NetMD uploads still not supported via SS3.4

[lacocio]

...why not upload for normal Net MD unit (No Hi-MD)? sigh...

Ego

[mercury_in_flames]

I have a feeling its not the software at fault here guys, best to just stop dreaming lol. Be glad for what it does.I guess I'm one of the lucky people to have copied my cd before i recorded it to md back in the old days (4 yrs ago). I have come to accept minidisc as a sort of cd-rw format. With all music I have on md, i see to it that i get the tracks in another medium (mp3, cd etc). I guess if you are of those that used md to record live music or for any other use than making mixes from portable cd players, etc, that you are the ones peeved off right now.

If I had a DAB, went to concerts/gigs/etc alo, and used it for work, then I would dump net md and get himd.

To conclude, wake up and smell the coffee net md owners lol, you're not going to get to upload tracks that you recorded, ever (i'll eat my hat if it does happen though )

[guyj1]

...why not upload for normal Net MD unit (No Hi-MD)? sigh...

Ego

I would like to hear a valid argument as to why I shouldn't directly upload my Net MD live recordings, particularly since you can now upload your tracks from your library to your friends library. I got permission and was even encouraged by the indie bands I recorded to do so.

The capability through MD for ripping off music without paying for it is there already so why still the fear of allowing people to share their own recordings. I got into MD 5 years ago for the sole purpose of recording live music, not for listening to my MP3's. I would like to be able to share those live recordings with the fans and band members of those bands without having to degrade the quality through an analogue transfer.

Sony needs to allow SDK for HiMD so that innovative people can develop applications to expand the capabilities of their units.

I'm not as encouraged by the release of 3.4 as some of you may be because it still will not allow me to use my recorder to it's potential. I already have discovered that it is no more stable than previous versions. I have already had it crash twice on me just trying to import playlists generated from MMJB. No other MP3 software has any problems with the same .M3U files. It took 3-4 minutes of wait time when I started the import before it even attempts to take any action. Then 3/4 of the way through the playlist import OMG crashes.

When I considered buying MD again I read up about the problems of digital transfers through SS and thought to myself it probably wasn't as bad as it seemed. It is as bad as I read... Sonic Stage is still cra ppy software and every update just takes baby steps at resolving problems. Sony doesn't have time to delay in fixing the issues because people like me are going to get fed up and move on to something more user friendly.

[Christopher]

guyj, older MD cannot upload because of limitations in the technology itself, hence why they created Hi-MD. If they could allow uploading they would have, there is nothing more they can do about the matter.

[KrazyIvan]

I would like to hear a valid argument as to why I shouldn't directly upload my Net MD live recordings, particularly since you can now upload your tracks from your library to your friends library. I got permission and was even encouraged by the indie bands I recorded to do so.

The problem is in the hardware. Even if it could be allowed through software it would most likely be realtime anyway. The only advantage would be title transfer capabilities like what winnetmd does already. I don't think people would value that as much as being able to upload faster than real time with Hi-MD.

[raintheory]

I have to say I understand hardware limitations of the NetMD units themselves... But I don't think I understand how it wouldn't in theory be possible to copy the Atrac data (audio) directly from SP or LP discs, faster than realtime with a HiMD recorder... I'm not saying that any software upgrade or firmware update to existing recorders would or could enable this... But to me uploading of SP or LP data doesn't seem like it would be impossible to incorporate at some point (maybe a future portable?).

[guyj1]

The problem is in the hardware. Even if it could be allowed through software it would most likely be realtime anyway. The only advantage would be title transfer capabilities like what winnetmd does already. I don't think people would value that as much as being able to upload faster than real time with Hi-MD.

I'm not talking about transferring from a an actual Net MD recorder. I'm talking about transferring my previous recordings in SP mode I made on my MZ-R909 and Sharp DR480 (recognized as NetMD in SS) through my Hi MD recorder. If SS through my Hi MD recorder can read the files and decode them then it should be able to transfer them. The information is only digital bits of "1's and 0's". I would think it is just a matter of the software allowing the transfer to occur through the USB cable.

[KrazyIvan]

Yes, it's just 1's and 0's but it is 1's and 0's wrapped up in a veil of DRM that apparently Hi-MD cannot even crack. The way I see it, there is something done at the hardware level that is not compatible with Hi-MD thus making it not possible to upload.

[jonny mac]

I don't want to seem unsympathetic, I have a few NetMD recordings I'd like to transfer myself, but I wish NetMD owners would just accept that they are NEVER going to be allowed to transfer these recordings to a PC. With the DRM relaxations Sony have imposed on HiMD lately I find it hard to believe they wouldn't allow NetMD uploads if they were technically feasable. Somewhere in the technology there is something that doesn't allow this. Period.

Every time there's a new SS release and NetMD uploads are (yet again) not allowed, the same discussion ensues and it's getting a tad boring. It's also a bit unfair on Sony who are now making their MD technology more accessable to it's users. You bought your NetMDs knowing they couldn't transfer to PC, didn't you? Now you want something extra that wasn't in the original deal. I see the annoyance but must this be discussed with every SS release?

[raintheory]

Either way, I'm content in knowing that I can always use either of my MD Pro decks to get a digital recording off of SP/LP discs, albeit in realtime.

[Ral-Clan]

I would like to hear a valid argument as to why I shouldn't directly upload my Net MD live recordings,

I think the question should be: is it even possible in the older Net-MD hardware to send digital audio data back to the computer? i.e. even if Sony WANTED to grant Net-MD users uploading ability now, would it be possible in the existing, sold base of hardware? Are there physical/eletrical connections in the machine that would make this a possibility (or is the data flow 'one-way' only)?

Oops! I see a lot of other people have already reponded in a like manner!

Edited February 2, 2006 by Ral-Clan

[guyj1]

>>Every time there's a new SS release and NetMD uploads are (yet again) not allowed, the same discussion ensues and it's getting a tad boring. It's also a bit unfair on Sony who are now making their MD technology more accessable to it's users.

Sorry that the repetitive complaining seems boring to you but I'm sure lots of people that complained in the past about a digital link between their PC's and MD's are happy they got what they repeatedly complained about with the introduction of HiMD. Squeaky Wheels!

>>You bought your NetMDs knowing they couldn't transfer to PC, didn't you? Now you want something extra that wasn't in the original deal. I see the annoyance but must this be discussed with every SS release?

Yes this is partly true, I knew when I bought those older units that the technology offered the best affordable way of digitally capturing recordings but I would have to transfer analogue. I also knew and still know I could buy a deck and transfer through an optical cable to capture in real time a digital copy. I expected that the technology on future portables would evolve to allow unencumbered digital transfers of those recordings so I continue to buy into the format and cross my fingers. I do appreciate the ability to use HiMD to be able to transfer my new recordings. I just think that because my older recordings are wrapped up in DRM, the software developers at Sony should be able through the software to strip it out. At the least SS should be able to play it through my USB and capture that recording in real time digitally. They put it there so they should be able to take it out or ignore it.

What would make me (and others) quit biching about MD?

Drop the ball and chain of DRM entirely.

Allow Drag and Drop of the files (MP3 and files recorded from MD) between MD>PC and back again. Let me do it through a simple windows explorer type interface.

Quit forcing me to use Sonic Stage. This is some of the worst unreliable code written since Windows 95 but I have no other choice but to not use it at all.

I love and enjoy MD. I think it is the greatest, most affordable format for digital recording. When I started listening to portable music I started out listening to really big Japanese monaural AM radios through a tiny speaker pressed up to my ear. Technology for portable digital recording is past a stage of maturity and MD should be the format. Sony just needs to let it be what it could be or die like the 8-track did.

[Richard]

Sorry that the repetitive complaining seems boring to you but I'm sure lots of people that complained in the past about a digital link between their PC's and MD's are happy they got what they repeatedly complained about with the introduction of HiMD. Squeaky Wheels!

Exactly Hi-MD replaced NetMD for this very reason. You can't expect Sony to try and retrofit old legacy equipment with Hi-MD technology, it just won't work. Why doesn't MS Office 2003 run on Windows 98? It's just not compatible technology. Get over it.

[anont]

Exactly Hi-MD replaced NetMD for this very reason. You can't expect Sony to try and retrofit old legacy equipment with Hi-MD technology, it just won't work. Why doesn't MS Office 2003 run on Windows 98? It's just not compatible technology. Get over it.

Perhaps it's a boring issue, but in point of fact of course it would be possible for Sonic Stage to allow the uploads, if Sony allowed - they just chose not to. The idea that the DRM is so strong that it can't be implemented by computers just doesn't make any sense, it shows a fundamental lack of understanding. Computers can execute any computer algorithm that comes their way, it would be trivial to implement given that Sony has the schematic. Sony allowing this uploading functionality would have been great, I have a stack of old concert recordings. True I bought the unit not expecting to make digital uploads, but it would be a nice bonus to a loyal recording fanbase that is probably the only thing keeping MD going.

The minidisc.org headline ("stunning", implying that I would be stunned) got me more excited than the reality. I can transfer digital-link recordings to the computer as a .wav file? I have not once ever been in a situation where I would want to do this, and really I have to strain to imagine situations where you'd want to. For one thing, there's no reason to still be recording via an optical link - maybe in 1998 on my Sharp 722 it was cool, but not now.

[guyj1]

Exactly Hi-MD replaced NetMD for this very reason. You can't expect Sony to try and retrofit old legacy equipment with Hi-MD technology, it just won't work. Why doesn't MS Office 2003 run on Windows 98? It's just not compatible technology. Get over it.

I can still open and read documents in Office 2003 that I wrote in Office 97 because it was designed with backwards compatibility in mind.

There are 2 schools of MD users. Recordists and those that just want to hear their MP3's on the go. If I were from the latter group then I would have already made the jump to Ipod and I'd already be "over it".

Sony currently provides backwards compatibility for listening to SP and LP modes. Just give us recordists the same backwards compatibility for archiving our old recordings. The MD is just the extension of the cassette recorder technology anyway. I do not see it surviving in it's current form as an MP3 medium when so many unencumbered competitors abound.

I'll quit bichin now cause I've made my point. I just wanted to disagree with the title of this thread because i do not agree that "3.4 has debuted with Stunning New Functionality". I just hope Sony fixes my issues before Steve Jobs puts recording inputs on an Ipod.

[Richard]

I can still open and read documents in Office 2003 that I wrote in Office 97 because it was designed with backwards compatibility in mind.

Correct in the same way you can playback SP/LP2/LP4 recordings on a Hi-MD unit.

You can't read documents created by Office 2003 with Office 97 (unless you force it to remove the Office 2003 exclusive features) in the same way you can't upload legacy Atrac files. Uploading is something that is inherent to Hi-MD formatted discs & not the legacy versions of the codecs on NetMD formatted discs..

[guyj1]

I guess we sullied the Rah-Rah celebration of the release of 3.4 with some critical discussion regarding the development of Sonic Stage.

We've now been relegated as Ranters by someone with moderator priveleges and kicked into our own Rant Thread.

Guess I better shut my mouth now before I get banned for having an opposing view and not being a very good Sony customer.

[raintheory]

Don't forget that there are pre-recorded minidiscs out there that Sony would have to worry about people uploading as well...

[Christopher]

Guess I better shut my mouth now before I get banned for having an opposing view and not being a very good Sony customer.

Your free to speak your mind, but the topic was about Sonicstage 3.4, not the outdated conversation of NetMD being unable to upload. It was diluting information that people would find important in that topic and dissected accordingly. Wouldn't you rather people see a topic about this with proper organization rather than scrawl mashed up in a topic that doesn't have anything to do with it? NetMD uploading is not a specific SS3.4 issue, it's been an issue since 1.5. It deserved a seperate topic, and I'm sure 99% of people will agree with that.

If I banned people for having an opposing view of the software, then I promise you that we wouldn't have many members here at all. Lay off that nonsense, please.

[dex Otaku]

Just some thoughts after reflecting on the some of the misconceptions expressed in this thread..

* MD/LP does NOT use encryption of any kind [it uses a proprietary data structure related to that of CD's]

* MD/LP does NOT use DRM other than SCMS [which is easily defeated]

* ATRAC [292kbps SP mode] itself does not currently exist as a codec on the PC, not even in Sony's [formerly Sonic Foundry's] professional software [i.e. Sound Forge, which has netMD support built-in and has for quite a while]; an actual ATRAC SP codec would be needed for anything to advance, not that this would actually be difficult to arrange

* There is no actual reason, hardware-wise, why MD/LP recordings can't be transferred digitally to a computer; there are no limitations imposed by either the media or the data format themselves, though the hardware would have to be made to support the option, which it currently is not. This would likely require firmware upgrades to enable the option, assuming the added code would not inflate the firmware beyond the size limit imposed by the hardware in the units

* [opinion] Sony made a deliberate CHOICE not to support MD/LP uploads because it does not use modern DRM

* Until SS 3.4, SCMS itself was not even respected by SS [i.e. not checking of SCMS bits during upload of optical recording to mark tracks as eligible for conversion to WAV or not]

Most importantly:

* Considering the recent changes to OpenMG DRM, especially concerning the uploading of user-made recordings, there is now NO REASON for Sony to not enable uploading of MD/LP recordings

[KrazyIvan]

Well apparently there is since we don't have the ability to transfer it. Based on your points I am obliged to think it is greedy pockets??? It just does not make sense, if what you say is true. (I am not saying it is not true just making an assumption which I cannot back up). What is it about the SP codec that Sony does not want to make as a codec on the PC? Why all the taboo around it?

Please note that my questions are rhetorical.

[guyj1]

* Considering the recent changes to OpenMG DRM, especially concerning the uploading of user-made recordings, there is now NO REASON for Sony to not enable uploading of MD/LP recordings

I agree 100% Dex. MD units do not have a mechanical lock and key preventing access to the data held within. They have a software lock and key and Sony for whatever reason will not give it to us. It seems to me no different than defeating the software lock and key they use on DVD's to prevent copying. Most people with a DVD burner have a program that will allow them to defeat DVD encryption. The movie industry tried to stop VCR equipment manufacturers from allowing copying for fear of people ripping off movies. That is the same type of mentality that has been driving Sony Electronics development for the past decade. Sony made (and still does) some of the best consumer electronics available. That is why they were King. But as soon as media content got portable and easily reproduceable then Sony Corporate tries to stuff the genie back in the bottle. Their marketshare has suffered when other manufacturers started building equipment of equal quality and ease of use. It is simple economics, the customer votes with their dollars and Sony has to change the corporate mentality if they are to regain marketshare.

[Christopher]

I will talk to the Director of Technology at Sony (he's a huge influence on ATRAC, and we collaborated in a few long sessions at CES) about this matter and find out the exact reasoning as to why it's still not allowed. There must be a plausible reason. Not enough money to reverse engineer, resources etc. immediately come to mind..

[dex Otaku]

I will talk to the Director of Technology at Sony (he's a huge influence on ATRAC, and we collaborated in a few long sessions at CES) about this matter and find out the exact reasoning as to why it's still not allowed. There must be a plausible reason. Not enough money to reverse engineer, resources etc. immediately come to mind..

Give the current state of DRM in SS 3.4, that can't be the reason any more.

There are still other things to keep in mind though, which I did already touch on above, but didn't fully address.

The main one is that the software governing HiMD hardware [i.e. the firmware] would have to be updated to allow MD/LP uploads. This in itself would not be a trivial task; firmware is written at low-level, using hardware directly, so any additions such as this would not merely be a bugfix [as was the case with the missing letters on the RH10 titling interface] but an actual majour change to the communications interface - a whole new module just to address the one use. That means programming it, and using more resources to store the firmware on every unit. I have no idea how much space the current firmware takes or if there is any room left to really add majour functionality changes, so it's possible that current [G1 and G2] HiMD hardware might not be upgradeable at all [though I doubt it, myself].

It also means developing the ATRAC SP codec and altering the HiMD modules in SS to interface with the new firmware.

Basically, adding what many of us think is a simple change would actually be a fair amount of work. I think it would be worth it, though; how many MD users out there want this function? Probably almost every single one who bought into HiMD, at the least; there's also all the broadcasters and colleges out there still using portable MD recorders or who have archives of recordings they'd probably really like to back up by other means for long-term safekeeping.

Hey - if Sony want a guinea-pig, they can call me with my NH700. I'll find another machine to beta SS on, even. I'd do product testing for them at the drop of a hat.

[pauljones52]

They would need to develop an ATRAC (SP) software decoder. I am guessing it takes a lot of time and resources to do this, maybe it is not economical to do?

[dex Otaku]

They would need to develop an ATRAC (SP) software decoder. I am guessing it takes a lot of time and resources to do this, maybe it is not economical to do?

The codec itself would probably be the least of the work.

[KrazyIvan]

After thinking about this some more I believe it is just simple, planned obsolescence.

[dex Otaku]

If it were really planned obsolescence, why wouldn't they provide a method that is as simple as possible to get data -off- the media they're planning obsolescence for?

[raintheory]

If it were really planned obsolescence, why wouldn't they provide a method that is as simple as possible to get data -off- the media they're planning obsolescence for?

Yeah really...

Unless they are just downright spiteful, and hate their customers.

[zerodB]

* MD/LP does NOT use encryption of any kind [it uses a proprietary data structure related to that of CD's]

* MD/LP does NOT use DRM other than SCMS [which is easily defeated]

Dex, I'm pretty sure the NetMD units used some form of OpenMG data protection - in the early days, you could only transfer an OpenMG (ATRAC3 - MDLP) track to your NetMD unit a total of 3 times. You could "transfer/check-in" your music back to your PC, but all this meant was that the track was erased from the disc, and the transfer count on the PC increased by one. The point is that when tracks were downloaded from PC to disc, you could not edit or erase the tracks directly on the disc (to preserve the check-out counter information I presume) - nor could you "check-in" your tracks to a computer that they were not originaly downloaded from. I know this not DRM encryption in the strictest sense of the term, but it's some form of digital copy protection.

* ATRAC [292kbps SP mode] itself does not currently exist as a codec on the PC

* There is no actual reason, hardware-wise, why MD/LP recordings can't be transferred digitally to a computer; there are no limitations imposed by either the media or the data format themselves, though the hardware would have to be made to support the option, which it currently is not. This would likely require firmware upgrades to enable the option, assuming the added code would not inflate the firmware beyond the size limit imposed by the hardware in the units

That all said, I am baffled as to why Sony did not allow SP-mode downloads with NetMD to begin with - if it is possible for the unit to decode ATRAC3 data to ATRAC (SP), then why did Sony not include SP mode downloads from day one? I'm not 100% clued in on the technology, but I would believe it to be possible in current NetMD units simply with a software/firmware upgrade - especially given the capacity of some of the NetMD bookshelf units to rip CDs into SP mode at high speed (4x).

Why Sony did not allow this is beyond me. Perhaps you could speak to your contact with Sony, chris, to see if anything more can be gleaned on this issue.

I have a theory - it's just speculation - but I would say it may have something to do with the licencing issue with Dolby over the original SP codec - perhaps this is what prevented the commercial development of a software SP codec.

And as for the hardware uploading issue, yes, it certainly would be possible.

I believe it would certainly be a worthwhile endevour for Sony to invest in making these changes to NetMD hardware. Of course, I don't think it will happen, but I feel it would pay off for the company in the long run - given the saturation of standard MD in the Japanese market, and the wide use of MD in semi-pro recording and broadcasting. This would increase the company's standing with their user base, as well as rejuvinating interest for HiMD in a declining market. It would be a worthwhile investment for minidisc's future.

Don't forget, that currently standard MD media offers some advantages over their HiMD counterparts. While HiMD remains infinatley more versatile, MD currently offers faster seek times, with smaller, less battery hungry portables. There is the wide range of MD portables available (in Japan), and of course, those all important decks.

[atrain]

Dex, I'm pretty sure the NetMD units used some form of OpenMG data protection - in the early days, you could only transfer an OpenMG (ATRAC3 - MDLP) track to your NetMD unit a total of 3 times. You could "transfer/check-in" your music back to your PC, but all this meant was that the track was erased from the disc, and the transfer count on the PC increased by one. The point is that when tracks were downloaded from PC to disc, you could not edit or erase the tracks directly on the disc (to preserve the check-out counter information I presume) - nor could you "check-in" your tracks to a computer that they were not originaly downloaded from. I know this not DRM encryption in the strictest sense of the term, but it's some form of digital copy protection.

track check out data was local kept in an access database on the pc. i'd think that's why there was no uploading because the user rights were on the pc not in the track data on the disc.

That all said, I am baffled as to why Sony did not allow SP-mode downloads with NetMD to begin with - if it is possible for the unit to decode ATRAC3 data to ATRAC (SP), then why did Sony not include SP mode downloads from day one? I'm not 100% clued in on the technology, but I would believe it to be possible in current NetMD units simply with a software/firmware upgrade - especially given the capacity of some of the NetMD bookshelf units to rip CDs into SP mode at high speed (4x).

cd->sp at 4x speed is an analogue recording, more akin to high speed tape dubs rather than a digital transfer. this limitation to me screams 'perfect copy paranoia' than technical limitations.

[dex Otaku]

Dex, I'm pretty sure the NetMD units used some form of OpenMG data protection - in the early days, you could only transfer an OpenMG (ATRAC3 - MDLP) track to your NetMD unit a total of 3 times. You could "transfer/check-in" your music back to your PC, but all this meant was that the track was erased from the disc, and the transfer count on the PC increased by one. The point is that when tracks were downloaded from PC to disc, you could not edit or erase the tracks directly on the disc (to preserve the check-out counter information I presume) - nor could you "check-in" your tracks to a computer that they were not originaly downloaded from. I know this not DRM encryption in the strictest sense of the term, but it's some form of digital copy protection.

Well put .. my thoughts:

First, it was a retrofit. This means that for backwards-compatibility purposes, it had to not change the current data structure so much that it wouldn't work with older units.

Second, this kind of protection can be easily accomplished through, say, adding a few extra bits or using unused bits in the TOC for each track, identifying their source and copiability. As for the actual data stream on playback [and during storage], SCMS can handle the job; one way to tell if this is the case would be to try copying an MDLP recording via optical means that originated with SS and using an SCMS stripper. If with the stripper, copying is allowed, then we see how weak it is. If without the stripper it doesn't, then the old rules are all that's really being used [aside from the retrofit hack which would be part of every unit's firmware enabling identification of the originating source as a computer or not].

. . . I would believe it to be possible in current NetMD units simply with a software/firmware upgrade - especially given the capacity of some of the NetMD bookshelf units to rip CDs into SP mode at high speed (4x).

My understanding was that there's a qualtiy difference on par with SP vs. LP2 [i.e. a faster padded-out LP2 codec being used] when using the high speed method. I might be wrong, though.

I have a theory - it's just speculation - but I would say it may have something to do with the licencing issue with Dolby over the original SP codec - perhaps this is what prevented the commercial development of a software SP codec.

I sort of doubt this, though it's possible.

And as for the hardware uploading issue, yes, it certainly would be possible.

My understanding of the Dolby liscensing issue is that it came up because Dolby patented something that referred to basically .. a lossy codec that doesn't suffer terrible degradation in the signal after multiple generations of encoding/decoding/encoding. Sony were working on ATRAC at the time, and rather than poison their product with a patent lawsuit they just paid Dolby. ATRAC itself isn't using anything from Dolby, AFAIK.

That said, a software codec would still involve liscensing because of that patent. Which means it would cost money .. on the other hand, Sony are already distributing versions of WMA and MP3 with SS, which they'd still have to pay for. They would even have to pay if they chose to distribute with LAME, contrary to what most people think.

I believe it would certainly be a worthwhile endevour for Sony to invest in making these changes to NetMD hardware. Of course, I don't think it will happen, but I feel it would pay off for the company in the long run - given the saturation of standard MD in the Japanese market, and the wide use of MD in semi-pro recording and broadcasting. This would increase the company's standing with their user base, as well as rejuvinating interest for HiMD in a declining market. It would be a worthwhile investment for minidisc's future.

IMO, the MD / netMD question is completely moot.

The following is pure speculation and may be out to lunch [i have no desire to dl all the service manuals and compare components for every model]...

The development required to alter all netMD units would total in the thousands of man-hours - how likely is it that the firmware in every netMD unit even comes from the same base source, or that they even all use the same hardware? Basically, they'd have to design for and test every unit they want to retrofit independently, or per model-family, and that's even making the assumption that the firmware is upgradeable in every model.

HiMD is only 2 generations and less than 10 models in .. that would be a much smaller task, comparatively. The base components in all units are the same, so aside from the interface which varies model-by-model and display-by-display, the changes would be pretty minor compared to attempting the same with netMD.

My suggestion to Sony would be this: [go ahead and call me nuts]

Release a 3rd gen of HiMD, including at least a couple of deck models that include both SP/DIF and USB functionality. Fix the MP3 bug. Give users a way to lock manual levels controls on. Give users back the function of being able to pitch or speed-alter playback. Enable the alternate bitrates for recording. And lastly, add USB uploading on all models for MD/LP tracks.

And maybe, just maybe, get someone who actually uses the units to rearrange the menu architecture so that the most commonly-used functions are really fast to get to, rather than having to dig through levels after level and re-enter the menus again after changing a single option.

I don't find that much fault with the HiMD units I use as they are; the list above I think are the most important changes to make. Many of you will disagree, of course.

Lastly, I wish they would do with HiMD what I've been saying since it was introduced: market it as a recording medium, not a portable music player. MD and netMD are dead on the water in that market, and HiMD is far too little, too late, to make any difference to their marketshare. Their hdd players fill that role to compete with the iPod and whatever else - on their own merits. Whether they're successful or not is topic for another discussion elsewhere.

HiMD is inherently extensible between generations. The fact that they added native [though somewhat crippled] MP3 playback in gen2 speaks to this; there's no reason why they can't go even further, and do things like add fast lossless codecs, 24-bit recording, &c. As with the MP3 issue, it means losing bits of backward-compatibility, but - really, how many people are buying these to use exclusively as players? The majority of MD and HiMD enthusiasts are amateur or professional recordists who need something extremely portable and at relatively low cost; HiMD fits that bill nicely, and it does its job admirably well IMO. The fact that it plays music it still only a bonus feature for me; if I really wanted a portable player, I'd buy a hdd-based unit.

But then, I'm one of those old people who likes devices that are designed to do one thing, and do it well. Like .. a cel phone that is a good phone, not a camera/music player/phone/organiser and all of them shoddily done.

I know, I'm a dying breed.

Don't forget, that currently standard MD media offers some advantages over their HiMD counterparts. While HiMD remains infinatley more versatile, MD currently offers faster seek times, with smaller, less battery hungry portables. There is the wide range of MD portables available (in Japan), and of course, those all important decks.

This may be true, but MD itself is 14 years old. Development, from my understanding, has been frozen for some time and will go no further [though this doesn't mean that new hardware won't be made, it just means no changes to the format and how it functions]. The advantages of MD over HiMD are honestly few, and the only truly significant one IMO is the difference in battery life. HiMD plays all the old discs in any case.

There's basically no reason for them to waste their money making new equipment that really serves a fairly small market to begin with, and which is shrinking every day.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, even though it's still not official: IMO, MD and netMD are deprecated.

track check out data was local kept in an access database on the pc. i'd think that's why there was no uploading because the user rights were on the pc not in the track data on the disc.

Haha! I forgot about that. Thanks.

[zerodB]

track check out data was local kept in an access database on the pc

Right. So there was no DRM on the device/media itself, the tracks were just protected from edits/erasure.

cd->sp at 4x speed is an analogue recording, more akin to high speed tape dubs rather than a digital transfer

Ah ha. Thanks.

Thanks for your input, dex, but hey, I dunno. I still use cassette tapes on a fairly regular basis so I guess that makes me sufficently old-skool.

As for Sony wasting their money, well - it's not always about products I believe. Companies should invest in maintanig the loyalty of their user base - it's not only great PR, but provides a vital opportunity to gauge the state of the market and road-test new technologies. Though perhaps I'm being a tad idealistic. Quite a bit probably. Sony certainly aren't microsoft or others, who do that kind of thing on a daily basis. (edit: I'm sure every man and his dog has an opinion about MS & etc, but let's just not go there for the moment!)

I agree whole-heartedly with you on the marketing aspects of HiMD - there certainly is a niche to be filled in that regard.

But while we are on the topic of NetMD, would anyone like to offer some insight as to why LP4 support was virtually dropped in SonicStage from v3.2 onwards?

Edited February 4, 2006 by zerodB

[dex Otaku]

But while we are on the topic of NetMD, would anyone like to offer some insight as to why LP4 support was virtually dropped in SonicStage from v3.2 onwards?

Hmm. Can't say that I was paying attention to this .. for two reasons - first, I don't use netMD mode on any discs, and second, LP4 sounds like poop. Now that you've mentioned it, though, yes - it's completely gone from 3.4.

In fact, the distinction between atrac3 and atrac3plus is gone .. the list of possible encoding modes is either ATRAC or ATRAC advanced lossless now.. hmm.

Theories:

* Sony have determined by whatever means that LP4 is not often used and its inclusion is redundant

* Sony have realised how bad the quality of LP4 is compared to virtually any recent codec at near the same bitrate

* Sony have deemed the netMD market so tiny compared to the hdd, flash, and HiMD markets combined [all of whice support atrac3plus] that they have removed the codec because, well, it's redundant and has been superceded by a3+ bitrates

* Sony have removed LP4 support to push netMD customers into upgrading to equipment that is a3+ compatible

Personal opinion? Some of all of the above.

This could also imply, since the vast majority of the netMD / MDLP market is in Japan, that they're trying to push the Japanese market into dropping their old equipment in favour of Sony's newer offerings.

[Roamer]

There is only LP2 @132k available as ATRAC3 in SonicStage.

And when the 2nd gen. appeared with mp3 support, the possibility to record in legacy Atrac3 (via mic-in/line-in) has gone.

My theory :

* There was not enough space in the firmware to fit both legacy recording Atrac3 and mp3

* Sony wants to push customers to Atrac3+ (same as 4th point in dex's comment)

I'm not sure if they could technically make netMD recording uploadable, but i'm pretty sure from a financial and marketing point of view that they don't want to make big investment in legacy format and i also think that MD/netMD are considered as deprecated.

And even if it could be done, Sony has never written the SP codec for SonicStage.

[Ral-Clan]

I will talk to the Director of Technology at Sony (he's a huge influence on ATRAC, and we collaborated in a few long sessions at CES) about this matter and find out the exact reasoning as to why it's still not allowed. There must be a plausible reason. Not enough money to reverse engineer, resources etc. immediately come to mind..

I suspect that it is an issue of economics: why throw even 48 hours of a SONY programmer's time into adding an uploading feature for "old" NET-MD into SonicStage when all the money is to be made in the current Hi-MD line. It's quite possible, but economically not a prudent move.

However, from the standpoint of fostering customer loyalty and good nature, it could be viewed as "profitable".

On the other hand, it could actually result in the sale of more Hi-MD machines if Sony makes it necessary to use a Hi-MD deck/walkman to upload the "regular" MD audio.

For all of us MD-users out here with important live recordings on 'regular' Minidisc, I hope you are successful in chatting with this fellow. It would mean a lot to us to have this feature.

[Ral-Clan]

Hmm. Can't say that I was paying attention to this .. for two reasons - first, I don't use netMD mode on any discs, and second, LP4 sounds like poop. Now that you've mentioned it, though, yes - it's completely gone from 3.4.

Wait a second. Are you saying that "standard" LP4 is not supported (or exists) at all in the newest versions of SonicStage? What about in Simpleburner?

I bought a "regular" Minidisc NET-MD walkman for my wife this past Christmas and beforehand I filled up a disc for her in LP4 mode with my "old" non NET capable MZ-R700. She loves the five hours of music LP4 gives her, and honestly, she CANNOT tell the difference (I certainly can - but she's one of those casual listeners who is okay with LP4).

So if we upgrade to SonicStage 3.4 (if and when I get a Hi-MD walkman), will she still be able to create LP4 discs on her older NET-MD with this version of SS?

Edited February 4, 2006 by Ral-Clan

[Roamer]

Yes, it still there in Simple Burner (for how long ?). And that's the only way you can get LP4 with 2nd gen. unit and the latest SonicStage. But IMO there are better encoding options anyway ...

[zerodB]

LP4 is perhaps still useful for podcasts and audiobooks. I've never used it personally, I'm just interested.

[raintheory]

Wait a second. Are you saying that "standard" LP4 is not supported (or exists) at all in the newest versions of SonicStage? What about in Simpleburner?

I bought a "regular" Minidisc NET-MD walkman for my wife this past Christmas and beforehand I filled up a disc for her in LP4 mode with my "old" non NET capable MZ-R700. She loves the five hours of music LP4 gives her, and honestly, she CANNOT tell the difference (I certainly can - but she's one of those casual listeners who is okay with LP4).

So if we upgrade to SonicStage 3.4 (if and when I get a Hi-MD walkman), will she still be able to create LP4 discs on her older NET-MD with this version of SS?

I still see LP4 as an option when transferring to a NetMD formatted MiniDisc with SonicStage 3.4 (see attached screenshot)

I think it was just dropped as a codec for transferring in HiMD mode.

So you should be fine to create standard NetMD discs with LP4....

SimpleBurner has this option as well, yes.

Edited February 5, 2006 by raintheory