No Hi-MD for this Musician!

[Sharpo51]

3) Sony told me i could always high-speed upload ATRAC-compressed stuff I record (Just not PCM!) and access the files freely for conversion.

Did Sony tell you some details about the conversion? I doubt that all recordings on Hi-MD can be exported without any restrictions.

Gunther

[Michael_Walker]

Excerpt from the transcript of my :

Arnold: I am afraid the PCM tracks from the MD cannot be transferred to the computer.

You: not at all? that kind of defeats the whole purpose of buying one! what kind of recordings CAN be transferred from the MD to the computer?

Arnold: The tracks that are recorded in HiMD mode (ATRAC) can only be transferred back to computer for editing.

You: hmmm.. so ATRAC3 (256K-ish) recordings is the best it can do,( if i want to be able to later edit the tracks on the puter), but i can record linear PCM to disks to sort of "archive" material (although i can never actually do anything with the archives - aside from play them on the MD unit) ??? Is that correct?

Arnold: Yes, you are correct.

(** full transcript of my chat is here: http://forums.minidisc.org/viewtopic.php?t=5316 )

[Sharpo51]

Excerpt from the transcript of my :

[...]

You: hmmm.. so ATRAC3 (256K-ish) recordings is the best it can do,( if i want to be able to later edit the tracks on the puter), but i can record linear PCM to disks to sort of "archive" material (although i can never actually do anything with the archives - aside from play them on the MD unit) ??? Is that correct?

Arnold: Yes, you are correct.

If Hi-MD decks become available it should be possible to play the PCM tracks and record them via a digital connection. - But of course this is no replacement for a faster PC-based access of the data.

Gunther

[mmp64]

"...can only be transferred back to computer for editing. "

What does that mean? What kind of editing can you do to Hi-SP files in SonicStage? Also - does this or does this not mean that you can burn those uploaded Hi-SP tracks to Audio CD?

[Michael_Walker]

my understanding is that you cannot EDIT anything in SonicStage - but rather it will allow you to EXPORT ('ATRAC-recorded') files by converting them into a format that you CAN edit (like a WAV file...)

( ** and once you have it in WAV, you can do anything you like with it ... burn, convert to MP3, etc etc)

[bhangraman]

SONICSTAGE PROVIDES NO ABILITY TO TRANSFER UPLOADED HI-MD RECORDINGS OUT OF SONICSTAGE IN AN UNSECURED FORMAT.

SONICSTAGE PROVIDES NO EDITING FACILITIES.

[sup8]

so basically the file is locked in a program that doesn't allow you to do anything with it.. but listen to it on your PC. no way to get it into Audacity?

[dex Otaku]

Sony appears to have relegated their format once again. It seems such a stupid decision, considering the fact that every person I know that has an MD recorder uses it for one thing and one thing only - location recording for later editing. The last time I met someone who used MD for listening to prerecorded music was in 1995.

I have been interviewed by and worked [volunteered] with the CBC here and for pretty much all their radio recording they use MD portables. Of course, they probably have those expensive British pro drives that let you extract the audio directly with a computer, or decks with digital out, but still.. when an entire country's national broadcaster relies on this type of equipment and almost every one of their radio recordists carries one in their pack.. eh, maybe they'll make something available to pros at a huge price like they so often do.

There's also the point that by doing things this way [making PCM recordings virtually completely useless] they've directly contradicted the well-established - though both easily circumvented and somewhat flexible in its philosophy and implementation - system of SCMS that has been in place since what, the late 1980s?

If they allow check-in and check-out of ATRAC recordings, they should at least be consistent with existing industry practices with first-generation PCM recordings.

Until either Sony decide to allow people fair use of their own material [i'll repeat - I have met no one since 1995 that uses MD for personal music listening, ONLY for first-gen location recording] or someone in the OSS and/or linux communities backward-engineers the system to allow direct extraction of audio via USB, I guess I'll be dumping by analogue with the MZ-NH700 I preordered.

It'll still be a step up from the analogue dumping from standard [not to mention borrowed] MD equipment that I've been doing for the past few years.

[Michael_Walker]

SONICSTAGE PROVIDES NO ABILITY TO TRANSFER UPLOADED HI-MD RECORDINGS OUT OF SONICSTAGE IN AN UNSECURED FORMAT.

SONICSTAGE PROVIDES NO EDITING FACILITIES.

hmm this is in direct opposition to what the sony rep told me:

Arnold: The tracks that are recorded in HiMD mode (ATRAC) can only be transferred back to computer for editing.

granted, its bad english - but what else could Arnold be trying to say but "Only the tracks that are recorded in HiMD mode (ATRAC) can be transferred back to computer for editing. " (as opposed to the PCM tracks that cannot be transferred to the computer at all)

in any event - i was asking him POINT BLANK how i could record my own original live music on the MD and then get it back into the computer to edit - and he does say "for editing" - what else could he be referring to but "export to WAV"??

[Michael_Walker]

hmmm - SEMANTICS!

then those bastards at sony are very clever liars... "oh, i will pretend you mean "what sony says by the word editing", when really i know damn well you mean something else"...

reading the MANUAL, i now see that in sonicstage you can do what they call "EDITING" - basically just splitting big files into smaller ones, or combining small ones into a big one ( nothing but a glorified playlist function, basically)

and if the manual I am reading is correct, then this is the most crippled device EVER - you cannot convert MP3s directly into an ATRAC to upload - you first have to burn your MP3s to an audio CD - and then rip em from THERE? Am i Missing something??

[crazeybt1]

Thank God for these forums..

i haven't gotten my hands on my unit yet but you guys are really putting some light on some very important issues.

it's totally bad that you cannot upload PCM so much for me saying that PCM playback on MDs is a big step up what good is it if it can only be manipulated on the unit which i'm sure is going to take up a lot of time and battery.. tsk tsk..

Michael Walker said

and if the manual I am reading is correct, then this is the most crippled device EVER - you cannot convert MP3s directly into an ATRAC to upload - you first have to burn your MP3s to an audio CD - and then rip em from THERE? Am i Missing something??

is that true?

i mean that's the most nonsensical thing i've ever heard

[Gino]

Actually, I have done just that w/ Sonicstage 2.0. You can import mp3 files and convert them to atrac for transfer to Hi-MD

[mmp64]

1) Yes, you can directly MP3 directly into ATRAC using SonicStage. You don't have to burn them to a CD first. This functionality has existed for several years.

2) If indeed you can record something in Hi-SP, upload it to your PC, and rip to a CD in .wav format (not ATRAC) format, then they will have given us essentially what we wanted. Since the ability to record in PCM on a MD unit did not exist prior to the introduction of Hi-MD, what most people were doing was recording in SP - and what they wanted was the ability to quickly upload these SP recordings to PC to burn to audio CD. But I think we're all just going to have to wait until the units ship before we really find out.

3) SonicStage 2.0 seems to have no ability to "edit" files - like 1.5 did (by editing, I mean divide, combine, etc.) A previous poster compared this ability to a playlist - not sure what in the world that has to do with a playlist. The purpose of this fuctionality is to trim unwanted stuff out of a track, or combine multiple tracks into one. This is very useful for musicians, reporters, and other associated audio geeks (i.e., people who may, for example, record TV shows or audio books to MD, and would like to edit out commercials, etc.) Of course, all of this can still be done directly on the unit.

[bhangraman]

Um... I don't know how many times I've typed this, but you can't burn an uploaded recording to Audio CD. I've had the NH1 for a while before release and what you get is a message saying 'I can't do it due to copyright restrictions'.

[Yiggy]

Saw this on Head-Fi under Bhangra's review post.

Looks like you can't yet, but they're thought about it and its on the way (uploading recordings for moving around that is).

Word from Sony on uploading 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I contacted Sony about this obvious gaffe -- that Hi-MD let's you upload your audio but not do anything useful with it.

I received this info:

We are developing a software application called the Hi-MD wave

converter (as a companion to Sonic Stage) that will allow the consumer

to convert the uploaded files (that were recorded from the Hi-MD) into

WAV. By doing so, the file will be unleashed from any security and the

consumer will have the flexibility to do whatever they want with the

file (burn, edit, convert to MP3 etc.) using any audio application.

This application will only convert content that has been recorded

through the line-in via an "analog" interface. In other words

recordings that are made through the line-in via a "digital" interface

need to be protected from duplication under AHRA (Audio Home Recording

Act). It is a law that all digital recording device manufacturers must

follow (since 1992).

The software will be available for free from our Walkman support site.

I asked when it would be available and they said:

I think the fall. I don't have exact timing yet.

So -- at least they realize that the current upload offering won't fly as it is.

http://www5.head-fi.org/forums/showthread....?t=78472&page=2

Poster Was Ewoudenburg

Ploop.

Yig out.

[mmp64]

I stand corrected - on both counts.

[dex Otaku]

Saw this on Head-Fi under Bhangra's review post.

Looks like you can't yet, but they're thought about it and its on the way (uploading recordings for moving around that is).

http://www5.head-fi.org/forums/showthread....?t=78472&page=2

Poster Was Ewoudenburg

Ploop.

Yig out.

Yay! I hope this is true. Maybe they read what I said about just waiting for the hackers to figure it out for everyone else. :*)

D.

[jazmaan]

Let's hope the conversions are speedy.

[dex Otaku]

Let's hope the conversions are speedy.

I can't say I honestly care about the speed that much. As long as it's realtime or faster, I'm happy.

What I'm more concerned with is generation loss incurred by repeated A/D - D/A cycles, recompression, etc.

When I go to start my editing, I want the -original- recording, not something that's been through one or two passes of processing before it even makes it into the editor.

[Ppk3000]

I am not majorly concerned of Hi-MD's restriction to decrypt imported (uploaded) MD recordings. I think the "recording the computer playback" method should work fine.

I did a simulation of the "Wave Mix" recording scenario on my own by playing a short 60 seconds 320kbps mp3 and using Window's Sound Recorder to pick up the sound output and saving as WAV. As far as my hearing can go with my MDR-EX71 buds, there seems to be no noticeable difference between the original (.mp3) and the re-recorded (.wav) version.

However, anyone attempting this method should take note that all pre-amped settings should be set to their "neutral" state. So turn down those treble/bass boost... volume should be reduced to avoid distortion etc. etc.

On the note of preservation. I believe it's impossible to keep the "dubbed" version 100% identical to the original recording due to the nature of mixer settings (i.e.: volume) and possibly hardware/software factors. But the overall quality and integrity should be quite high in most cases. So I think I'll still get an NH900/NH1 when it starts showing up in retail's.

(P.S.: anyone know why the Sony's Hi-MD "players" are shipping with the [rumored] "unlocked" SonicStage 2.1 while all the recorders are shipped with version 2.0? It's not like the plain Hi-MD players need the ability to burn/extract recordings :whatever:)

[Michael_Walker]

Saw this on Head-Fi under Bhangra's review post.

Looks like you can't yet, but they're thought about it and its on the way (uploading recordings for moving around that is).

Word from Sony on uploading 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

... We are developing a software application called the Hi-MD wave

converter (as a companion to Sonic Stage) that will allow the consumer

to convert the uploaded files (that were recorded from the Hi-MD) into

WAV...

This application will only convert content that has been recorded

through the line-in via an "analog" interface. ... The software will be available for free from our Walkman support site

THAT just made my day :grin:

Actually what would REALLY make my day is if SONY actually delivers the Hi-MD recording unit they promised to deliver this morning...

[hobgoblin]

well given that one still dont have ngscb or similar running on a computer what stops anyone from writeing a sudeo driver that acts like the diskwriter in winamp? you play the song in sonicstage but rather then going to the soundcard it goes to the software device that converts it into pcm/wav and saves it to disk?

[ekiekitabaang]

Aahhh! what a relief. I can start waiting again for the best device for my purposes.

If they remove the copy protection from analog input recordings (obviously your own mic recordings) these units will find no competitors as a recording device... in this prize scale, size, handiness and sound quality. :smile:

Hmm but Sharp with its 1-bit digital amplifier could make it even better.

Yes, a Hi-MD for this musician..

though not earlier than this has been proven true.

[jadeclaw]

What I still don't get is the fact, that Sony is imposing this DRM-stuff to Europe as well as the legal situation is totally different over here.

While the circumvention of any copyprotection is illegal, there is no requirement for any recording device to have any form of copyprotection. So for europe, they could offer unlimited export and it would be still legal.

Another point: Maybe we have here some legal eagles, who can point out, why Sony's Hi-MD recorder have to conform to the AHRA, while other manufacturers can sell their recorders without any copyprotection at all.

The professional decks from Denon und Tascam come to mind. Sony's very own PCMM1 DAT recorder too...

EDIT: I shouldn't read legal stuff in the morning.

After rereading the AHRA, I found it myself:

Section 1001: 

(A) professional model products, and 

( dictation machines, answering machines, and other audio recording equipment that is designed and 

marketed primarily for the creation of sound recordings resulting from the fixation of nonmusical sounds.

So, just changing the marketing allows to get rid of the DRM junk?

LINK: http://www.virtualrecordings.com/ahra.htm

[papagoose]

Hope it will also convert the mic-in recordings to WAV.

[Rumz]

Damn, I have been out of the loop for some time I guess. Hi-MD / Sonic Stage 2.0 documentation led me to believe (stated directly) that you could take PCM recordings, upload them, and then download them to other Hi-MD discs-- that they *were* uploadable if only for use on other Hi-MD discs. WTF?

[Ppk3000]

Damn, I have been out of the loop for some time I guess.  Hi-MD / Sonic Stage 2.0 documentation led me to believe (stated directly) that you could take PCM recordings, upload them, and then download them to other Hi-MD discs-- that they *were* uploadable if only for use on other Hi-MD discs.  WTF?

That's Sony for ya... but I took a peek at the NH1 manual and on page 96, 2 diagrams implies no "2nd hand copying"... perhaps a fancy way to hide the ugly truth. Hopefully that Sonic Stage 2.1 fix rumor is true.

[Rumz]

My only guess is that Sonic Stage 2.1 is intended more as a full-blown Hi-MD software package? Because the english user manual for the NH1 specifically mentions the uploading of PCM recordings from Hi-MD to PC on pages 112-113. You *should* be able to upload those PCM recordings. I would guess that this manual is bundled with the same units that will be bundled with 2.1...

[dex Otaku]

My only guess is that Sonic Stage 2.1 is intended more as a full-blown Hi-MD software package?  Because the english user manual for the NH1 specifically mentions the uploading of PCM recordings from Hi-MD to PC on pages 112-113.  You *should* be able to upload those PCM recordings.  I would guess that this manual is bundled with the same units that will be bundled with 2.1...

My understanding is that yes, you can upload anything you record on your Hi-MD [in Hi-MD mode] but you are currently restricted to three uses of it from your computer:

1) backing it up [as an encrypted file]

2) playing it back [through Sonicstage only]

or 3) Copying it back to Hi-MD

[meatbingo]

This WAV conversion program sounds interesting (and essential for how I want to use the Hi-MD), but surely it should be something built into Sonicstage rather than a seperate app?

Having to upload the recordings into Sonicstage and then having to use another program to convert them into WAVs before loading them into Soundforge for editing sounds somehow less appealing than just recording the output of my MD player directly into Soundforge, which is what I do now... :

[Ppk3000]

Having to upload the recordings into Sonicstage and then having to use another program to convert them into WAVs before loading them into Soundforge for editing sounds somehow less appealing than just recording the output of my MD player directly into Soundforge, which is what I do now... :

...might not be the most convinient thing, but Sony's utility would probably keep the WAV quality much closer to the original recording :happy:

[dex Otaku]

...might not be the most convinient thing, but Sony's utility would probably keep the WAV quality much closer to the original recording :happy:

If you're recording in LPCM, and upload it*, such a utility would just be for decrypting the OGM version. You would have a bit-for-bit copy of the original.

* - assuming Sony holds to their advertising etc. and actually allows this - it's even in the manuals I've looked at so far

[meatbingo]

If you're recording in LPCM, andupload it, such a utility would just be for decrypting the OGM version.  You would have a bit-for-bit copy of the original.

I got the impression from reading other posts that we would only be able to upload recordings made in compressed formats.

For me, being able to record in PCM and upload then convert to WAV would be the ideal. Like you say, a conversion from PCM to WAV should be quick and excellent quality. I hope this is the case.

[wheron]

I have my HN-900 pre-ordered from Minidisco, so I hope you won't accuse me of heresy, but my Archos AV300 works very nicely for recording live concerts. Besides being a terrific mp3 and avi player, it records using an external mike, saving the files as either wave or mp3 (with a wide selection of sampling and bitrates). Once I get home, my computer sees it as an external hard drive, so uploading the wave file into Audition for editing is a snap.

Admittedly, its larger and heavier than a minidisk recorder: 4.4x3.2x1.2 inches and 12.5 ounces, but in reality, its the size and bulk of a boxed juice drink. Recording time is 8 hours on a full charge of the internal battery. And with 60 GB, there's room for a roadtrip's worth of recordings.

Given the crippled nature of the HI-MD at present, the Archos is worth considering.

[jadeclaw]

I have a problem with that one:

According to the Website, MP3 with 160kBit/s is the maximum datarate when recording and for good sound quality, MP3 needs a lot more - about 320kBit for a sensitive ear.

I suspect, that yours is modified, the biggest of the 300 series has only 40 GB.

[wheron]

Regarding the Archos AV320, the highest setting for mp3 recording is setting 8 (192kbit/s CBR), but I would record as a wave file if I intended to edit (and there is always something to edit). Of course, if you are transfering recordings to the Archos, you can use any bitrate, up to 320.

You are correct about the 60 GB - the HDD was upgraded. But upgraded units are available on Ebay.

[Happy Hopping]

By the way whats all this about mi-md blanks being rare in the us? Theres heaps of them at the local shop along with the silver and gold nh1 models and .

where did you see the gold NH1 in US? Please let me know.

[woppin]

im in japan, ill post you one :laugh: . the gold unit looks terrible (as i think someone else has already stated somewhere). The silver unit looks a whole lot better. I was also going to get the gold unit but decided it just didnt look good enough. It lacks the bright shiny qualities of the silver model. Not a dull gold, but not overly shiny either. I would take photos for you but again, photos cant really demonstrate the difference between the two units. I guess maybe it could grow on you over time...

[Christopher]

Pictorial of the Gold NH1 here: http://www.8080.net/html/200407/p152123510.html

Make sure you view all the pages.