Am I kidding myself?

[hogarth27]

I have a good ear. Well, I did. I worked in fine-arts broadcasting, with the best audio equipment available, and I knew how music was supposed to sound as I played oboe and english horn in semi-pro orchs from time to time on the side, as well as alto sax and baritone sax in your friendly neighborhood dance bands.

So out of habit, I paid attention to such things as FLAC wnen I noticed them.

I think I still have a good ear, but at the age of 74 I no longer hear that high whine of the TV set or many other very high frequencies..

So I wonder if I really hear any differences in MP3, FLAC,ATRAC and such, and does it really matter whether I use MP3 or ATRAC?

I still listen on good equipment.

So, is my interest in no-loss to be only academic?

Feel free to doscuss.

[bobt]

Hi There,

I'm 55 and know I have hearing damage, but I can still hear what sounds bad, my advice try what you want and let your ears be your guide

Happy listening,

Bob

[Sparky191]

You only know by blind testing.

[boojum]

I find that MP3 files encoded with LAME at V2 sound pretty darned good. It is hard to tell them from uncompressed. So much so that to me it is a trivial difference. When I want ~8 hours of music on one CD: LAME V2. YMMV

[tekdroid]

I think I still have a good ear, but at the age of 74 I no longer hear that high whine of the TV set or many other very high frequencies..

So I wonder if I really hear any differences in MP3, FLAC,ATRAC and such, and does it really matter whether I use MP3 or ATRAC?

I still listen on good equipment.

So, is my interest in no-loss to be only academic?

Feel free to doscuss.

it's not only high frequencies that get butchered with lossy compression, sound from the whole spectrum do, as well as imaging and general fidelity. Load up foobar. Open two identical files in there, one lossy, one lossless. Ctrl+click to select them both. Right-click on one of the selected files.

Select:

Utils

then

ABX two tracks...

click OK

Take it from there.

A lot of it is down to your equipment and lossy encodings, obviously. If your PC has onboard sound and poor 'phones/ amplification/ speakers, the chances of picking up differences will probably be "here and there" stuff.

Flying in the face of if-you-don't-hear-it-it's-not-important, I feel that sounds are far more important that given credit for, and even masked sounds play a role in our hearing and perception in the brain, and there are positive health effects to keeping sounds as close to what we evolved on for millions of years.

[Strungup]

Flying in the face of if-you-don't-hear-it-it's-not-important, I feel that sounds are far more important that given credit for, and even masked sounds play a role in our hearing and perception in the brain, and there are positive health effects to keeping sounds as close to what we evolved on for millions of years.

That statement , actually expresses an appreciation of the marvelous complexity of the human design .

[Sparky191]

Yes placebo's work.

[tekdroid]

Yes placebo's work.

Not sure what you meant by this comment. The health effects of lossy audio have yet to be heavily studied, but that has nothing to do with pretending to hear stuff that's not there, if that's what you're implying by that comment (just a guess).

A lot of audio is in fact non-perceptible and can be thrown out without noticing. I don't dispute that. Whether or not is has long-term or short-term effects is something I'd love a conclusion on (quite aside from perceptible sonic differences).

Guitarfxr, thanks for your comment. I'm a big fan of nature.

[Sparky191]

Not sure what you meant by this comment. The health effects of lossy audio have yet to be heavily studied, but that has nothing to do with pretending to hear stuff that's not there, if that's what you're implying by that comment (just a guess).

A lot of audio is in fact non-perceptible and can be thrown out without noticing. I don't dispute that. Whether or not is has long-term or short-term effects is something I'd love a conclusion on (quite aside from perceptible sonic differences).

Guitarfxr, thanks for your comment. I'm a big fan of nature.

has the health effect of lossy audio been studied at all even lightly.

[bluecrab]

has the health effect of lossy audio been studied at all even lightly.

If lossy sound has any deleterious health effects, then there are more than 58,000 of us right here who could be very sick puppies. ;-)

[tekdroid]

has the health effect of lossy audio been studied at all even lightly.

Noise pollution has been studied quite a bit and its effects on the brain and body are real. To the ear - with lossy codecs - the dynamically-changing sound is constantly reaching the ears is quite bit different to sounds with a basis in a nature and at least mimicking physical objects. Psychoacoustic codecs constantly drop what is masked by the brain - many times a second - so the sound reaching the ears is alien, for want of a better word, which, as far as the body is concerned, may as well be another form of noise pollution, despite our perception telling us it's 'the same'.

If simple noise pollution can have bad effects on us (which emit unnatural sounds but are based totally on physical objects), imagine lossy codecs - or at least the potential for lossy codecs affecting our health. Even different music has effects on growth and health. I have no doubt different sounds do, too - especially ones mankind has coded for a usable trade-off on storage and transmission devices (and no other reason).

I don't think it matters whether there are thousands of studies or none. Lots of new products come out on the market and only later are their health effects assessed. Everything from chemicals, artificial fibres to different lifestyles and diet have had an effect on human health (and the environment) measured in the billions of dollars - and still do.

[Sparky191]

Noise pollution has been studied quite a bit and its effects on the brain and body are real. To the ear - with lossy codecs - the dynamically-changing sound is constantly reaching the ears is quite bit different to sounds with a basis in a nature and at least mimicking physical objects. Psychoacoustic codecs constantly drop what is masked by the brain - many times a second - so the sound reaching the ears is alien, for want of a better word, which, as far as the body is concerned, may as well be another form of noise pollution, despite our perception telling us it's 'the same'.

If simple noise pollution can have bad effects on us (which emit unnatural sounds but are based totally on physical objects), imagine lossy codecs - or at least the potential for lossy codecs affecting our health. Even different music has effects on growth and health. I have no doubt different sounds do, too - especially ones mankind has coded for a usable trade-off on storage and transmission devices (and no other reason).

I don't think it matters whether there are thousands of studies or none. Lots of new products come out on the market and only later are their health effects assessed. Everything from chemicals, artificial fibres to different lifestyles and diet have had an effect on human health (and the environment) measured in the billions of dollars - and still do.

So thats no. Or Lossy audio is Noise pollution. I'm not entirely sure. What do you mean by Noise pollution?

[bobt]

So thats no. Or Lossy audio is Noise pollution. I'm not entirely sure. What do you mean by Noise pollution?

Outkast, U2, Beyonce, Fergie, Rap, Hip Hop

[Sparky191]

Outkast, U2, Beyonce, Fergie, Rap, Hip Hop

Fair enuff LOL.

[bobt]

Fair enuff LOL.

OTOH the other noise pollution being talked about could be stuff like industrial noise, jets taking off (not a problem here), loud car stereos (mine doesn't count), drone of a/c units, hum of transformers, etc, I still like my first list tho

Bob

[Strungup]

U2 isnt Noise Pollution (at least not the first three albums)

[Sparky191]

OTOH the other noise pollution being talked about could be stuff like industrial noise, jets taking off (not a problem here), loud car stereos (mine doesn't count), drone of a/c units, hum of transformers, etc, I still like my first list tho

Bob

Yeah but your bothered by that as you can hear it. Being bothered by Lossy Audio would be being bothered by something you can't hear.

Its like those teenager deterrents

http://www.compoundsecurity.co.uk/deterrent_news_1.html

[Strungup]

Teenager Detergents????

Edited July 21, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[Sparky191]

U2 isnt Noise Pollution (at least not the first three albums)

The early stuff I like. From the Joshua Tedium onwards I was bored. The last album seemed like it might a return closer to their original vigor. Didn't buy it though.

[Strungup]

The early stuff I like. From the Joshua Tedium onwards I was bored. The last album seemed like it might a return closer to their original vigor. Didn't buy it though.

Joshua Tree is the one that makes a Statement in the most graphic terms , Bullet the Blue Sky , being a direct shot at the problems of Class division , Money going where it isnt needed , and the Struggle of the majority of Americans against a Leading class of eleteists . The problems of Urban America ,Poverty , Addiction etc .

So that is Noise to you eh? hmm If it actually says something ,then you don't want to hear it............. interesting

[Sparky191]

The lyrics in general mean nothing to me. I don't remember lyrics, or usually hear them. I've always been far more interested in the music than the song. Probably because I play music but can't sing a note. So theres that, and it was overplayed at the time. Ditto their later stuff. Across their later albums I like the odd song, but wouldn't be a fan of the later albums in general. Maybe the politics make more sense from a US perspective. I'm reminded of some graffiti you used to see a lot. "The problem with God is he thinks hes Bono". To think of it, I listen to a lot of stuff that I don't know the language. Never really bothered me I didn't know the lyrics. Its probably woeful stuff.

Edited July 22, 2007 by Sparky191

[Strungup]

I live in a Country , " Where the steets have no names" ..... or at least I cant read them

Agreed with the airtime , overplayed on the radio . But uncompressed on the Home system , it s always a good listen , I introduced one of my Japanese guitar students to it Yestrday , specifially that song." Bullet the Blue Sky", , I was trying to get across to him how Music is made from Emotion , which is sorely suppressed in Japan . That and they dont have the clas distintions and problems of the US . The Wife came in and described what she saw living in the US , and how that song relates , Section 8 neighbourhoods , Deep South poor neighborhoods , Parts of town you can walk in then turn a corner and your in a dangerous section of town . They dont have that here in Japan .

Then when we jammed on the scales I had shown him , I asked him to "Feel " what each note said , I played chords , he played scales , and it kliked , the lights came on , he got a sense of it .......end of lesson he said , "Today ... was VERY good lesson ,, gambarimasu !"

And God doesnt think he is Bono , ..... Although the idea of being a Musician isnt far off!

Edited July 22, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[bobt]

I live in a Country , " Where the steets have no names" ..... or at least I cant read them

Agreed with the airtime , overplayed on the radio . But uncompressed on the Home system , it s always a good listen , I introduced one of my Japanese guitar students to it Yestrday , specifially that song." Bullet the Blue Sky", , I was trying to get across to him how Music is made from Emotion , which is sorely suppressed in Japan . That and they dont have the clas distintions and problems of the US . The Wife came in and described what she saw living in the US , and how that song relates , Section 8 neighbourhoods , Deep South poor neighborhoods , Parts of town you can walk in then turn a corner and your in a dangerous section of town . They dont have that here in Japan .

Then when we jammed on the scales I had shown him , I asked him to "Feel " what each note said , I played chords , he played scales , and it kliked , the lights came on , he got a sense of it .......end of lesson he said , "Today ... was VERY good lesson ,, gambarimasu !"

And God doesnt think he is Bono , ..... Although the idea of being a Musician isnt far off!

To me one note from any Manfred Mann Earth Band has more feeling than anything U2 has ever done, I think Bono is a drunk rich kid who likes to spout off, but fails to put his money where his mouth is. as in funneling his income out of Ireland so he doesn't pay taxes. That's plainly two faced, save your country before you worry about someone else.

Just my thoughts though.

Bob

[Strungup]

Wow thats harsh Bob ,

at present he is spoiled , we can all agree on that , but Those first few , I cant concur , although Manfred Mann is High on My list as well .

But I wasnt Blinded By The Light , .... I had my shades on trying to look cool

[A440]

Strangely enough, I actually met Bono briefly after a concert.

He is a completely charming guy--pays absolutely full attention to you when he's talking to you, and doesn't act conceited at all. He knows he is famous ,and he definitely loves being a rock star, but unlike a lot of them, he wants to leverage that stardom to do good. The guy knows how to use his theatricality and charisma both as an entertain and an economic activist. And he has been sincere enough about his giant do-gooder projects to actually spend a lot of time with Treasury Secretaries, Finance Ministers, etc.--politicians that most of us would have nothing to say to, much less accompany on fact-finding trips. Charming them, and changing their minds, probably isn't easy.

I thought All That You Can't Leave Behind was nothing more than its singles, and Pop was a letdown, but Vertigo is pretty amazing for a band that's been at it for so many years. I remember at the time that in interviews, the band said Bono was off saving the world while they made tracks, so maybe it's the Edge's album more than Bono's, but it definitely rocks. Don't know about the Irish tax situation, but I think Bono's and U2's net effect on the world has been positive. More than I can say for Coldplay or Fergie.

[tekdroid]

So thats no.

For all we know there could be many studies being done on lossy audio and its health effects. It doesn't add anything to this argument, which is just my personal feeling on where this is going. Would this add weight to the argument for you? Obviously it would. Well, we can wait for conclusive proof before we decide on limiting exposure to things we can control which might be harmful, but then again we might not. It's a choice we are free to make. Not asking you to fall in line. You're free to be reactive when some study hits or the damage is made known some way...

Or Lossy audio is Noise pollution. I'm not entirely sure. What do you mean by Noise pollution?

Traffic noise. Whine of computers. Aircraft noise, machinery noise, factory noise. You know, modern living. Look up Noise Pollution.

Lossy audio may well have the same effects (I think worse) that noise pollution has. Because the actual sound hitting our ears is very different to those sounds without data-reduction (even though our perception gives us the impression they are more-or-less the same).

Edited July 22, 2007 by tekdroid

[Sparky191]

I what noise pollution you can hear is. I just can't think of an example we can't hear.

[hogarth27]

it's not only high frequencies that get butchered with lossy compression, sound from the whole spectrum do, as well as imaging and general fidelity. Load up foobar. Open two identical files in there, one lossy, one lossless. Ctrl+click to select them both. Right-click on one of the selected files.

Select:

Utils

then

ABX two tracks...

click OK

Take it from there.

A lot of it is down to your equipment and lossy encodings, obviously. If your PC has onboard sound and poor 'phones/ amplification/ speakers, the chances of picking up differences will probably be "here and there" stuff.

Flying in the face of if-you-don't-hear-it-it's-not-important, I feel that sounds are far more important that given credit for, and even masked sounds play a role in our hearing and perception in the brain, and there are positive health effects to keeping sounds as close to what we evolved on for millions of years.

What a neat little utility that is! It could deflate some egos though.

When I looked to see whatg I had in both lossless and MP3, I found both flac and OGG copies of the Piazzolla album, THE ROUGH DANCER AND THE CYCLICAL NIGHT. Didn't have it on MP3, but I do have the original CD on American Clave, not the Nonesuch, and I ripped that to get my MP3.

In short, I could always distinguish the MP3 from anything else, but I couldn't justify my preference for the flac over the OGG with anything concrete.

That answers myn original question then, and a bit more.

Thanks!

[Sparky191]

I came to the same conclusion and standardised on higher rate MP3 for my library. The only thing to consider is if you improve the quality of your gear in the future perhaps then you would notice the difference in quality. But my thinking on that is, if I end up in that happy situation I'd be happy to re-rip my music to higher quality. Its a compromise that I'm happy with for the now.

My focus has switched to getting better versions of my favorite music. I've been checking these places...

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=13

http://store.acousticsounds.com/