belts? cross reference?

[2many]

It would be nice if the minidisc community portal had a cross reference chart of some kind for interchangeable parts. Or even a thread as a go to place for this type of thing. Or am I just missing this? I have been going round and round to find proper belts for my units. On suggestion I bought 7 belts off ebay that did not work for me. I think they were a bit too small so that when installed they put the pulley on a bind. They were listed as 17mm, but no other description is given. I found rubber bands that work, but their longevity is suspect. A data base stating which minidisc carrage is used in each unit would be of help when searching for a belt. For instance in searching ebay I found a belt for the je 440 and 480 and the only description is that it is a gesco 2.2 square belt. In searching for belts to fit a 940 I found a listing and those are gem3.5 by gesco I believe. What do those numbers refer to for the home repair guy? If I were to find some wholesale belt place how do I know what I need?

I found a listing for the mds e-12 but they give no description at all. Diamentions of the belts would be a plus. These things might be worth a dollar...or pennies? But they charge like it is the last belt on earth and they are keeping it a secret. I just bought the last two designated for the mds e-12 and now the seller, (in portugal) has updated their listing to show two more are available! I would have bought three! There are 50+ belt packs you can buy, but that would be a crap shoot. And by the picture, there is nothing in there small enough. They state that the range begins at 40mm. 

Global electronics and web spare parts both have over 5,000 belts listed for everything from a kraco in dash cassette to a norelco shaver. They have no searchable database and use a generic picture for the belts. The listings are a jumble of all belts and model numbers in a mixed order. Very difficult to navigate and expensive. At least I have purchased from them before and got the right pack of four belts for a double cassette deck.

Anyway, my post here might be of some help to others. I am no electronics repairman, but I fix things. Who can afford service when you have a hundred components? I have been on the phone, I have gone around town, repair men are retiring and the small parts shop is gone. I found one guy who gave me a couple wrong size belts. N/C (thankfully)

So I have just purchased 6 jb940 belts and 2 mds e12 belts on line. I was curious, I have not had to take any minidiscs apart until recent. So I looked in some. I have an e10 but have not looked in there. (so I wonder about it) The 940 and a e12 are very similar. The same belt should work in each.  A jb930 is a different animal. The load tray is gear driven! I would suspect my 920 is as well. No disc errors and c-13's are going to happen there, unless you jam it and bust a gear. Check my pictures below. The e-12 has a metal cover over the transport (for some reason). The 940's cage has a place for that cover and screw holes for it, but no cover. The 940 has two ground wires the e-12 does not have. And you will be able to pick out the 930 due to it's nice white transport tray GEARS!

mds e-12 with it's metal lid

mds jb940 has no lid

mds jb930 a whole different transport

I'll show you the pictures from the top too...

Global electronics solutions has a listing which includes the jb940. A gesco 2.2 square belt

Seller : amecbol  

Item location:

Woodside, New York, United States

Sony HCD-MD595 Sony HCD-VZ50MD Sony HCD-ZX50MD/MDS-JB940 GES2.2 SQUARE BELT

 

ebay item # 123028753051

$6.95   shipping $290

 

 

Seller : web_spare_parts 

Item location:

Europe, Portugal

Sony MDS-E12, MDSE12 Belt Kit For MiniDisc (1 Belt)

 

ebay item # 232891402025

$8.97   shipping $399

 

Above, I bought...we will see. Below, did not work in my e-12

 

Seller :  cnh_03 

Item location:

Raithby by Spilsby, United Kingdom

17mm Rubber Drive Belt for Cassette Deck/Player, CD ROM, DVD Player etc

 

ebay item # 192420535089

$1.23  shipping $2.42

 

[sfbp]

When you have eliminated......

What's the (congealed) grease situation? Something stopping motion maybe.....

[kgallen]

The eBay seller I used has a pack with 17, 19, 22, 25 mm belts plus bigger  

https://ebay.us/d1v7nU

At the moment he’s not asking for your life savings. You say the 17 is too small so is it worth getting this pack and trying the 19 or maybe the 22? But you do say the disk binds early on so I’m not sure how the 17 can be causing this!

I know this is hit and miss but we don’t have a Sony spec or a pristine example to measure. I’m sceptical these high price belts are known to be the correct diameter and thickness. How do they know this? Do they actually have a spec or are they guessing by trial and error like the rest of us. If you’re sick of black belts then I like others tried those denture bands. This gave me a clue to the size but I didn’t want a rough cut piece of elastic in my machines hence hunting for some true drive belt of a usable size.

Kevin

[kgallen]

Also note many drives are the same mechanically. So for example 440, 480, E10 and E12 are all variants on the MDM7 drive and mechanically identical. So the same belt - the 17/1 worked for me in all these machines. But for some reason not in your E12. I don’t understand the reason. 

Other drives like the MDM5 in the 520 and 530 I think are all gears, no belts at all.

 

[kgallen]

I did start a bit of a drive list on a spreadsheet - I just went around the service manuals and noted what was specified. But I haven’t done all (Sony) machines as there are many and I didn’t have the need. 

Also on the list I added the OP type (A/B/E).

[2many]

20 hours ago, sfbp said:

When you have eliminated......

What's the (congealed) grease situation? Something stopping motion maybe.....

I am lost in the nature of your question. In what it is in reference to.

[2many]

16 hours ago, kgallen said:

The eBay seller I used has a pack with 17, 19, 22, 25 mm belts plus bigger  

https://ebay.us/d1v7nU

At the moment he’s not asking for your life savings. You say the 17 is too small so is it worth getting this pack and trying the 19 or maybe the 22? But you do say the disk binds early on so I’m not sure how the 17 can be causing this!

I know this is hit and miss but we don’t have a Sony spec or a pristine example to measure. I’m sceptical these high price belts are known to be the correct diameter and thickness. How do they know this? Do they actually have a spec or are they guessing by trial and error like the rest of us. If you’re sick of black belts then I like others tried those denture bands. This gave me a clue to the size but I didn’t want a rough cut piece of elastic in my machines hence hunting for some true drive belt of a usable size.

Kevin

Kevin. I agree with all you are saying.

 I wonder how and where belts are measured in the industry. I do not know how to call out specifics to a wholesale belt supplyer. Regarding my experiance and observation with the UK 17mm belt, my gut feeling is that an 18mm belt may do the trick. As far as mm’s and judging the ebay ad, they are referencing the geneal outside diameter. And right, in my case, with the 17mm installed, there is something going on at the very beginning of insertion and engaugement.

A sony spec would be a blessing.

No one has time for our little belt issue. Did they test different belts in all machines? No, impossable. In a perfect world, going to a belt supplier and rifling through and testing their various product would be nice.

In the end, the reason for creating this post is to try to come up with a general consensus, clarify terminology, create cross references and clear up the darkness regarding this issue. For me and hopefuly for others.

When I get these new belt shipments in hand. I will compare, test and report my findings.

[2many]

16 hours ago, kgallen said:

Also note many drives are the same mechanically. So for example 440, 480, E10 and E12 are all variants on the MDM7 drive and mechanically identical. So the same belt - the 17/1 worked for me in all these machines. But for some reason not in your E12. I don’t understand the reason. 

Other drives like the MDM5 in the 520 and 530 I think are all gears, no belts at all.

 

It is hit and miss with any info you may garner from an ebay ad. In post #1 of this thread, web spare parts lists a model specific belt for the mds e-12. With them, no other models were mentioned.

Global electronic solutions lists the belt for the jb940 and two others, but leaves off the fact that this should very well fit the e10’s and 12’s. Should fit many others too!

I am new to the deck internals. Have not had troubles until now. 

A list of all decks using the mdm7 transport would have been of help to me as I scrolled through 5,000+ listings to try to find what they had available.

So for the benefit of the md community I will post my observation and experiance.

What is the name of the transport inside the jb930? What other home deck transports are there?

You and me... don’t understand why the 17/1 did not work for me! For the record, I tried a number of them, in and out, along with going back to the original stretched belt and using rubber bands. This being done to two different e-12’s. With identical results. I do not think I failed to install them right... it is too easy and you can see it is in place. Result, 17mm band does not work. I will say they are visually smaller in diameter, thicker than original sony and lack the expandability of a rubber band similarly sized to the 17mm.

 

[2many]

Op type? A/B/C...

 Over my head. I am new to the internals and the terminology.

But I will add one other thing that would help me as I go along in md life. At one point, I decided a sony e-12 service manual would be a plus in my world. Searches came up empty. Hard to get a copy of them?

[kgallen]

Most Sony MD service manuals are on manualslib, minidisc.org or elektrotanya and come up pretty readily with a google search. Here:

https://elektrotanya.com/sony_mds-e12_md_recorder.pdf/download.html

also note that depending what information you're after many of the service manuals are very similar in content. What varies of course is the exact drive model, optical pickup (OP), additional features (like say the RS232 on the E12 not on the E10), and the button combinations to get into service mode.

OP = optical pickup - the laser and focus module. KMS260A, KMS260B and KMS260E are the usual types found in the Sony MD drives. Sometimes they are interchangeable, but often there are caveats like exactly how they are set up for e.g. Laser power. Plenty of threads on this site on this!

[2many]

That is great. Thank you for steering me in that direction. 

[kris01]

Belt for MDS-JB980QS fits for  next  MDS models and not only MDS

https://pl.eetgroup.com/i/422702501-Sony-Belt

• - Mini Disk MDS-JB940
• - Mini Disk MDS-JB980
• - Mini Disk MDS-JE440
• - Mini Disk MDS-JE470
• - Mini Disk MDS-JE480
• - Mini Disk MDS-JE640
• - Mini Disk MDS-JE770
• - Mini Disk MDS-JE780
• - Mini Disk MDS-LSA1
• - Mini Disk MDS-NT1
• - Mini Disk MDS-PC3
• - Mini Disk MDS-S50
• - Mini Disk MDS-S9
• - Mini Disk MDS-SE9
• - Mini Disk MXD-D4
• - Mini Disk MXD-D40
• - Mini Disk MXD-D5C

this one fits 

https://pl.eetgroup.com/i/499953701-Sony-Loading-Belt  , 33 mm 1,5 x 1,5 mm

MDS-JA20ES

MDS-JA333ES

MDS-JA555ES

 

[sfbp]

On 7/18/2019 at 4:14 PM, 2many said:

I am lost in the nature of your question. In what it is in reference to.

It cannot be the belts at fault. Something systemic is causing all your mechanisms to be extra sticky. Congealed grease maybe?

Looks like I was wrong about belts being "it", my apologies.

[kgallen]

34 minutes ago, kris01 said:

Belt for MDS-JB980QS fits for  next  MDS models and not only MDS

https://pl.eetgroup.com/i/422702501-Sony-Belt

• - Mini Disk MDS-JB940
• - Mini Disk MDS-JB980
• - Mini Disk MDS-JE440
• - Mini Disk MDS-JE470
• - Mini Disk MDS-JE480
• - Mini Disk MDS-JE640
• - Mini Disk MDS-JE770
• - Mini Disk MDS-JE780
• - Mini Disk MDS-LSA1
• - Mini Disk MDS-NT1
• - Mini Disk MDS-PC3
• - Mini Disk MDS-S50
• - Mini Disk MDS-S9
• - Mini Disk MDS-SE9
• - Mini Disk MXD-D4
• - Mini Disk MXD-D40
• - Mini Disk MXD-D5C

Can add MDS-E10 and MDS-E12 to that list too, since they are also MDM7 variant drives.

440,640,940,S50,470,770 = MDM-7A

480,780 = MDM-7S1A

E10, E12 = MDM-7SC

[2many]

 

Thank you kgallen

I like the way your cross reference chart is shaping up! I was hedging my bets as to whether the same belt for the 940 would be prooer for my e-12’s. Thus purchsed from two different suppliers. I will be curious how they match up wigh each other.

 

sfbp, I now am convinced that I have a belt issue. And thanks for your help trouble shooting.

[2many]

Global electronic solutions belt is the big one in this picture.

$45 for 6 rubber bands. Now I try to get my money back.

[kgallen]

Which of those belts are ‘old’ from your machines and which are new (big one is new, understood). E12 and 940 are both MDM7 variant drives so they’ll use the same belt. Can't really tell from the picture but a square section or round section belt is needed not a flat section one.

Kevin

[2many]

 

All four are old belts

In the picture, the three are original e12 belts and the one is original 940 belt. And yes, all four seem to be identical belts. They are as marked on the paper.

Only the big belt is a new belt. It is thicker and larger diameter and WAY too big.

The big belt is one of six I purchased from global electronic solutions. It was listed as for the mds jb940. (Among other machines) Yet obviously that belt is wrong. My god how hard can this be to get a tiny little belt?

Several posts back, Kris01 posted a link which I would have to translate. Below the link is 33mm x 1.5 x 1.5 is that the belt I need?

[kgallen]

Maybe you could mark up your paper with any other info you can determine from the belts - "old" and "new", cross-section shape (square, round, flat), thickness if you can measure it (1mm? 1.5mm? etc) and then circumference - or diameter if you can get the belt roughly circular. Then re-take a photo. This would be a useful back-reference for old/stretched belts at least given we don't have any Sony data.

Also if you have some new belts - those 17mm ones for example. Maybe they could be added to the picture and marked up accordingly (17mm new, round) as an A-B comparison?

If you have some 5mm gridded paper or graph paper to lay out your whole specimen collection on that would be even better!

[2many]

Afaid I am not very technically inclined regarding a micrometer. Nor do I have the tools. Yet I will give it a go right now and then post. Stand by.

[2many]

That link that Kris01 posted, my computer translated the language. It is EET europarts sony loading belt product number 499953701 ean upc 5705965918319

they do not give specs. The belt is round, that’s a start. 

It says the price is 47.43 pln (with VAT)

what is that?

[kgallen]

What device is 499953701 for? It''s square section. Anyway 47.43 Polish Zloty's is about 12.50USD (July 2019). (VAT is EU sales tax, "Value Added Tax").

Kris references 422702501 for JB980 etc (which is also square-section) and that is about 13USD.

But nothing more to be gleaned on the spec from this site... and I'm certainly not going to be spending that sort of silly money on a single belt!

[2many]

Do any of these photos help?

[kgallen]

They might if I had the vaguest of ideas of how to read an imperial micrometer and what the scale of the graduations are!

[2many]

11 minutes ago, kgallen said:

What device is 499953701 for? It''s square section. Anyway 47.43 Polish Zloty's is about 12.50USD (July 2019). (VAT is EU sales tax, "Value Added Tax").

Kris references 422702501 for JB980 etc (which is also square-section) and that is about 13USD.

But nothing more to be gleaned on the spec from this site... and I'm certainly not going to be spending that sort of silly money on a single belt!

I currently have 6 decks in need of belts. Yes $13 us dollars is robbery. My pictures may indeed show that the original is approximately 1.5 x 1.5..... But I do not know how to read the gauge. And my whole life I have worked in inches. milometers and kilometers... what is that? I'd have to resort to a conversion chart. The original belts are square, yes and approximately 11/16ths inch in diameter.

[kgallen]

11/16 * 25.4 = 17.5mm

So if the thickness and cross-section shape of those 17mm belts is ok for the pulley groove then they should be perfect.

[2many]

3 minutes ago, kgallen said:

They might if I had the vaguest of ideas of how to read an imperial micrometer and what the scale of the graduations are!

Ha, is that an imperial micrometer? I thought it was in thousandths of inch. The sony belt does measure at 1.5 square.

[kgallen]

1.5mm is about 60 thou (1.5/25.4). Your micrometer reads 2 graduations (what is one graduation - a 1/32? a 1/64? something else?) plus 20 (20 what - thou?).

You're gonna have to help me out here with your tools. Whilst I use both metric (millimeters etc) and imperial (inches) all of the time depending on the work I'm doing, I don't think I've ever used an imperial (i.e. inches) micrometer.

Some other poor soul might chip in here and help us out...

[2many]

Just at sight, they are quite large for the groove, but the size of the rubber bands I am using are that thick too and they work like a charm. I have enough experience trying several different 17mm belts out of my shipment from the UK on several machines to say that no combination of those would work for me. Could not even begin to load a disc. You can see that they are smaller in diameter than the original... by far.

[2many]

3 minutes ago, kgallen said:

1.5mm is about 60 thou (1.5/25.4). Your micrometer reads 2 graduations (what is one graduation - a 1/32? a 1/64? something else?) plus 20 (20 what - thou?).

You're gonna have to help me out here with your tools. Whilst I use both metric (millimeters etc) and imperial (inches) all of the time depending on the work I'm doing, I don't think I've ever used an imperial (i.e. inches) micrometer.

Some other poor soul might chip in here and help us out...

I am at a loss to tell anyone how to properly read my own tool. It's something I own, but did not buy or ever use. I am a poor soul in need of belts.

I have two pictures I will send. One is measuring a 1/4" shaft, the other an 1/8th" shaft. 

[2many]

[kgallen]

OK, listen up, this is how to read your micrometer from what I can glean from your pictures and references.

 

So on your micrometer main shaft:

• the main scale is in 0.1" (so 100 thou).
• the incremental scale is thus 25 thou (there are 4 per main scale)

On the micrometer ring, I'm assuming it goes 0 to "100" as the "20" looks like about a fifth of the way round

• so the ring is in thou

When you read the main scale, you ignore any "part" increments because that extra bit is taken from the ring (which should be on 0 when you're exactly on an incremental mark). So only count increment marks you can actually see.

• So your 1/4" rod is 2 *100thou (main scale) + 2 *25thou (main scale increments) + 20thou (on the ring) = 270thou (so about 1/4" which would be 250thou).
• Your screwdriver is 1 *100thou + 1 *25thou + 10thou = 135thou  - so 135thou which is pretty much 1/8"

So back to the belts.

• The thin one (the "old" one?) is 55 thou = 1.4mm
• The thick one (the new 17mm?) is 70 thou = 1.75mm

A European teaching an American (?) to read an imperial tool - what next - Boris Johnson as UK PM?!

[2many]

4 minutes ago, kgallen said:

OK, listen up, this is how to read your micrometer from what I can glean from your pictures and references.

 

So on your micrometer main shaft:

• the main scale is in 0.1" (so 100 thou).
• the incremental scale is thus 25 thou (there are 4 per main scale)

On the micrometer ring, I'm assuming it goes 0 to "100" as the "20" looks like about a fifth of the way round

• so the ring is in thou

When you read the main scale, you ignore any "part" increments because that extra bit is taken from the ring (which should be on 0 when you're exactly on an incremental mark). So only count increment marks you can actually see.

• So your 1/4" rod is 2 *100thou (main scale) + 2 *25thou (main scale increments) + 20thou (on the ring) = 270thou (so about 1/4" which would be 250thou).
• Your screwdriver is 1 *100thou + 1 *25thou + 10thou = 135thou  - so 135thou which is pretty much 1/8"

So back to the belts.

• The thin one (the "old" one?) is 55 thou = 1.4mm
• The thick one (the new 17mm?) is 70 thou = 1.75mm

A European teaching an American (?) to read an imperial tool - what next - Boris Johnson as UK PM?!

Ha, that's funny. Thank you for your deciphering! In the meantime, I did a google search for sony loading belts. They can be had on store sites such as walmart, (out of stock) amazon (6 available)  Problem is, they are $13.99 plus $4.63 shipping!!!

They are being supplied by a place called "buy parts here". When you call buy parts here you get some variant of global sales... fishy smelling. I already bought wrong belts from global. Also found them at "overstock" (two left) again 13.99 each. Neither give any specs. I would like to have the proper belts in my decks. But...At this point, I am just about to stick with rubber bands unless I can find a proper belt at a decent price. 

[kgallen]

If you really want genuine belts then having a search around Japanese sites might be worth a try.

[kgallen]

List of Sony machines using Sony loading belt part number 4-227-025-01:

belt_4-227-025-01.pdf

[2many]

1 hour ago, kgallen said:

List of Sony machines using Sony loading belt part number 4-227-025-01:

belt_4-227-025-01.pdf 202.6 kB · 3 downloads

Just about to pull what little hair I have left OUT! At least we seem to have a proper part number from sony's files now...

4-227-025-01

I surely would like to have proper belt quality going in to my 940's as they are not easily extracted from my work station. As for the e12's, it isn't as much of a problem to remove the deck.(currently using rubber bands) The belt 4-227-025-01 pdf above is a fantastic resource. In a few hours, when they open, I will try encompass electronics in las vegas nevada. They list the item. (at a better price than most) I do still have two new belts on the way, (currently in new york and in transit) from "web-spare-parts". We shall see what they think the right belt is for a mds e-12. Many other sources show that belt (4-227-025-01) as out of stock or no longer available.

I would think that belts should be found for just about anything and going in incremental sizes so that you can retrofit just about anything needing a belt. Yet for some one like me, it has been difficult to find a supplier or to properly identify what I need. 

I found a Brazilian supplier, but would rather avoid any more international purchases or further guessing if they indeed know what the right belt is... A pair of belts from rubber king. At least in the picture they provide, the belts look more like the original sony! But why a pair of belts?

Another fact that throws me for a loop is the fact that some suppliers state something to the effect;

"This deck takes two belts, make sure you got the right one". There is only one belt in a 940 or e12....right?

 

 

[2many]

Just found this info on how to measure a belt from the Wagneronline.com site. They show a host of belts in the 1.4mm square thickness.

HOW TO MEASURE

PLEASE READ ME! 
Suit Cassette, Portable, Dictation machines, Personal Audio, 3in1, Turntable, CD, and maybe some Reel to Reel.  
For Video it is advised that you use only original parts, please enquire. 
Please take care in measuring and selecting the correct size of belt. Extract and squeeze the belt together, measure its length then double it to give you the belts total length. Note: Do Not Order using the Length value. From the tables listed, read off the diameter. This is the value used in our codes. Choose the next size down if the belt is stretched. The thickness is a measure of the cross-section of the belt. If the belt is missing or damaged beyond recovery then you could duplicate the belt by running a piece of string around the mech' and use its length as a general guide. Please take advantage of our discount structure. The belts are available individually but are 10% cheaper if bought in bag quantities of ten (No mixed values). 
WHEN ORDERING QUOTE THE DIAMETER & THICKNESS ONLY 

They range from;

 

Image	Order Code	LENGTH	More Info	Cost inc GST	Cart
	10X1.4	31 mm	Details	$ 3.00	-+ Add To Cart
	12X1.4	38 mm	Details	$ 3.00	-+ Add To Cart
	13X1.4	41 mm	Details	$ 3.00	-+ Add To Cart
	15X1.4	47 mm	Details	$ 3.00	-+ Add To Cart
	17X1.4	54 mm	Details	$ 3.00	-+ Add To Cart
	19X1.4	60 mm	Details	$ 3.65	-+ Add To Cart
	22X1.4	69 mm	Details	$ 3.65	-+ Add To Cart
	25X1.4	79 mm	Details	$ 3.65	-+ Add To Cart
	27X1.4	84 mm	Details	$ 3.65	-+ Add To Cart
	30X1.45	94 mm	Details	$ 3.95	-+ Add To Cart
	31X1.4	97 mm	Details	$ 3.65	-+ Add To Cart
	33X1.4	103 mm	Details	$ 3.65	-+ Add To Cart
	35X1.4	110 mm	Details	$ 3.85	-+ Add To Cart
	37X1.4	116 mm	Details	$ 3.85

[kgallen]

The E12 SM only lists one belt.

That supplier above confuses things by not being clear on what they mean by "length" in their table - "length" or "total length" per their measurement description. As it happens we can use some simple maths to interpret their data, but they could have been clearer...

So let's take their "37X1.4" belt listed with "length 116". Diameter is 37. Circumference of a circle is diameter x pi, so 37 x 3.1415 = 116mm. So what they list in the table as "length" is actually what they describe as "total length" (i.e. circumference) in their measurement instructions (i.e. double the measured squeezed-together length).

So you're looking at their 17X1.4 - or 19X1.4 if you really think the 17mm dia belts are too small.

[2many]

Yes, thanks.

I ask myself why the 17mm belts do not work for me when they are fine for others.

 

I have a completely new line on proper sony stock. Shipping from denver colorado. I will continue to show the results as time goes on. I bought out their current stock of 7 belts. Provides me with one extra. Fingers crossed. I was shown a picture of the item I am purchasing. Looks right!

[kris01]

On 7/20/2019 at 6:57 PM, kris01 said:

 

this one fits 

https://pl.eetgroup.com/i/499953701-Sony-Loading-Belt  , 33 mm 1,5 x 1,5 mm

MDS-JA20ES

MDS-JA333ES

MDS-JA555ES

 

I made mistake should be 33 mm 1,2 x 1,2 mm.