UK DAB vs HiMD vs ATRAC3

[Mr_Bass_Man]

Last weekend I was busy in the house doing varioius jobs, and I wasn't able to sit down and listen to some music I knew in advance was coming up on BBC Radio 3, so I decided I would record it to play back later.

As I have a DAB radio with an optical output, and a HiMD machine, and the piece was likely to be longer than 80 minutes, I decided to record the programme on my NH900 from the DAB receiver, setting it going before the piece and stopping it sometime after.

The piece was Bruckner's 7th Symphony, a piece rich in strings brass and dynamics, though it is essentially a fairly quiet and moody piece.

This all went very well, but I decided after having recorded the programme as described, that I would transfer the Bruckner (minus the bit of programme recorded either side) and transfer it to "SP" format, as I have a number of non-HiMD machines (!) and wanted to be able to play it back on any of them.

So some time later I transferred the HiMD recording to my (rather ancient) PC, converted the file to WAV format in SonicStage, edited the WAV file using GoldWave, and then transferred the edited files to a NetMD machine, again using SonicStage. " I am aware that "SP" from SonicStage is really "LP2" padded out to work on SP players)

When I played back the resulting performance, the quality of the recording was not as good as I would have expected. Though it could not be described as horrendous, it soon started to irritate me, is it had a kind of harshness about it, and is what I would describe as a "gritty" or "grainy" sound.

Somewhat disappointed I set out to try to work out where the problem occurred in the above process, first by transferring to a "top of the range" NetMD machine (my JB-980 deck) - the result was the same.

Then I played back the WAV file on my computer (it has a reasonable Creative sound card). Still grainy or gritty.

I toyed with the idea of burning a CD using the WAV files, but decided in the end to simply connect my NH900 to my HiFi and play back the original unedited recorded piece.

The result :- "grainy" or "gritty".

The format of the original recording is "HiLP"

I know the quality of DAB in the UK gets a lot of bad press - the programme was originally transmitted at 160kB/s in MP2 - but normally BBC Radio 3 at this bitrate sounds "acceptable" to my ears.

Other recordings I have made from the radio in this manner have been quite unoffensive, though the material may not have been quite so demanding.

Has anyone had any similar exeriences?

[1kyle]

The Bit rate of DAB in the UK is a bit disappointing --even BBC R3 (Classical music service) is not that great and in some parts of the UK you might still be better off with "Old Fashioned" FM.

The best source for a decent Bit rate is via a Sky (in the UK) Satellite Dish and if you've got an optical connection and the new Sky HD (High definition TV Box with optical out) then this will be better than DAB -- for some BBC broadcasts (R3) it will be pretty much CD or even exceed CD quality --check for transmission times as some pre-recorded stuff is still compressed. In any even it won't be lower than 192 kbs.

BTW you don't need to suscribe to SKY TV for BBC programs (radio and TV) -- They've even abandoned soft encryption --all transmissions are 100% in the clear. For those in Continental Europe you'll need the dish to be at 28 deg E rather than the standard Astra satellite set at 19 deg then you can pick this stuff up as well FREE.

For more info on UK DAB Bit rates

http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/bbc_bitrates.htm

Finally --how did you record the original program --if you started out with a lossy format any amount of "Converting to WAV" and converting again will just degrade the quality even more.

The JB980 is an exceptional piece of kit -- any decently recorded MD in SP mode will sound stunning provided the original source is fine.

I've you've got a DAB radio you can plug the optical out - (The sony XDR-X1 has an optical out as some others do as well) into the optical in on your JB980 and use the timer feature.

I think most of your problem has been that your original audio capture bit rate wan't high enough to start with.

Cheers

-K

Edited March 11, 2006 by 1kyle

[The Low Volta]

HiLP really is too low a bitrate to record any music... especially when the source material is low bitrate to start with... the combo: grainy, harsh and artifact ridden non-music

lesson learned, even when recording from the radio: for music, never go <HiSP on a HiMD!!

[Richard]

HiLP really is too low a bitrate to record any music... especially when the source material is low bitrate to start with... the combo: grainy, harsh and artifact ridden non-music

lesson learned, even when recording from the radio: for music, never go <HiSP on a HiMD!!

I agree with Volta Hi-LP was proabably too low a bitrate to start with. I have a digital cable TV receiver through which I can also receive various radio stations. This has an optical out and I did some tests recording direct to my NH1's optical in in LP2 and I was suprised at how good this actually sounded when played back. The good thing about some of these stations is also that they are 24hrs music with no talking in between.

[Mr_Bass_Man]

I agree with Volta Hi-LP was proabably too low a bitrate to start with. I have a digital cable TV receiver through which I can also receive various radio stations. This has an optical out and I did some tests recording direct to my NH1's optical in in LP2 and I was suprised at how good this actually sounded when played back. The good thing about some of these stations is also that they are 24hrs music with no talking in between.

Thanks all for the comments so far, I find that they basically all make a great deal of sense.

The conclusion I reached in the investigation as to where the main quality loss problem was is that it was on the original 160kB/s DAB recorded at HiLP.

I chose to record the DAB as I wouldn't have to hover over the machine to adjust the recording level as I would have had to have done if I'd recorded the programme from FM (I get a fully quieting FM signal, and that is generally what I use for listening).

The HiLP to WAV to (pseudo) SP conversion wasn't the main problem (that is a worthwhile piece of information in is own right).

However I now need to work out which (if any) of the following permutations are acceptable for "demanding" music :-

DAB at 192 kB/s (the maximum it ever is) to HiSP (the best bet)

DAB at 160 kB/s (what BBC Radio 3 runs at when the DAB ensemble is fully utilised) to HiSP

DAB at 192kB/s to HiLP.

DAB at either of the above rates to "genuine" SP missing out the NH900 but recorded directly onto my JB-980 (or the JE-510 for that matter ...)

I would imagine from advice from the contributors, whose opinions I value is that only the first option stands any chance of producing truly satisfactory results.

Actually now I think about it, I could arrange side-by side simultaneous recordings with one of my MD decks recording the FM receiver via analogue line in ...

Up to now I have stayed clear of the "LP2 quality" argument as I generally find that acceptable - a peronal / subjective thing, I know.

Edited March 11, 2006 by Mr_Bass_Man

[pauljones52]

Hi LP recorded from a high quality FM receiver set to mono sounds really good actually! I was very surprised. I believe HI LP sounds better when recording from an analogue source rather than an optical source, as the analogue recording tends to muddy the sound a bit more, resulting in what I would describe as smoother artifacts (less harsh metallic sounding artifacts).

[greenmachine]

analog -> wav -> 160kbps mp2 -> wav -> 64kbps atrac3+ -> wav -> 132kbps atrac3 -> wav -> 292kbps atrac -> wav -> analog

= too many conversions, hi-lp propably being the major weak point.

[1kyle]

If you want to listen on a deck then I'd go straight from DAB (optical out if you have it) direct to SP via optical IN on your deck (Or even LP2 if you must) -- unless the recording is longer than 80 mins @ SP mode.

Then if you need to make a Hi-MD SP disk you can then use the optical out from your deck to the optical in on the MD unit.

The problem with starting from the Hi-MD unit is that you don't have any optical out -- another possible alternative would be to optically record at HI-SP with your HI-MD unit, save to SS, play with SS on the computer using a sound card with an optical out and connect the optical out on the computer to the optical in on your deck where you could then get a reasonable SP disk on your deck --- you could also split the recording over more disks if you needed to.

The only reason I'd use the Hi-MD in the first place is that if you want longer than 60/74/80 mins in SP depending on the disks you are using --you'll have to be around to swap disks when they get full up if you record straight to the deck.

The Hi-MD @ HI-SP will give you nearly 8 hours of UNATTENDED recording time.

Cheers

-K

Edited March 11, 2006 by 1kyle

[Mr_Bass_Man]

When I set out to make the recording, I never intended it to be a demonstration of the capabilities of any particular broadcasting or recording medium, I just wanted to listen at my leisure to this specific version of Bruckner's 7th Symphony.

Listening to the piece in spite of the artefacts has resulted in me ordering the CD from an EBay trader ...

However the tangent I found myself spinning off at has certainly been an interesting one!

As I wasn't sure how long the recording was going to be (as it turned out it is about 77min long) and needed to record it unattended, I opted for a "longer" format, and recording on HiMD meant I could subsequently edit the recording on my PC relatively easily.

The edited version would just fit onto an 80min blank so it seemed like a good idea.

However if I could only repeat the exact same exercise but use HiSP instead of HiLP then I would be wiser still!

All the good advice about transferring between formats and bitrates appear to be perfectly correct and valid, what intreagues me now is my own subjective tolerance of the various permutations.

Having said that, the comment from MattJ about using analogue line in to smooth out the artefacts appears on the face of it to defy logic, but it also appears that we all hear imperfections in a different way.

Earlier today I recorded another piece off the radio - this time FM to SP using the line in jack, and the result is virtually indistinguishable (to me) from the original. No surprises there then!

Thanks for all the interesting contributions ...

[Late Edit :- I now have the original CD recording of the piece in question, and to my ears, the sound is "rather harsh" in places - maybe I have been a little too harsh in my criticism of the various format conversions ... It might even be my ears ! ! ! ]

Edited March 23, 2006 by Mr_Bass_Man