorders compared to Sony...Well I can't speak for certain since I haven't used my new RH10 for any live shows yet (3 coming up in the next two weeks though ) but I'm certainly expecting the PCM mode to give better results than anything possible on MD's in the past.I recently bought the RH910, I think in a way it is very similar to the RH10. I also have the Sharp's DR77, which disappointed me during my last live recording - terrible overclipping.←Overclipping?... surely this was due to poorly set recording levels... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nallyvaico Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 That's was the problem - I experimented with recording levels 3 or 4 times, with no avail. Too much bass, it destroys it all. Was it a matter of a wrong mic? I remember making a live recording 4 years ago using the Kenwood (Sharp 722's clone) - it was OK. That was an Animals gig, I used an absolutely rank-and-file PC mono mic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
optimistic-pessimist Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 Hard to say really... Most of the shows I record are loud rock concerts, and I use a battery box with bass rolloff plugged into the line-in jack on my recorder. The battery box provides more power to the mics than the plug-in power of the recorder, which allows the mics to handle higher sound pressure levels. The bass roll-off reduces the amount of bass getting to the recorder so I don't have as much editing to do later. Lastly, the line-in can handle higher signals than the mic-in. I don't know if you're recording in similar situations to mine though... I had one concert where I discovered that my battery box wasn't working just as the band was coming onstage. I quickly took out the batt box, plugged the mics into mic-in, set the mic sensitivity to low, and put my levels WAY down. It didn't matter... this setup just couldn't handle the heavy bass and the entire recording is basically ruined by brickwalling.Anyone else feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, or add more detail to my rough explanation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yakman Posted August 30, 2005 Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 This post is my experience in live recording:I went for a concert today by Dr L Subramaniam. This was a fusion concert comprising of the following instruments:I was using ECM-DS70P for 2 tracks and then switched to my old Aiwa stereo T mic..On the aiwa mic(which costs virtually nothing), the sound is awesome.. Someone please explain this paradox..←Hi, Veezhun,what's the model number of the Aiwa mic?I wanna get a low price small size stereo mic for live classical concert also.Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.