ATRAC Type R and S

[IrfanCore]

Hello,

If I record with Type S and play it on a MD that supports only Type R, do I get the Type S sound decoded?

I read online that Type S is an improvement for SP, is that so?

Where can I get ATRAC history changes?

Are there any benefits of encoding lossless to latest ATRAC for MD use, with for example Sound Forge?

Also curious why 292kbps isn't available in Sound Forge, does anyone know?

[PhilippeC]

Type-R is a improved ATRAC codec for SP recording. Type-S have Type-R and a DSP to improve playback of LP2/4.

So your SP recording with a type-S unit is done in... type-R.

ATRAC history : http://www.minidisc.org/faq_sec_4.html#_q27

I don't use Soundforge. I use foobar2000 and to increase the quality of my MD recordings : just use 24bit-96kHz albums (Chesky Records, Linn Records). If you don't have, they are available on the web (even "free") in the FLAC lossless format. You must configure your reader to be able to read such files. But the sound card must be also able to support 24bit-96kHz. If not, just buy an external sound card like the USB

M2Tech HiFace Two and connect it to your MD deck or your portable unit.

[IrfanCore]

I have ASUS Xonar Essence STX

But still isn't better to record from a device such as CD/DVD/BluRay with optical out?

I also use foobar and TAK for lossless storage I would like to use my PC for recording but recording to SP seems to be difficult since the volume changes.

To increase more than the peak level only destroys the sound and to have too low is annoying.

Can I set the default volume on PC?

To be identical to as if I would have recorded with a CD/DVD/BluRay device with optical output.

If I change the volume on a CD/DVD/BluRay with optical out the volume is the same.

So basically I want the volume to be lossless, the same...

[PhilippeC]

I also use foobar and TAK for lossless storage I would like to use my PC for recording but recording to SP seems to be difficult since the volume changes. To increase more than the peak level only destroys the sound and to have too low is annoying. Can I set the default volume on PC? To be identical to as if I would have recorded with a CD/DVD/BluRay device with optical output. If I change the volume on a CD/DVD/BluRay with optical out the volume is the same. So basically I want the volume to be lossless, the same...

What do you mean with " since the volume changes " ? between tracks or due to Windows itself ? If your are talking about track volume, personnaly I use foobar200 with the ReplayGain plugin sys-te-ma-ti-ca-ly...

http://www.techspot.com/tweaks/foobar/ " [.../...] basically it allows for a gain adjustment to be stored in a track, the point being to reduce the need to adjust the volume level during music playback due to varying loudness levels in different tracks/albums. Some of the benefits to using Replaygain are that the Replaygain information doesn’t actually alter the track itself, unlike, say, normalizing a track while encoding. "

So with ReplayGain, ALL my tracks have the same level on all albums, I don't have to change recording volume on my Sony deck MDS-JB980 (fixed once for all at +0.00dB). Now I don't have distorsion at all. You need perhaps also another plugin like Advance Limiter for foobar2000 " This DSP uses read-ahead on the source and scales down the audio signal when it detects clipping will occur resulting in minimal, if any, distortion during playback."

[IrfanCore]

I mean if I increase or lower the volume in Windows (master) or foobar, the volume changes in the recording.

So how do I know what level is equal to the original volume?

And since I like it loud, I need to know this.

I don't like ReplayGain, so I have no use for it.

I'm gonna get Philips BDP7600

It has optical out, will it send track marks to the minidisc?

Thanks for those records but they don't offer my type of music.

If anyone knows any for rock and metal, please do tell.

[PhilippeC]

If you use a CD audio or a CD-RW or any source that the DVD can read AND at least 2 seconds between tracks, YES it will send track marks to the minidisc.

foobar2000 have the plug-in "Post-track silence" and Winamp has the plugin "Wincue" to create a silence between tracks.

What "records" are you talking about ?

You are early ! I live in Vietnam so that is normal to write a post now but you, it is around 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning.

[IrfanCore]

Sorry for late reply.

I live in Sweden.

Records: Chesky Records and Linn Records

I know about the foobar plugin.

I am suprised when I Google something like "PC to minidisc recording" that there is no software to replicate the track mark as with CD/DVD/Bluray device with optical out.

And that there is no clear answer to default volume output on optical output on PC.

I do not know why but I get some noise with ASUS Xonar Essence STX with optical out but not with my motherboard build in soundcard on optical out.

If nothing is on 4-5 bars are shown, as if it's constant sound but on the optical out on the built in soundcard on the motherboard it's just one.

This is just noise when I do not play anything.

[PhilippeC]

I just have a look about your audio card "ASUS Xonar Essence STX". Look like a good audiophile card, support 24bit-96kHz .

I have a Creative X-Fi Platinium audio card. My card sound very good even if I can read critics to the soundblaster sound (witch one?) compare... to your card. I also read that your card need some days to be able to give a beautiful sound (like brand new old cars). Maybe that noise you are talking about come from your desktop AC/DC cable not connected to mass. A french guy also say that he got sound cracks with his card connected to a PCI-E 1X port and solve this problem once the card connected on PCI-E 16X port.

I see that the card has two RCA analog outputs and I read some critics about your card that it sound great , I suggested you to use them connected to your stereo system and also connected to your MD.

All the CDs don't have the same output level - above all recent ones for marketing reason : "sound good if it sound heavy". That is why I first ripp tracks to my computer in Flac lossless quality. I apply ReplayGain to all the tracks and then I record in real time on a MD (SP or LP2 only) using Post-track silence to create track marks. Till I use ReplayGain, I never meet again distorsion just playing new tracks or a new album.

[IrfanCore]

Don't have a stereo, can't I just connect directly to the MD line in?

The cable needed I already have.

I just found out that the optical output (at max volume) on my motherboards soundcard is the same as a DVD player volume level.

Tried at my parents home.

And that the small noise on the motherboards soundcard is the same as on the DVD player.

Of 8 bars (loudest) only 1 is shown while in recording mode (even if nothing is played), is this normal?

I'm gonna try to change my ASUS soundcard to another PCI Express slot.

While in recording mode and not playing anything the noise on the ASUS soundcard is 3 or 4 bars (you can hear it).

I know about the volume on CD's, I prefer to manually edit it with Sound Forge.

Searching for highest peak on the album, and increasing the volume on all tracks so it's close to peak level.

I always keep my CD's, also the EAC rip as it originally is and one copy of how I want it to sound like.

I have bought a few MDs recently of nostalgia, all the MD models I wanted when I had a MD player (at the time MZ-R909).

Now I have MZ-N1, MZ-R909 and two of MZ-N910.

I partially solved my problem by tunring on sync rec on the MD and playing each track manually.

When one track stops the recording stops after 2-3 seconds, then I just double click on the next track then it starts playing and recording.

The foobar plugin does not work, is it is because I use WASAPI output?

It's at least half the work now, I don't have to do anything on the MD.

[PhilippeC]

The foobar plugin does not work, is it is because I use WASAPI output?

What foobar2000 plugin are you talking about ? I use kernel streaming (KS) audio output, sound as good as Asio4all with less problem (sound does not cut suddenly, maybe KS use less CPU resource than Asio4all do).

That noise... I suppose you use the S/PDIF coaxial output for your digital recordings. But as MD units (portable) need an 3,5" optical jack, how do you manage that ? I try to understand what kind of cables + connectors do you use.

[sfbp]

Don't have a stereo, can't I just connect directly to the MD line in?

The cable needed I already have.

WhenEVER I see the word "just" i rise about 3 inches off the ground, floating, in anticipation of a knockout punch

But I think you already answered your own question (Philippe is right), there is no coax in for an MD portable (some decks have them). So unless you have the right OPTICAL cable, you won't get a very good sound on the analog output into MD - mainly because the 3.5mm jack will pick up lots and lots of noise, especially from a PC. I am wondering if you tried to connect coax out directly to the analog jack (same as optical jack) socket of the MD........?

[PhilippeC]

you won't get a very good sound on the analog output into MD - mainly because the 3.5mm jack will pick up lots and lots of noise, especially from a PC.

He has an audiophile sound card with RCA audio outputs. If the RCA to 3,5" jack cable is a good one, I suppose that he will not have noise.

I don't know why he has such a good audio sound card and NO stereo sytem ! IrfanCore, you must get a stereo AND a MD deck, a type R (SP only) or type S if you need MDLP. So you will be able to test RCA to RCA versus coaxial to coaxial MD deck inputs. You are at the right place to get advise about MD decks. For the stereo, I hope you will find separate vintage units in Sweden for peanuts.

[sfbp]

He has an audiophile sound card with RCA audio outputs. If the RCA to 3,5" jack cable is a good one, I suppose that he will not have noise.

I just had EXACTLY that problem; RCA into 3.5mm jack you are at the mercy of whoever built the cable. Sony does some tricks on its car headunits when connected to satellite changer(s) by not using the ground on the audio lead. Something about the double ground at the 2 RCA jacks causing a ground loop....?

[IrfanCore]

I'm talking about the plugin WASAPI output support

http://www.foobar200.../foo_out_wasapi

The foobar plugin that adds 2-3 seconds does not work on latest stable foobar.

I'm not using coaxial output, I don't think that even works.

I'm using the optical cable, same as on BluRay/DVD device with optical output.

And I am not using the RCA output, have not tried that yet.

I don't know but this leads me to believe that there is some kind driver issue.

With the ASUS soundcard I get noise with the optical output and with the built in soundcard on my motherbord I don't get it (or at least the same as on BluRay/DVD player).

The reason I don't have a stereo because I use mostly headphones, atm Sennheiser HD595 and AKG K550.

AKG K550 I mostly use with my DAP iAudio 7 16GB with FLAC.

The optical cables I have tried are the original that come with the minidisc (I think)

I have three and all are the same.

The optical cable with the ASUS soundcard I tried a 3,5 optical cable on both ends, because the ASUS card does not have a ordinary optical output.

[PhilippeC]

I don't understand : if you don't use RCAs and coaxial outputs, what is the use of your audio card for ?

I'm not using coaxial output, I don't think that even works = Ok

With the ASUS soundcard I get noise with the optical output = but you are not using coaxial output you just said !

because the ASUS card does not have a ordinary optical output = maybe yes because there an adaptator S/PDIF included in the box, is it a Toslink output ? or something like laptop optical output that allow 3,5" optical jack ?

The reason I don't have a stereo because I use mostly headphones, so I suppose that your headphones are connnected to the headphone analog output. So you hear the noise in your headphones ? I see that there is a software with complete settings for headphone use, one setting is perhaps wrong.

If Wasapi audio output don't work well, you can try :

http://www.foobar200...view/foo_out_ks

http://www.foobar200...ew/foo_out_asio

[IrfanCore]

That soundcard has a headphone amp, when bought it I wanted to get Sennheiser HD600 but later changed my mind and got AKG K550.

It can handle headphones up to 600ohm.

The optical cable I have is called mini toslink, 3.5mm on both ends.

looks like this.

I am using optical cable, that I am sure of.

The same connection is used for optical and coaxial digital output.

I just don't understand why the constant noise is there, it should'nt be at all.

No I do not hear the noise in any headphones or speakers.

We have left the main topic

Thanks for trying to help but I'm gonna get in touch with ASUS if the problem persist after I change PCI express slot.

I have been thinking of changing motherboard soon so maybe that will help.

The noise is not loud but it's there and it's like constant interference.

[sfbp]

I agree 100% that this noise sounds like an artifact from the PC card. Sorry for doubting you, but as I never had such a problem, I was attempting to imagine some other simple explanation.

You could try a much simpler and cheaper card. I use a. Terratec Aureon Fun 5.1 b. Sony PCLK-MN10. Both seem to give really clean optical out with no constant noise like you are seeing.

I'm wondering about some other INPUT to your sound card that needs to be turned completely OFF. Eg microphone input....?

[IrfanCore]

No need for new soundcard, the one on the motherboard is okay for recording.

I just tried the recording without anything connected

This one bar is always there, regardless of what is connected.

I just tried with the ASUS card with disabled MIC and Line In, thanks for the tip but does not help.

With the ASUS card it shows 4 bars of constant noise.

This does not happen before playing a track, only after a tracks stops or if I stop it.

I have tried chaging to different outputs, WASAPI, Kernel, ASIO and DirectSound but same thing.

And many other settings, same thing...

See below

I'm just pointing out.

[paperclip]

I think you have a problem with the bus, try the card in a different slot, then try getting sound output through DirectSound first. You have a lot of software going on. Lets keep it simple until you get some output and go from there.

[IrfanCore]

What do you mean by a lot of software, lot of plugins?

Even if so, the PC can handle it, quad core, 16GB 1600MHz DDR 3 RAM , SSD Corsair Force GT Series and cool temps.

[paperclip]

That may be true but when trouble-shooting a system you always strip it down to it's most basic elements. Or you could keep adding software, it's really up to you.

[IrfanCore]

What software are you talking about?

I barely have anything...

If it's foobar plugins you mean, I have tried a clean install of foobar, same...

I don't think that this is a software issue, either a bug in the driver or hardware issue...

I use Autoruns to uncheck unwanted start-ups in Windows.

Tomorrow I'll try changing PCIx slot.

Thanks!

[paperclip]

Well, do you have the on-board sound chip disabled in the BIOS? After re-reading your posts several times, you said you get ok sound out of the on-board chip. Could be the O/S is fighting over 2 sound cards. Next time you boot up, enter the BIOS and make sure the on-board sound is DIS-abled. Then go from there.

[IrfanCore]

I had it disabled before, always. I never thought I would need two soundcards.

I enabled it after this issue on the ASUS card, so that's not it.

[paperclip]

Good luck getting 2 sound cards to work at the same time. Let me know how you did it, sounds interesting!

[IrfanCore]

They both work, but I do not need them to output the same at the same time.

They issue is there even if the onboard soundcard is disabled in BIOS.

I'll post later about changing PCI express slot when I get some time over...

[paperclip]

If they both work, what's the problem?

[IrfanCore]

The noise in the optical output on the ASUS card

[paperclip]

So then they don't work?

[IrfanCore]

Everything works, just that on the optical there is noise.

Only after something played stops, the noise comes.

[paperclip]

Good luck, post your solution.

[paperclip]

.

[Sony_Fan]

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but if a minidisc recorder says it has DSP Type-S, how is that different than other minidisc recorders that have Type-R? I read the second post, but I did not see other posts confirming the validity of it. I read the Sony specifications for the MZ-NF810, and it says that it has Type-S for SP, LP2, LP4 recording, but it clearly states that it does not have Type-R for recording.

http://www.sony.lv/product/minidisc-walkman/mz-nf810/technical-specifications#tab

[sfbp]

Type-S includes Type-R. Period.

[Sony_Fan]

Type-S includes Type-R. Period.

And the MZ-NF810 has Type-S?

[KJ_Palmer]

Both the Sony spec sheet and the manual say it does have Type-S, so Type-R for SP recording and playback would also be included. That is also indicated in the manual, so presumably the spec sheet is wrong there.

[Arr-Nine-Hundred]

Both the Sony spec sheet and the manual say it does have Type-S, so Type-R for SP recording and playback would also be included. That is also indicated in the manual, so presumably the spec sheet is wrong there.

Just to clarify, Type-R enhances SP recordings but not SP playback (eg. you could not expect any old SP recording to sound better in a Type-R unit).

http://opticalgarbage.com/minidisc/type-sr.html

[PhilippeC]

And type-S enhance LP listening, and in that case, your old LP recording will be enhanced. But what about type-R vs type-S for LP recording ? Big question. Maybe somebody will make a test JA333ES "only type-R" deck vs a (my) JB980 type-S deck one day.

[sfbp]

Just a moment... the improvements for the various versions of the DSP chips simply signify that a later revision of ATRAC DSP has been cast into silicon.

It's still not impossible (ie I think it is quite likely) that general improvements in the DSP that Sony kept on making are worth having. Certainly the sound from Type-S playback is always that much clearer. What we're talking about here is simply the general updating of codecs, which we see all the time in software; but of course in this case the codec is built into the hardware.