Help with burning a CD from SonicStage 4.3

[mercurius]

I have encountered a problem with taking a recording made on my HiMD, which I have imported into SonicStage, and trying to burn it to an audio CD. It transfers across OK but I have noticed that on the CD the recording 'jumps' at the track marks. The recording sounds fine though on the minidisc.

Does anyone know what the cause might be and whether there is anyway to transfer a HiMD recording to CD without this happening?

I have a MZ-RH910 and use SonicStage 4.3.

mercurius

[sinus]

maybe try another software. do you have a burning program? like infrarecorder?

try it and be sure to disable track pauses in the options (Nero for example hast this option)

[MDane]

I have encountered a problem with taking a recording made on my HiMD, which I have imported into SonicStage, and trying to burn it to an audio CD. It transfers across OK but I have noticed that on the CD the recording 'jumps' at the track marks. The recording sounds fine though on the minidisc.

Does anyone know what the cause might be and whether there is anyway to transfer a HiMD recording to CD without this happening?

I have a MZ-RH910 and use SonicStage 4.3.

mercurius

This is inevitable. You can only do "gapless" playback on Atrac devices. For that matter, this even occurs when playing back an Atrac device through the USB of a compatible Sony car deck or on a burnt ATRAC CD. Yes, this really sucks. In theory you could remove the track marks before making the audio CD...but I don't know if the 910 has a "combine" feature (my M200 doesn't).

[sfbp]

I don't know if the 910 has a "combine" feature (my M200 doesn't).

Sure it does. Position the MD player at a track mark in pause mode. (actually easier to pause during the track before the gap or the track after it, then press >> or << respectively). Now press T-mark. That will remove the trackmark.

Of course if you have downloaded said track from SonicStage, you better combine tracks in SonicStage first, because the MD won't let you mess with downloaded tracks.

That (combining tracks using SS) is a rather more esoteric operation, so let us not burden ourselves with it unless we have to

You asked me about this a while back - you are right, there is no way to get gapless in Atrac CD. Sigh.

[Avrin]

Does the recording play normally from SonicStage itself (i.e., gapless, no jumps, etc.)?

Anyway, the only progam actualy able to properly burn Audio CDs on a PC is EAC.

[MDane]

1. Position the MD player at a track mark in pause mode. (actually easier to pause during the track before the gap or the track after it, then press >> or << respectively). Now press T-mark. That will remove the trackmark.

2. Of course if you have downloaded said track from SonicStage, you better combine tracks in SonicStage first, because the MD won't let you mess with downloaded tracks.

3. That (combining tracks using SS) is a rather more esoteric operation, so let us not burden ourselves with it unless we have to

1. Cool, I just assumed it (M200) didn't have the ability since it doesn't have it in the menu of editing features. But that won't help my cause much, as most of the things I need to remove tracks on are already on the computer and cleaned off of the original HI-MD disc to which they were recorded originally. I have a feeling that may help the OP however.

2. I found this out the hard way. However, I believe if one makes an MD from SS in 132/66 or SP, they can edit on an older deck right? I believe I have done that before.

3. I didn't realize there was any real editing ability in SS at all of music stored in the "library". Is there any write-ups or threads with info on this that you know of?

[sfbp]

2. I found this out the hard way. However, I believe if one makes an MD from SS in 132/66 or SP, they can edit on an older deck right? I believe I have done that before.

Yes, the deck has to be new enough to have LP, but pre-NetMD. Eg on MXD-D400 you cannot do it. But on JE640, you can.

3. I didn't realize there was any real editing ability in SS at all of music stored in the "library". Is there any write-ups or threads with info on this that you know of?

Very simple - to get you started you MUST select View All Tracks. All of a sudden E(dit magically has two new options, D(ivide and C(ombine. This is a pain because All Tracks means you don't have folders at all to organise the viewing of what you have. Maybe better to use a completely fresh SS installation on another PC with only the tracks you care about (after un-DRMing them of course).

It's all documented in Help file.... if you search Divide or Combine, I think you can find it.

Cheers

[MDane]

1. Yes, the deck has to be new enough to have LP, but pre-NetMD. Eg on MXD-D400 you cannot do it. But on JE640, you can.

2. Very simple - to get you started you MUST select View All Tracks. All of a sudden E(dit magically has two new options, D(ivide and C(ombine. This is a pain because All Tracks means you don't have folders at all to organise the viewing of what you have. Maybe better to use a completely fresh SS installation on another PC with only the tracks you care about (after un-DRMing them of course).

1. That would explain why I was able to do that with my JE440. Out of curiosity, what if one makes an SP disc using SS and tried to edit on a older SP machine...like the D400, JE320, etc? Off the top of my head I cannot see any technical reason that wouldn't work.

2. I will so play around with that later. I have quite a few non-stop recordings where I put track marks in (just as I have for years when primarily MD) to mark the point where songs are mixed together or at song change on live recordings. But when I realized that I will get a cut-out at each mark if using an Atrac device played through USB or when playing an Atrac disc, I figured it was another case of one step forward, two steps back. Sure, I expected this from MP3...but not with Sony equipment. And even weirder is that the glitches don't occur if playing the same material back on the same Sony Flash player directly (through the headphones).

Of course I could just go back to MD primarily, sell off everything else, etc (yes this crossed my mind). But after all of the effort and cash I have put into going "solid state Atrac 3+", that is something that I would rather not do. And once you get into playing Podcasts, which typically work quite well with later Sony equipment...that is also something you can't walk away from either. Anyway, thanks for the help...and sorry for hijacking the thread, OP.

[THIS SUCKS]

an old sp deck will edit fake sp tracks downloaded from sonic stage!

[sfbp]

an old sp deck will edit fake sp tracks downloaded from sonic stage!

Indeed, but what use is that?

The fact that you can edit LP2 on some decks is a bit more useful. At least LP2 is "real" stereo.

[Avrin]

"Fake" SP is also real stereo. It's a fully normal and compliant version of SP ATRAC. The only difference being that it is sourced from LP2, and not PCM. Same as if you recorded from an LP2 disc via optical to another disc in SP mode.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Avrin

[MDane]

Indeed, but what use is that?

One reason I can think of is that some decks (like my 440) will not do scale factor edit or a few other editing tricks in LP modes that are possible in SP.

[sfbp]

One reason I can think of is that some decks (like my 440) will not do scale factor edit or a few other editing tricks in LP modes that are possible in SP.

Gotcha. Never thought of that.

Usually if I do any sort of real work on sound files, they get uploaded to WAV to make sure I don't lose anything I don't have to, then burned as CD when I am finished. I can always convert back to MD easily enough. But of course the transformation you are describing is a loss of quality, so I have avoided it ever since I found out about the problem.

[KJ_Palmer]

The SF edit also degrades quality (even further) as it re-encodes the ATRAC, and takes forever and isn't undoable. Much better nowadays to use a Wav editor for normalisation etc.

[MDane]

1. The SF edit also degrades quality (even further) as it re-encodes the ATRAC,

2. and takes forever

3. isn't undoable.

1. That is splitting hairs when speaking of fading in /out for example, as it only degrades the part of the track that drops below the original material's level, and only for the duration of fading, which is typically less than 5 seconds. On top of that, any degradation would be pretty much hidden by the dropping level to the human ear. But I can see how that would affect some of the other SFE's...like track level change for example (or whatever it is called).

But if one believes era field tests of Type R/SP recording units, it was often said that it takes a few re-recordings (from SP to SP) to really hear a loss...meaning there is some inevitable loss from the initial source to the first generation copy, but subsequent copies can utilize the same "ATRAC tricks" over and over to some extent with minimal loss. Whether that is rock-solid true or not, I don't know...but I remember some pretty tight 2nd generation SP recordings I had made back in the day.

2. Not sure if we are on the same page there. When you do a fade-in or out for example, it is a matter of selecting what you want and waiting maybe 5 seconds for it to process. I have never messed with level change or other edits like that, but I am assuming it does this in at least real time or better...which is plenty good for an SP deck...particularly since most of them were never meant to work any faster than 1X in initial coding.

3. As far as this being "undo-able", if such editing was being done in the way we were speaking of (making an SP minidisc from SS) then one would still have the original file on the computer's HD...unless they removed it. But yes, if this was done with a master MD, then it is changed for good. Fwiw, I think there are at least 3 different directions were are going with this thread now...so that is likely where the confusion lies.

[philippeb]

But if one believes era field tests of Type R/SP recording units, it was often said that it takes a few re-recordings (from SP to SP) to really hear a loss...meaning there is some inevitable loss from the initial source to the first generation copy, but subsequent copies can utilize the same "ATRAC tricks" over and over to some extent with minimal loss. Whether that is rock-solid true or not, I don't know...but I remember some pretty tight 2nd generation SP recordings I had made back in the day.

The difference between two early SP recording generations can definitely be heard. I do not change track levels with SCALE FACTOR because of the sound quality degradation. I prefer to listen to first generation recordings, with their original levels.

I occasionally FADE IN or FADE OUT tracks.

[KJ_Palmer]

1. That is splitting hairs when speaking of fading in /out for example, as it only degrades the part of the track that drops below the original material's level, and only for the duration of fading, which is typically less than 5 seconds. On top of that, any degradation would be pretty much hidden by the dropping level to the human ear. But I can see how that would affect some of the other SFE's...like track level change for example (or whatever it is called).

But if one believes era field tests of Type R/SP recording units, it was often said that it takes a few re-recordings (from SP to SP) to really hear a loss...meaning there is some inevitable loss from the initial source to the first generation copy, but subsequent copies can utilize the same "ATRAC tricks" over and over to some extent with minimal loss. Whether that is rock-solid true or not, I don't know...but I remember some pretty tight 2nd generation SP recordings I had made back in the day.

2. Not sure if we are on the same page there. When you do a fade-in or out for example, it is a matter of selecting what you want and waiting maybe 5 seconds for it to process. I have never messed with level change or other edits like that, but I am assuming it does this in at least real time or better...which is plenty good for an SP deck...particularly since most of them were never meant to work any faster than 1X in initial coding.

3. As far as this being "undo-able", if such editing was being done in the way we were speaking of (making an SP minidisc from SS) then one would still have the original file on the computer's HD...unless they removed it. But yes, if this was done with a master MD, then it is changed for good. Fwiw, I think there are at least 3 different directions were are going with this thread now...so that is likely where the confusion lies.

Well, yes my comments were a bit nit-picking

Degrades sound - I was more referring to fake-SP downloads which are already highly degraded quality.

Agree about the fade in/out being very useful for SF editting. 'Takes forever' referred to level changes which take place in real-time (or worse), and are somewhat hit and miss getting the levels right. I remember trying to level change my early optical SP recordings track by track. Never again (since discovering Audacity etc).

Undoable - again doesn't matter if you have the original in SS or whatever, but my early recordings weren't, and regret over-SF editting and even runing a few of them.

Anyway, SF edit is a really handy fetaure when used well - I wouldn't do without it...