quality of hi-md??????

[sony_man]

hey, right now i had a sony ne410 and an ipod. they were both great but i was wondering how good the sound quality is on the new hi-mds? i mean, 64kbps? do i might as well get a regular md again later?

if you can use regular discs than id be happy with that, but my other question is are you able to do regular lp, lp3 etc. on the hi-md discs?

thanks.

[Ipaqman]

The new Hi-LP 64kbps codec is improved. It is supposedly equivalent to 128kbps MP3 CBR. However, many listeners don't like 128k MP3s. For me, 128k MP3s were good enough and so are Hi-LP encoded music files. I have older ears and mostly popular and gospel music, so higher bitrates don't provide much improvement.

I have the NH1 and the older R900 (4 years old). They are both great machines, but the NH1 is improved in many ways to the R900. I did not buy into the NetMDs, so I can't compare the changes in functionality from NetMD to Hi-MD.

I bought the NH1 for my current recording needs. I wanted the greater capacityand the NetMD/Hi-MD upload/download functionality.

[sony_man]

so then the 64kbps has improved meaning its better quality 64kbps, and that a hi-md would be a bit better.

And thats not the only thing im worried about, its the killer prices! i mean im in canada and the currency makes the prices seem so much more than it really is! sometimes i wish i was in the u.s. so that prices dont seem such heart attack starters.

[vova]

The bad news is that the new Hi-SP and Hi-LP don't sound all that good - the 256k hi-sp sounds too harsh and metallic, and not worth the extra file size in my view, hi-lp sounds like what it is - a puny 64k codec

The good news is that you still get the old reliable LP2 mode, which may not be terribly accurate but still eminently listenable

[Christopher]

vova, what kind of headphones are you using?

[Ipaqman]

In addition, some users have noted that there is a noticeable difference in the sound output from the high end machines (NH1 and 900) compared to the low end machines. One user reported that the sound is much smoother and warmer from the NH1 than the 600. In fact, someone reported that the output sound from the NH1 sounds better than that output from SonicStage on a PC.

Please take all of these comments with a grain of salt. If you search around, you may find the original posts that I read a while ago. But as one poster on Head-fi wrote, he likes the colored sound on his MD more than the "pure" sound of an Ipod. The sound was more "fun" from his point of view and less "harsh". Personally, if I enjoy the music, I could care less about the accuracy.

[Ppk3000]

The bad news is that the new Hi-SP and Hi-LP don't sound all that good - the 256k hi-sp sounds too harsh and metallic, and not worth the extra file size in my view, hi-lp sounds like what it is - a puny 64k codec

Hi-SP's metallic/harsh sound is more related to the Digital Amp included with the higher end Hi-MD models... after testing with SonicStage/MZNH1 with VJ700DJ 'phones myself, I can certainly say the "metallic" feeling is made by the MD unit's output itself, while the ATRAC3+ 256kbps encoding reproduces the sound very accurately while I played the sound back on the PC.

[Ipaqman]

I am wondering whether there are different production batch issues with the NH1. I just got my NH1 a week ago as one of the first available from USA retailers. It sounds as good or better than my MZ-R900 playing SP tracks. I tested using a vocal track and an instrumental track. I did not hear anything metallic sounding or harsh.

At least one other poster compared his brand new NH1 with a friend's NH600 and considered the NH1 better sounding.

So maybe there are some "faulty" digital amps out there because mine sounds very good. I also compared to an IHP-120 and NJB3.

[DrZhivago]

I am wondering whether there are different production batch issues with the NH1.  I just got my NH1 a week ago as one of the first available from USA retailers.  It sounds as good or better than my MZ-R900 playing SP tracks. I tested using a vocal track and an instrumental track.  I did not hear anything metallic sounding or harsh.

At least one other poster compared his brand new NH1 with a friend's NH600 and considered the NH1 better sounding.

So maybe there are some "faulty" digital amps out there because mine sounds very good.  I also compared to an IHP-120 and NJB3.

Yep, I was wondering that too. Could it also be, that some headphones don't work that well with MZNH1 digital amp? I think that's very possible.

My MZNH1 works quite well with a pair of Sony 71EX. Sound quality is much better than in any of NetMD players I owned.

Cheers

[Ppk3000]

Yep, I was wondering that too. Could it also be, that some headphones don't work that well with MZNH1 digital amp? I think that's very possible. 

My MZNH1 works quite well with a pair of Sony 71EX. Sound quality is much better than in any of NetMD players I owned.

With my EX71's, the output sound is nearly the same on both the PC and the MD unit... but with the stronger VJ700's (which is what I used to evaluate the sound quality in my NH1 review), it clearly shows the high frequency range is slightly different... I wouldn't really say it's metallic or harsh, but I do find it slightly different.

I'll see if it's any different with the NH900 soon when my friend gets his own Hi-MD recorder :happy:

I do agree that the sound is much better than the NetMD line... at least it certainly sounds better than my N10.

[Ipaqman]

Yep, I was wondering that too. Could it also be, that some headphones don't work that well with MZNH1 digital amp? I think that's very possible.

My MZNH1 works quite well with a pair of Sony 71EX. Sound quality is much better than in any of NetMD players I owned. 

Cheers

I tried out my NH1 with MX400s, E3Cs, and E888s. They all sounded good. These match well in terms of impedance to the NH1 output. The 5mw output was more than strong enough. I was listening at volume level 15 out of 30. Level 20 was tops for me. I use about the same levels on my IHP-120 which has more output power. So it seems that you may have hit upon a significant point about the headphones.

[DrZhivago]

With my EX71's, the output sound is nearly the same on both the PC and the MD unit... but with the stronger VJ700's (which is what I used to evaluate the sound quality in my NH1 review), it clearly shows the high frequency range is slightly different... I wouldn't really say it's metallic or harsh, but I do find it slightly different.

I'll see if it's any different with the NH900 soon when my friend gets his own Hi-MD recorder :happy:

I do agree that the sound is much better than the NetMD line... at least it certainly sounds better than my N10.

Yeah,that may as well be the case. Unfort. I don't have E3's on me anymore to give it a better try. As for the high-range sound, I also find it to sound different (tested PCM mode on line-out),but there's no word in my freakin english to describe the difference :wacky:. It's just different and I can't say if it's better or worse. Bottom line, I am very happy with NH1 sound. :cool:

[Christopher]

Oh, of course there is. I've heard it summarized well from others, although the general consensus about these HD amps is conflicting..I need to get a NH900, but I am forced to buy computer. Baaaaaaah

[DrZhivago]

Oh, of course there is. I've heard it summarized well from others, although the general consensus about these HD amps is conflicting..I need to get a NH900, but I am forced to buy computer. Baaaaaaah

Similar debate is raging at the home digital receiver forums. Some people are finding new sony digital amps(S-Master) much better than analogue ones. Others on the other hand have had all sort of problems with them,ranging from weird sound to low output levels. What I gathered is that it has lot to do with speakers. Well, I'm not sure if there is any analogy with Hi-MD dig. amp(i may be talking out of my ass ) but apparently these dig. amps are much more choosy :grin: when it comes to speakers/headphones.

Or,is there design/manufacturing glitch in Sony ones?

Dunno

Cheers

[vova]

vova, what kind of headphones are you using?

Senn px100 and Koss Sportapro

I might add that my comments refer to the 600D hi-md.

[Sbetsho]

Hi-LP is surprisingly good in my books. If you are travelling and want to listen music, Hi-LP is perfectly acceptable.

[Ppk3000]

Hi-LP is surprisingly good in my books. If you are travelling and want to listen music, Hi-LP is perfectly acceptable.

What kind of music do you listen do, and in what environment?

Sadly, I can even hear the artifacts caused by Hi-LP with rock music coming out of the crappy stock earbuds doing casual listening while taking a 15-30 min jog... with those modest conditions, it's either my hearing is great (hah! yeah right...) or Hi-LP is no good for rock music.

I suppose it'd make a little bit more sense if you listen to music in loud places?

[aeriyn]

Sadly, I can even hear the artifacts caused by Hi-LP with rock music coming out of the crappy stock earbuds doing casual listening while taking a 15-30 min jog... with those modest conditions, it's either my hearing is great (hah! yeah right...) or Hi-LP is no good for rock music.

I agree. To my ears, which are not all that great (slight tinnitus in my left ear and a bilateral high-frequency loss in both ears), Hi-LP sounds just a tiny bit better than old LP4. The stereo effect is much more noticeable on Hi-LP than it is on LP4 (almost sounds mono on LP4 actually), but the compression artifacts are... well, about the same.

I continue to use standard MD, SP and LP2, because I love the sound of Sharp's Auvi units, and since Sony has not licensed Hi-MD tech to Sharp for unit production (yet), I'm staying with regular MD.

At least, until either Sharp releases an Auvi Hi-MD unit and/or Hi-MD battery life increases.

[Sbetsho]

I listen Techno and Pop, and it seems like Hi-LP is much more suitable for those genres. And Hi-LP is not just tiny bit better than LP4, I can say that it is about 50-75% better, as I have been listening LP4 alot, and I was very positively surprised by the quality of Hi-LP. I listen minidisc all kind of places, and I usually play it at maximum volume, and it's great, I think I have tinnitus in my both ears, but I don't notice it unless I think about it.

Of course, if I specifically think the quality while listening Hi-LP that it is not that great, but usually I just enjoy the music I have been listening for ages and I don't think "this is not good sound-quality", thus Hi-LP is just as good as listening CD-quality, it is not any less enjoyable.

[aeriyn]

I guess if you enjoy it, then more power to you. ^^

In normal ambient levels I can't tell the difference from LP2 and CD audio. But right now, I'm listening to an LP2 MD and I can hear... compression artifacts. They aren't severe enough to annoy me, not even close.

But LP4 does, and so does Hi-LP. It's all a matter of preference, and what you hear might be different from what others hear.

[sony_man]

sorry but whats a compression artifact?

[aeriyn]

Compression artifacts are the byproduct noise generated by an audio compression codec, i.e. ATRAC. They sound most unnatural and if audible, tend to ruin my musical mojo.

MP3's compression artifacts are metallic and generally irritating. ATRAC actually has more compression artifacts at a given bitrate than MP3, but they are of a less-disruptive nature (or so I'm told. To me, a compression artifact is a compression artifact, and if you can hear them pretty consistently, it is bad, and distracts from the experience of the music).

[mmp64]

I've encoded most of my library in Hi-LP (after much experimentation) - and have made "artist-only" MDs (mostly using Hi-MD blanks). However, I've recently become fascinated with the possibility of putting 50-60 CDs on one Hi-MD at 48K, and have found that for certain kinds of low-volume listening (both headphones and PC-quality speakers), it is acceptable. So I've made a "Desert Island CD Mix" of 57 essential CDs, "Classic Rock Essentials," etc. etc. I plan to have them on me at all times, as sort of an emergency backup. Of course, I still have my Hi-LP discs for when I want to really listen to something good, at high volumes. The other nice thing is that I don't have to re-encode, I just use the "minimum transfer mode" feature.

Of course, if you try to crank up a 48K MD....

[mmp64]

I meant to say that I've encoded most of my library in Hi-SP, not Hi-LP.

Sorry.

[aeriyn]

The other nice thing is that I don't have to re-encode, I just use the "minimum transfer mode" feature.

If you have your library encoded at 256kbit/sec Hi-SP, you better believe it's transcoding those files to get your 48kbit/sec files.

[sony_man]

The other nice thing is that I don't have to re-encode, I just use the "minimum transfer mode" feature.

so that means if your at hi-sp, you can just turn it into hi-lp?

[mmp64]

1) What I meant was re-rip... I of course realize that it is re-encoding to go from 256 to 48.

2) If your library is recorded at any bitrate, you can select a transfer mode of "Minimum Bit Rate Mode" (48K) and it will downsample on-the-fly. What they should do is enable you to select any bitrate - not just force you to 48K.

[sony_man]

ooooooooooooooooooooooooo ok

[Syrius]

Somebody answer me something.

How does a HI-SP track sound compared to a regular SP track, both made from the same source, through the optical cable? If you can't use HI-SP through the optical cable, how does it sound compared to SP made through similar means?

[dex Otaku]

Hi-Sp vs. SP: so far I'd say is directly comparable if not slightly better. Yes, it's a marginally lower bitrate, but atrac3+ also uses higher-resolution domain transforms, so even in theory alone it should be capable of doing better at a lower bitrate.

[bhangraman]

I don't think it's 'choosiness' of the amp. I used a large variety of phones to test sound quality and the differences between Hi-MD and other platforms were consistent. I must admit I was disappointed by the HD amp, especially in the sound-critical Line Out tests in how much the output of the NH1 deviated from the original, despite a codec that should preserve the original. The differences are therefore I believe not particularly related to the codec used on the Hi-MD: The core problem as I see it is the Hi-MD hardware itself (i.e. the amp) in rendering any codec that it supports.

I think that various interpretations of sound quality are dependent on the experience of the reviewer and on their equipment. For example, phones like the Sony MDR-V700DJ are IMO very 'nice' phones to listen to (and I do so regularly in the absence of the Sennheiser HD25-1) and rather practical in their way but hardly instruments for measuring sound quality.

I think most will find the headphone output just fine, and it is tuned as default to be slightly more 'agreeable' than 'flat & accurate' players like the iPod. With headphones that don't resolve much (such as the MDR-V700DJ) the differences will be negligible, and many may prefer the Hi-MD due to the 'flavour'.

[Leland]

I agree with mmp64. If you are not too exacting, and are only using it for portable listening, the lowest bitrate Hi-EP is not too bad. On the other hand, I think the sweet spot is LP 132 bps, which is unfortunately not matched with the atracplus format.

Now, I don't know what bhangraman really means by "sound-critical Line Out tests" later mentioning "'flat & accurate' players like the iPod" but I think that is somehow biased. I think he is perhaps an ipod fanboy. The Ipod does not have a Line out, so how can he call "Line out" critical and then later suggest the Ipod output is "flat"?

I have had MD since yonks, have tried Hi-MD, have an Ipod and and Ipod G4 as well as the Sony NW-HD1. I find the output of the Ipod to be harsh compared to any of the Sony formats. I am very happy to have a real line out on my NW-HD1, which the Ipod does not.

Overall, Sony has a great product, naysayers and confusers like bhangraman notwithstanding. He has no profile on this site. What is he trying to hide?

[bhangraman]

Ah... an iPod fanboy, eh? I like it, which I suppose makes me a fanboy. It has a line out. One of the best around for a portable actually. The only problem is that it's on the dock or via a third-party cable such as the Sik Din... but it is most definitely there. If you actually owned iPods as you claim, you would know that of course. Call me weird, but I think it's highly inappropriate for a moderator to be seeming to 'fake it'. I'm left wondering who the actual fanboy is.

Profile... I haven't bothered to fill it in.

Portables:

Current: MZ-NH1, MZ-N10, D-NE900, D-555, D-E555, D-25S, D-33, IMP-550, iAudio M3, iPod Mini, Nomad Jukebox 3, VAIO PCG-TR series laptop with Echo Indigo.

Recent Previous: Assorted old D-xxx, D-NE10, D-NE1, D-NE800, MZ-N1, MZ-N707, MZ-N710, MZ-N910, MZ-E10, MZ-E900, MD-MT170H, MD-MT888, MD-DR7, IM-DR420, D-EJ2000, iHP-120, iPod 3G, Creative Zen, etc.

Headphones:

Stax Omega II, Audio-Technica ATH-W2002, Audio-Technica ATH-D1000, Etymotic ER-4P/S, Shure E3c, Shure E5c, and many others.

Previous: Quite a lot: highlights include Sony MDR-CD3000, Sennheiser HD650 / HD600, Grado RS-1, Audio-Technica ATH-A100/W100/A900/A1000/W1000, etc.

As well as the Stax, I own a range of home sources appropriate to listening with it. And I ACTUALLY own all of these.

[aeriyn]

Calm down, people.

A real live person might stumble in here and be shocked to see you two arguing over something so trivial. The potential for embarrassment would be quite large, I'd imagine.

[bhangraman]

Heheheh. I thought arguments were what forums were for :rasp: But seriously (even if just for a moment), I frown at misinformation in forums, whichever way the bias goes. When it's a moderator, I'm doubly frowny. I'd also mention that he doesn't even own a Hi-MD. I'm definitely not commenting on the NW-HD1 until I get one.

And last but not least (pout) he started it! waaaaaaaaah! :laugh:

(Excuse the multiple edits for attempting to achieve a concise read.)

[Christopher]

People like you, overeditor, are the reason why I removed the "edited" tag alltogether. :laugh:

[dex Otaku]

People like you, overeditor, are the reason why I removed the "edited" tag alltogether. :laugh:

I do that too. :rasp:

[bhangraman]

overeditor... I like it.

[Christopher]

Doesn't sound eloquent enough; what about "Daft superfluous semi-perfectionist hen".

[/ends o/t] :rasp:

[Ppk3000]

what about "Daft superfluous semi-perfectionist hen".

:wacky: