Sony MDS-E10 defeats SCMS

[bluecrab]

Thought it might be worthwhile to note that the Sony MDS-E10 (pro MD deck) not only can ignore the SCMS copy-protect bit—when set to do so—but also will not propagate it. I tested this and I was, for example, able to copy a protected MD from the 930 to the E10, and vice-versa, once the E10 had stripped the SCMS.  Sony does not mention this feature in the E10's manual, at least not in the version I have. The E10 is Type R. I don't know if this applies to other decks in the E-series.

[sfbp]

Yup I believe their silence in the manual is very telling. All the consumer decks have the screed about not making copies. I believe the E10/11/12 do not have that couple of pages

Another device that defeats it is the Behringer Ultra Match Pro 2496 - as you pointed out. I decided with all the MD decks in this house, it would be better to get that than yet another deck for purely that feature. YMMV.

[bluecrab]

The E10's SM has this: e10.tiff

That's the only hint!

While the U/G has this (along with the usual text):

"You can make only a first-generation copy through a digital-to-digital connection."

Could things get any weirder?!

 

 

 

 

 

[PhilippeC]

HI everybody.

Just see that MDS-E12 has the same SCMS on/off thing in its service manual. I need to talk with phamcu in Vietnam about this, as he used to sell W1 "Full Digital Copy DIY" decks some years ago and just have one E12 decks still to sell.

[BearBoy]

Someone over on Tapeheads has just posted about having issues with SCMS on their MDS-E10: http://www.tapeheads.net/showthread.php?t=83189

Does anyone know how to disable SCMS on that machine? I've found the Service Manual now but, although it indicates it can be switched on or off, it does not explain how to do this.

Any ideas?

[kgallen]

I think it depends on your E10 - some start up "MDS-E10" and some "MDS-E10 PRO". Possibly only the PRO version (which I think is just a later version of the E10, no way to tell them apart when off!) has the menu options.  These are as my observations on my E12 (I think this was my first SIF post!).

Kevin

 

[sfbp]

That is so weird. All this time I've had it in my head that the E10/11/12 series are truly "Pro" that is, do not enforce SCMS. Yet the manual proclaims the reverse. And now I remember scratching my head in puzzlement as if to say "why charge all that money if it doesn't actually do second gen copies?". Now the MDS-B5 *definitely* always allowed copying (of course no MDLP). Sounds like they changed their minds, or something, after the model(s) was(were) released.
 

 

[kgallen]

Is it possible the SCMS was forced in some territories (e.g. US) and allowed to be programmable in other (e.g. EU)? i.e. in US versions you don't get the SCMS menu options - on the E10 at least, don't know about the E12.

[kgallen]

This any use for your chap on TH?

(Sorry, useless at this video stuff - on the phone these 14secs were 25MB and I managed to shrink to 5MB - but still not sure why it's so big...)

From what @bluecrab said on the thread linked above, you need to select "Permit".

The video below is from turning it on with the power button. There was no disc in the machine.

(If you're wondering, the machine below the MDS-E10 is a Tascam 112 cassette deck that I rescued and refurbed a few months back - see my other waffly threads on my first encounter with LP4 and audio books from the charity shop...)

 

[BearBoy]

Thanks Kevin. I’ll post a link back to this thread over on TH. 

[BearBoy]

I've posted a link over at TH so hopefully it'll help the person out.

Thanks again for going to the trouble of making a video Kevin.

[sfbp]

Surely you want "inhibit"? That's effectively the setting on my Boehringer (the only device I have apart from PC Sound Card(s) which gives me that choice). I think if there is no copy bit and no original bit then copying is free and untrammeled. Setting permit means you get a standard 1-gen copy.

[kgallen]

No worries! Not exactly a masterpiece - much better examples seen on this forum!

As you say over on TH, is there an MDS-E10 and a MDS-E10 PRO? I'm pretty sure my original-still-not-working-no-I-dont-want-to-talk-about-it E10 just says "MDS-E10" on the display when it starts, i.e. not "MDS-E10 PRO" like in the video above. It won't initialise far enough that I could get into the menu system to look. Maybe the chap on TH has a "non-PRO" and this doesn't have the menu item. Maybe that is a conundrum we can resolve soon, so please report back on what happens over on TH!

 

ETA 04/Sep/21: Indeed there does seem to be a difference - machines that don't say "PRO" on the startup screen don't seem to have the Copy Bit menu item in Setup (regardless of the resistor settings shown in the SM Supplement for SCMS). However it's possible, but not proven yet, that they ignore SCMS (possibly dependent on those resistor settings in the SM Supplement) but just can't be configured for the Copy Bit setting to write to the disc.

[kgallen]

5 minutes ago, sfbp said:

Surely you want "inhibit"? That's effectively the setting on my Boehringer (the only device I have apart from PC Sound Card(s) which gives me that choice).

You could be right. What this means is you're going to make me go back into the shed in the rain and get out a bunch of MD machines and find out...

[sfbp]

OK, so now i've raised the doubt in your mind.....

Raining in July? Reminds me of my teenage years and summers on the farm.

There are two bits in SCMS, you can see them on the Boehringer. One is called "original", the other "copy". There are thusly FOUR states:

Both set - this is after a new recording
Copy set and original cleared - from a copy
Original cleared and copy set - don't remember what this means... oh I know "CANNOT COPY"
BOTH CLEARED - this means there's no protection on the data at all. This is how I think data comes out of my sound card. The Ultramatch Pro allows you to set or clear either bit.

[kgallen]

Right, here goes.

I set up my Sony MDS-E10 PRO and my Tascam MD-350 and connected them only via an optical TOSLINK cable (both machines have both optical in and out).

I have 4 discs:

- Blue is the "master disc" - an MO MD that was dubbed in LP2 from a commercial CD using a Tascam MD-CD1 Mk1. So this is a 1st Gen Digital Copy of a CD.
- I have Yellow, Purple , Black MO MD discs that I make successive generation copies on where permitted.

The MDS-E10 PRO has a menu option "Copy Bit" that can take one of 3 setting: Permit, Inhibit, PreRecorded.

1) MD-350 --TOSLINK--> MDS-E10 PRO

For the first step I play a disc track on the MD-350 and record on the MDS-E10 PRO. I make successive copies of a track Blue -> Yellow then Yellow -> Purple then Purple -> Black. I repeat for all settings of Copy Bit on the MDS-E10 PRO.

Conclusion:

- MDS-E10 PRO will copy (record) via optical TOSLINK, a disc track played on the MD-350 of *any* generation that was recorded with *any* Copy Bit setting used when that track was recorded on the MDS-E10 PRO. The drive in the MDS-E10 PRO is MDM7SC (SC=serial copy?).

On Yellow, Purple and Black discs I now have a set of tracks recorded with each setting of Copy Bit on the MDS-E10 PRO, where Tk1=Permit, Tk2=Inhibit, Tk3=PreRec and Yellow=1st Gen Copy (i.e. a copy of a Blue track), Purple=2nd Gen Copy (i.e. a copy of the respective Yellow track), Black=3rd Gen Copy (i.e. a copy of the respective Purple track).

2) MDS-E10 --TOSLINK--> MD-350

Now I reverse the TOSLINK connection and play on the MDS-E10 PRO and record (where permitted) on the MD-350. MDS-E10 PRO has the Copy Bit setting at Permit (but I now see this setting is irrelevant for playback). This is where I make some further generation copies where I can, but recording using the MD-350 which I presume obeys SCMS coming in on the TOSLINK.

Blue Tk -> Cannot Copy

Yellow Tk1 (Permit) -> Copy to Purple Tk4
Yellow Tk2 (Inhibit) -> Cannot Copy
Yellow Tk3 (PreRec) -> Copy to Purple Tk5

Purple Tk1 (Permit) -> Copy to Black Tk4
Purple Tk2 (Inhibit) -> Cannot Copy
Purple Tk3 (PreRec) -> Copy to Black Tk5
Purple Tk4 (Permit) -> Copy to Black Tk6
Purple Tk5 (PreRec) -> Cannot Copy

Black Tk1 (Permit) -> Copy to Yellow Tk4
Black Tk2 (Inhibit) -> Cannot Copy
Black Tk3 (PreRec) -> Copy to Yellow Tk5
Black Tk4 (Permit) -> Copy to Yellow Tk6
Black Tk5 (PreRec) -> Cannot Copy
Black Tk6 (Permit) -> Copy to Yellow Tk7

So after all of that, some readers are laughing their socks off, because the results are unsurprising.

So, recording on a machine that honours SCMS (the MD-350):

- Tracks with the track recorded as Permit can be copied digitally without generational limit (well at least 3 times) -> the Permit propagates down the generations.
- Tracks recorded as Inhibit cannot be copied. In addition a track dubbed digitally from a CD cannot be copied (using a Tascam MD-CD1 Mk1 at least).
- Tracks recorded as PreRec can be copied once only.

Hope that clears it up.

Kevin

[sfbp]

Brilliant. I think. I need time to digest but have house duties (set table) right now. BTW I think SC is Serial Control, ie the DB9 socket.

There's one setting in there that we haven't seen, which is both bits cleared, I think. So you have a three-state machine. We just acquired a new handyman who, on the recommendation of a friend fixed our tumble-drier. He being of Russian-Ukrainian parentage and growing up in Moldova highlighted for me the fact that there is the Western way (on or off), and the Russian way (on, off, or maybe).

I remember learning briefly about the Russian Ternary computer, too. Base 3.

[kgallen]

The different SCMS behaviour we (may) see between E10 machines could be down to a change made on later machines. I have "Supplement-1" to the E10 Service Manual (probably from Elektrotanya) and it describes a different resistor configuration for the SCMS setting. Which way this takes SCMS handling is not clear, it just says "now do this".

Note in the schematic the interesting point, pin 87 (pin list=AVSS,schematic=SCMS) versus pin 72 (pin list=SCMS, schematic=CDR/MD) (see schematic, 3rd image)

If you're intrigued by R435 (which is not on the schematic), it's just a resistor that can pull up pin 87, whereas R434 pulls it down - fit one only otherwise you'll create a power supply short (see PCB layout, 4th image).

Note: red/blue annotations added by me.

[BearBoy]

14 hours ago, kgallen said:

- MDS-E10 PRO will copy (record) via optical TOSLINK, a disc track played on the MD-350 of *any* generation that was recorded with *any* Copy Bit setting used when that track was recorded on the MDS-E10 PRO. The drive in the MDS-E10 PRO is MDM7SC (SC=serial copy?).

Interesting. I had assumed that the person over on TH having issues was trying to record using their MDS-E10 as the recorder and that SCMS was preventing this (which shouldn't be the case based on your testing - assuming the "PRO" model is the same as the non-"PRO" version). Having re-read their post, however, there is nothing to confirm this is the way round they were doing things.

[sfbp]

What (where) are GC and UC? These are apparently new designations of market destinations I have never seen before. Used to E, AEP, US etc....

Looks like your theory about some markets allowing it might just be accurate.

BTW with "permit" sounds like SCMS bits (original, copy) are BOTH cleared, like on my Boehringer. Can you confirm this in some way by looking at bit patterns in waveform? (sorry I don't mean to make work just for the sake of it).

[kgallen]

11 minutes ago, sfbp said:

What (where) are GC and UC? These are apparently new designations of market destinations I have never seen before. Used to E, AEP, US etc....

I thought I saw a definition for GC and UC somewhere but after posting above I couldn't find it again to reference as I thought there might be a query (and here it is!).

For sure, UC was USA and Canada.

I think GC covered everywhere else they seem to have specific locale designations for (EU/GB, AUS, J).

Ah here we go:

[sfbp]

In any event it doesn't show them being treated differently. Just a little bit of arcanery for the record. Thanks.

[kgallen]

I get the impression SCMS was never enforced in the J model - maybe not enforced in any J MD model? Would be interesting if anyone other than Techmoan has some Japan-sourced machine and if any of them give a hoot to SCMS adherence.

[sfbp]

Actually I get the impression that the E model is what is sold in Japan. Take a look on buyee/yahoo and see if you can figure by looking at the pictures. The one I looked at had english on the backplane, not Japanese.

[bluecrab]

I was using the E10 earlier tonight. It's set to ignore SCMS and does so reliably. Most or even perhaps all of the E-series decks can do that...E12 users also report success. I have the US model. BearBoy, if you want to let that Tapehead person know HowTo, it's just this: Setup Menu > Copy Bit > [Permit]. That setting is deep into the menu.

"...maybe not enforced in any J MD model?" If J = Japan, then yes, enforced, as on my JPN MXD-D400.

IIRC, the E10 actually strips SCMS, not just ignores it....thing is, I don't usually need to take things that far.

[BearBoy]

Thanks Bluecrab. 

Quick question: does your MDS-E10 display “MDS-E10 PRO” on the screen when you power it on?

[kgallen]

5 hours ago, bluecrab said:

IIRC, the E!0 actually strips SCMS, not just ignores it....

As my trial above shows, it ignores SCMS in the input SPDIF and sets it on the recorded track per the Copy Bit menu setting.

What do you mean by ‘strip’ compared to ignore (in the context of the E10)? I realise other machines may ignore on the input and ‘strip’ for the output because they don’t have a means to allow the user to configure them (effectively a ‘copy bit killer’).

If I get time I’ll try similar on my E12 but it’s probably the same as the E10.

[bluecrab]

5 hours ago, kgallen said:

As my trial above shows, it ignores SCMS in the input SPDIF and sets it on the recorded track per the Copy Bit menu setting.

What do you mean by ‘strip’ compared to ignore (in the context of the E10)? I realise other machines may ignore on the input and ‘strip’ for the output because they don’t have a means to allow the user to configure them (effectively a ‘copy bit killer’).

If I get time I’ll try similar on my E12 but it’s probably the same as the E10.

What I mean is that if I begin with a CD and copy that CD to MD on the E10, then the resulting and subsequent MD and any copies made from it are SCMS-free. I I may be able to test today. However, it seems that the E10, on output, no matter the setting, enforces SCMS if it's already on an MD.  All copying S/PDIF.

[bluecrab]

6 hours ago, BearBoy said:

Thanks Bluecrab. 

Quick question: does your MDS-E10 display “MDS-E10 PRO” on the screen when you power it on?

Hadn't thought to notice that. It certainly does. Perhaps a non-Pro version wouldn't do that? I could enquire of a few other E-series owners if that would help.

[bluecrab]

The short vid by kgallen shows exactly what needs to be done. Earlier today, I was able to copy an MD that had had SCMS removed (likely on the E10) from a JB940 to a CD-RW on a Pioneer CD-R standalone that will not permit copying from an MD with SCMS. That would indicate that SCMS is not propagated via the E10 once the Copy Bit is set to Permit. However, if an MD already contains SCMS, then the op is a no-go. What all this means to me, mainly, is that I sold my separate SCMS killer a bit too soon. If my E10 goes feet-up on me, that means big trouble for digital copying. I bought the E10 at least 3+ years ago from a pro musician in Boston who'd gone computer. There was a small mechanical problem that he fixed on the spot. Since then, it's needed a new belt and the power button is now stuck in the On position. My not being sfbp or kgallen, I resolved the latter issue using a small power strip. You do what you can!

[BearBoy]

Thanks for confirming re the "PRO" thing Bluecrab. The poster on TH hasn't reported back yet but it will be interesting to hear how they've got on.

[bluecrab]

14 hours ago, BearBoy said:

Thanks for confirming re the "PRO" thing Bluecrab. The poster on TH hasn't reported back yet but it will be interesting to hear how they've got on.

You're welcome. I clicked on your link to TH and found I had a login there. I thought that the entire E-series models were all considered "pro," but precisely what that means in the Sony world...who knows? My E10 is connected to an HHB Burn IT  CD recorder, also noted as "pro" by HHB, also can control SCMS.

[kgallen]

I now have a ‘non-PRO’ MDS-E12. i.e. the startup says ‘MDS-E12’ not ‘MDS-E12 PRO’.

 

This machine does *not* have the Copy Bit option in the Setup Menu. However it does (already) have the updated SCMS resistor configuration shown in the SM Supplement.

 

I was intrigued to know how it handled, or didn’t handle SCMS.

 

On one of my PRO MDS-E12 I recorded a track with Copy Bit=Inhibit. I *was* able to record this track from the PRO onto the non-PRO E12 via SPDIF.

 

I took the two discs and tried to copy both the original track and the copied track from my MDS-JE770 to my MDS-JE530 via TOSLINK. For both tracks, the 530 reported ‘Cannot Copy’.

 

Conclusion: A ‘non-PRO’ E12 ignores incoming copy bits regarding SCMS copy control. The copied track appears to have the same copy bit settings as the source track. The former is welcome to know. The latter is expected since the ‘non-PRO’ machines don’t have the menu item to configure the recorded copy bits.

 

I would expect a ‘non-PRO’ E10 to have the same behaviour, but I don’t have a working one to confirm this.