Conversion to WAV problem

[JimHatton]

Hi All

If this has been covered before, sorry. I need some urgent help here and I'd be really grateful if anyone has the answer. I made a recording on a Hi MD 1GB disc and effectively filled the disc completely. I have made long recordings like this before, but not quite filling the disc. I use Sonic Stage to transfer the atrac file to my PC. I have it set up so that it automatically converts the atrac file to WAV. Normally I use another software package to analyse the sound file and do any cropping or whatever. These files can be quite large, several GB long is quite usual. The problem file is in fact about 4.5GB long. The download by sonic stage was without problem. The conversion to WAV seemed to go well and the file size was consistent with the length of the recording.

The problem is that when I try to open the WAV file with my normal editor (Cooledit Pro) the aparent length is only 70 minutes or so, not the 7 hours or more that it should be. If I try to open the WAV file with any audio prog, even media player, the result is the same. As I said, the file size is consistent with the number of hours I recorded, I can't seem to find a way to recover from this. Worse yet, I committed the cardinal sin and since the transfer and conversion seemed to go OK I re-formatted the disc and also deleted the atrac file.

I would be so grateful for any help on this problem. The recording is quite important and represents the only opportunity I will ever have to record audio from this particular location under those circumstances.

Thanks in advance.

Edited July 14, 2008 by Thermocline

[greenmachine]

Wav files larger than 2 GB can be problematic.

What you could try:

Go to http://audacity.sourceforge.net/ download, install and start the latest stable or beta version. From the menu, choose File -> Import -> Raw data to import the affected file. Try to open using the default options (16bit - 44100Hz). If that worked, use export from the file menu. FLAC is a lossless compression format and should be able to handle files larger than 2 GB.

[Strungup]

In the Fat 32 environment 2gb is generally a Max file size for WAV , I am trying to figure how your getting more than that as a single WAV ????

As for the reformatting , your stuck that audio is gone , ......... it is a good practice to at least put some well spaced track marks in the recording ( they can always be joined in the editor)

Sorry to hear what happened , and I do know the feeling , I accidently erased a disc of Jam Sessions , that I have had with some very very cool musicians , Live stuff from a Blues bar in VA. and They to were irreplaceable those nights wont ever happen again .

[sfbp]

I made a recording on a Hi MD 1GB disc and effectively filled the disc completely. I have made long recordings like this before, but not quite filling the disc. I use Sonic Stage to transfer the atrac file to my PC. I have it set up so that it automatically converts the atrac file to WAV. Normally I use another software package to analyse the sound file and do any cropping or whatever. These files can be quite large, several GB long is quite usual. The problem file is in fact about 4.5GB long. The download by sonic stage was without problem. The conversion to WAV seemed to go well and the file size was consistent with the length of the recording.

The problem is that when I try to open the WAV file with my normal editor (Cooledit Pro) the aparent length is only 70 minutes or so, not the 7 hours or more that it should be. If I try to open the WAV file with any audio prog, even media player, the result is the same. As I said, the file size is consistent with the number of hours I recorded, I can't seem to find a way to recover from this. Worse yet, I committed the cardinal sin and since the transfer and conversion seemed to go OK I re-formatted the disc and also deleted the atrac file.

1. CoolEdit reads the file into memory. Any memory over 2GB is likely to be problematic. My copy of cool edit chokes the whole system when reading in very large files, because nearly all memory is taken away from other programs already running. I don't think CoolEdit can be set up to use virtual memory properly. But maybe they improved it and I didn't upgrade.

2. CoolEdit was written way back before large files were common (1996 or so). I wouldn't expect it to deal with files of this size. My own practice is to put automatic track marks and make a series of files (usually I break into 10 min chunks but you could do 1 hour at a time). This only helps you next time.

3. With any luck the file is in the recycle bin. Even if it isn't some tools may find the deleted file. More on this if you need.

4. I don't think you can just split an audio file using a file splitting tool. However it's JUST possible that SS will allow you to divide the file before exporting - ie the problem might be in CoolEdit. Look up "Divide" in the Help index for sonic stage. There's a trick - you can only do it when "All Tracks" are displayed.

5. There's no way you are on FAT, contradicting the previous posters. Max FAT size is 4GB, period. There are also some problems with some of the programs written for the Windows 98 era which didn't support more than ***2*** GB properly (files might exist but would show with a negative file length). So you are, ipso facto, on NTFS.

6. If you DO manage to split the file using something not designed for audio files, I am reasonably sure the information about audio is stored at the beginning. This means you could truncate at about 4GB (must be less I think, 4GB might look like 0) and at least get the audio up to that point. I reckon the rest is dead unless some genius manages to figure out what header to splice on to the .7GB chunk.

Ah.... you could IMPORT it back into SS and divide it there.

All in all, dividing it in Sonic Stage into 1GB chunks is probably your best bet once you have found the file.

Let us know how you get on.

Stephen

[1kyle]

What I'd do with this is to convert it into FLAC first and then do your editing. There's quadrillions of programs that can handle FLAC and you get a LOSSLESS file that is between 35 - 50% smaller than the WAV which isn't too bad for a LOSSLESS file.

This (Free version) program will allow you to edit FLAC directly (and other formats) and works on a MAC as well.

http://nch.com.au/wavepad/index.html

Incidentally if you want to play the file on your computer WINAMP will play FLAC files directly. If you use LINUX then FLAC is also no problem as there's plenty of open source stuff available.

I think in any case if you are using Windows files > 2GB can be problematic with FAT32 even though in theory much larger file sizes are possible - use NTFS.

Personally I'd only use Windows for getting the music from the MD ===> to the computer then I'd use Linux for all the editing etc. -- You never have a problem with File size etc.

A stupid Windows problem also (sorry for the computer discussion here --but I think your problem is more related to the inherent limitations of Windows than actually editing the file per se) is that Windows will only "See" 2GB of RAM however much storage you have in your machine. Windows will also by default probably allocate to virtual memory / swap space the same amount that it uses for REAL memory --so if your computer has 1GB ram chances are that Windows will allocate 1GB for virtual memory.

Handling 4GB files in this situation will cause Windows to do all sorts of strange things. -- You can manually increase Windows Virtual memory allocation by going to Control panel==>system===>advanced and set the amount there.

As the previous poster said splitting the file is also fine provided you know where to split it. You can re-combine it again afterwards.

Incidentally pretty well all the latest Linux kernels (2.6 >=) support NTFS read AND WRITE straight out of the box. Ensure you have package ntfs-3g installed and mount your device mount -t ntfs-3g -o rw /dev/xxxx /mnt/yyy then you'll be able to edit at will.

Cheers

-K

Edited July 15, 2008 by 1kyle

[marcnet]

Have you tried HIMDRenderer to convert the large Atrac (OMA) file into something other than .wav. It can convert directly to .flac without needing to convert to .wav first.

[1kyle]

Have you tried HIMDRenderer to convert the large Atrac (OMA) file into something other than .wav. It can convert directly to .flac without needing to convert to .wav first.

Hi Marc -- I think you are working on the same principles as I am --convert to FLAC first and then edit the file.

The HIMDRenderer works fine for this -- I recorded a series from the Radio on to a 1GB disc (around 6 - 7 hrs) and used your program to convert to flac --- worked great --job well done.

Cheers.

-K

Edited July 15, 2008 by 1kyle

[JimHatton]

Thanks for the replies. I am now sure that the problem is to do with the size limitations regarding WAV files. The file itself is 4.6GB which is much more than the 4GB limit. I have tried downloading some WAV splitters in the hope that the file could be split into two smaller files. The problem with these is that they either only see 70 mins of audio or they report a bad WAV header in which the reported length does not match the file size.

As I mentioned already, due to disk space issues, I deleted the atrac file from my HD when the converstion to WAV appeared to have been successfully done. As I only have one or two 1GB disks, I also reformatted the minidisk itself and it has since been re-used. Consequently I do not have access to the original files to convert them to FLAC.

I guess this was a lesson in not jumping the gun. Of course the main issue is that I will not be able to get access to the particular location I did the recording in, it has now been demolished. Just in case anyone is interested, I run a paranormal investigation team and we use Minidisks to record sound files from the locations we visit. Some of the recorders are left running in the same place the whole time we are at the location. We happened to be at this particular location for a bit longer than usual. Discussing this with my brother, he also has a couple of over-sized files we have not been able to recover. A solution would be very useful.

Thanks again.

[greenmachine]

Have you tried the method described in post #2?

[sfbp]

Are you sure you cannot re-import the .WAV file into SS? (yeah yeah, I know everyone hates SS but it's just temporary so you can split up the file). You will have to convert it back to OpenMGAudio (choose convert on the right-click menu of the track).

I am not certain about this - but it looks like SS does almost zero work when importing a WAV file, thereby confirming the contention that OpenMG Audio (for 1411 kbps) is simply a wav file with a header stuck on the front.

I just tried it out (with a small file). The only thing I had to do was to DELETE the wave file (from the properties of the file) before SS would let me divide the file. Sorry I didn't have time to do it with a large file, but if my theory is correct that won't be a big deal.

Save a copy of the monster file before you do this, painful as that is.

Another thought: if you have Nero, try opening the wave file in their Wave Editor. Maybe Nero fixed whatever problems CoolEdit didn't. You're going to need Nero to burn that DVD that you save the file on, right?

[JimHatton]

SUCCESS !!!

I tried the technique in the post #2 of this thread and imported the WAV file as raw data into soundforge. Rather than save as a FLAC file I managed to split the imported WAV into 2 smaller WAVs each of about 2.3 GB long. Both of these files open perfectly in Cooledit (my preferred editor).

I am so very grateful for all the help.

Thanks indeed.

Thermocline

[greenmachine]

Glad we could help.

[Avrin]

Wav files larger than 2 GB can be problematic.

And they should be. The WAV format is a container, which can hold anything, although it usually holds raw PCM audio. Same as AVI is a container, which may hold uncompressed video, DV, MPEG4, DivX. and other stuff. A WAV container file may not hold more than 2 Gb according to its specification. Well, there are ways to make it hold 4 Gb, but these are not quite up to any specifications.

So, avoid making any WAVs that may exceed 2 Gb.

P.S. Thermocline, I am glad that your problem is solved in the easiest possible way. Audacity doesn't care about any specifications - that's why I'll never use it. CoolEdit, now called Adobe Audition, is the program! I am using version 1.5, which rocks under my Windows 2000.

.

Edited July 15, 2008 by Avrin

[greenmachine]

And they should be. The WAV format is a container, which can hold anything, although it usually holds raw PCM audio. Same as AVI is a container, which may hold uncompressed video, DV, MPEG4, DivX. and other stuff. A WAV container file may not hold more than 2 Gb according to its specification. Well, there are ways to make it hold 4 Gb, but these are not quite up to any specifications.

So, avoid making any WAVs that may exceed 2 Gb.

P.S. Thermocline, I am glad that your problem is solved in the easiest possible way. Audacity doesn't care about any specifications - that's why I'll never use it. CoolEdit, now called Adobe Audition, is the program! I am using version 1.5, which rocks under my Windows 2000.

.

Hey, that's exactly my version of choice under XP. Great functionality and very efficient (filesize, speed, etc.). I've just recommended Audacity because it's free and easily available to everyone. Thanks for the info about the 2 GB limit.

[Avrin]

Still, I wouldn't recommend Audacity to anyone, since it is the only audio-editing program that BSODs my system when trying to OK some options changes. And the BSOD is related to the audio driver, which is a plain vanilla Realtek AC'97 in my case.

[1kyle]

Still, I wouldn't recommend Audacity to anyone, since it is the only audio-editing program that BSODs my system when trying to OK some options changes. And the BSOD is related to the audio driver, which is a plain vanilla Realtek AC'97 in my case.

I think a current expression is "Use whatever floats your Boat".

I'd still go for my original idea

What I'd do with this is to convert it into FLAC first and then do your editing. There's quadrillions of programs that can handle FLAC and you get a LOSSLESS file that is between 35 - 50% smaller than the WAV which isn't too bad for a LOSSLESS file.

This (Free version) program will allow you to edit FLAC directly (and other formats) and works on a MAC as well.

http://nch.com.au/wavepad/index.html

But of course up to you.

(BTW not related to this post --but unless you disable the touchpad on some laptops the cursor has an annoying habit of jumping randomly when entering data -- means you have to edit several times before a post is OK otherwise data entry is gibberish after a few lines. (Windows XP / VISTA ). Linux (SUSE 11.0 64 bit) seems fine

Cheers

-K

Edited July 16, 2008 by 1kyle