bluecrab

Don't know about any SM photos, but I clearly recall that here in these very pages, a few years back, there was a discussion about the ATRAC Type of the JA20ES. Was it 4.5 or R? Someone took apart their 20ES and posted a photo of its chip, proving conclusively that it was Type R (CXD-2656). FWIW, I have or have had the 20/22ES, 930, and 940. I do notice a difference in how they sound, with the 20/22ES leading the way. As sfbp has noticed, you could use the 20ES for a bulletproof shield, too.

True, the 333ES isn't Type S. But despite that, its LP playback quality exceeds that of some Type S units (in particular, the MXD-D400); at least to my ears it did. I can only imagine how great a Type-S enabled 333ES would sound. I agree with Philippe, though, that listening through a Type R MD deck is MD at its best. I'm very eager to have my now-working JA22ES returned to me so that can start doing just that. As for the 33ES, I care not to speculate too much. Perhaps it is a kind of "333ES Lite"?

Thought I'd give a sort of intermediate update about the state of the recently repaired JA22ES. The unit is currently in use and is being fully tested for playback (not sure about recording) and is doing well. I expect it to be returned to me sometime later in July. It was agreed that unless and until the couple of missing teeth caused a problem, they could remain missing.

Very well done and I have passed along the info to repair-friend, although I think the current inclination is to leave this as is (couple of missing teeth) unless that breaks.

"Lacking an immediate replacement part, I had to take the time to fix the toothed rack - and it went well. " How did you do this? We're looking at missing teeth...how is that fixed without replacing the part?

Progress has been made. I am going to be concise as possible about what has happened and where things stand with the C13 Error on the JA22ES. I am editing heavily here (from my repair-friend's reports) while trying to retain accuracy. It was considered that something mechanical, not electrical, might be the root cause of the C13 error. While the tray mechanism seemed fine, the arm that hovers over the disc above the lens seemed a little stuck. Moving this arm to the right (as you're facing the unit) indicated some tightness. After a manual adjustment to the arm was made, a minidisc was read! Ejecting and reloading the disc led to the C13 error again, but after another manual adjustment of the arm, a minidisc was read once again. Sequence repeated a few times more, with similar results. A little lightweight grease was applied to two points on the sliders that the arm/lens mechanism slides on, and the slightest of pressure was applied to a spot that was resistant to moving easily (perhaps thrown out of alignment in shipping). The deck began to: - Play any number of 74 MDs (including Princos that couldn't get read before) - Play 80-minute MDs (previously failing) Adjustment was no longer necessary (previously, had to move the arm a little to the right). The greasing and nudge to a mechanism was all that it took. Testing continued. After a few days of playing MDs on the unit without any issue, the C13 occurred again. Despite unplugging the unit overnight, trying different MDs, etc, the issue seemed to be back...but not for good. The unit was opened up once more, and the drive mechanism (in the MBU-5C section) examined carefully. Two small black teeth had snapped off the mechanism and were stuck in another cog. Repeated careful spinning of the wheels to move the mechanism back and forth generated the click-click noise being heard after a disc was inserted and the head attempted to seek the TOC. The teeth stuck in the cog were dislodged and removed by using a paper clip with a small amount of grease on its end. Once this was done and the unit reassembled, discs began to play once again. The two teeth that broke off are part of a track mechanism, with black track on top and white track below it; the white track seems to move somewhat freely from the black track, but normally both move in unison (both the black track teeth and white track teeth are lined up, and are both moved by a cog wheel which is turned, via other cog wheels, by a small electric motor.). Some of the older grease has been removed, in case there's any chance of a repeat occurrence of the old grease being problematic. Suspected faulty part officlal part numbers are: 265-4-996-257-01-RACK (SL) 266-4-966-256-01 SL (BASE) It may be tricky getting to these parts if replacement is desired, as there is no easy way to get at the pieces without desoldering one or two spots on the board beneath the assembly. The parts are not expensive, but they are not available. They would be good to have on-hand, just in case there's a subsequent issue. At least one other deck (I think it's the JE520) contains these same parts, so perhaps if an old one of these can be found, that would serve as a source for the parts. The deck at this point is playing back with no issues whatsoever. Fingers crossed that the deck is happy! Best guess to how the unit arrived to this state: Unit, perhaps nearly brand new, sat in a box for a long time (years, perhaps). Unit was powered up, and possibly the first or second time a disc was played, the grease in the mechanism had frozen some movement, causing the teeth to snap, but allowed the unit to play for some period of time. Either through shipment or arrival or my initial use, the broken teeth got lodged in the cog, which prevented the mechanism from moving, preventing the head from doing proper seeking, and thus causing the C13 error. After the assembly was taken apart for the first time and grease applied to certain locations, that allowed the unit to play for a short time consistently. The broken teeth, which were lodged in the cog, moved ever so slightly, causing the mechanism to not move freely. Once the broken teeth lodged in the cog were removed, the mechanism began to move freely once again. That is where we now stand. Testing of the unit continues. I will report again as events unfold. Thanks to all!!!

Thank you both. I have forwarded your responses and we will go from there for now. NGY, thanks very much for your offer to lend the LPM and test jig. I will let you know if we need them. Very kind and generous of you! Bruce

Things have not gone well so far with the JA22ES's C13 Disc Error problem. Here is what is now known (these notes are from the person who has been working on the unit: Service Mode's self-diagnostic function provided the following information on the unit: The unit has a 'total rec' time of 11 hours. According to the service manual, this is 1/4 of the actual time spent recording. The unit has a 'total play' time of 87 hours. The unit has a 'total err' count of 'FF', which is the maximum value. The error history (last ten errors) are a collcetion of "E01" (disc error"), "E04" (address cannot be read - servo has deviated), and one "E0B" (not documented). Six of the errors are E04. Perhaps all of these counts can be cleared, but right now don't suspect that the original owner ever did so. Current value of "ldpwr check": the hex value was "10", which is what is considered the initial value. Testing that was performed: Increase ldpwr from 10 to 11. Restarted unit and still got C13 error. Increase ldpwr from 11 to 12. Same error. Decreased ldpwr from 12 to 0F. Same error. Increased ldpwr from 0F to 10. Same error. Increase ldpwr from 10 to 11. Same error. Increase ldpwr from 11 to 12. Same error. Increase ldpwr from 12 to 13. Same error. Increase ldpwr from 13 to 14. Same error. Decrease ldpwr from 14 to 11. Same error. Reset ldpwr back to 10. Looked for POT---could not find the pot, but found the handwritten '54 2' in expected location. This matched the C02 setting of 542 in RAM (IOP setting in RAM matched handwritten value), so no difference there. At this point, it's unclear whether the POT should be adjusted in combination with adjusting ldpwr on the unit. To further dig around for the POT (which should be adjustable), suspect that a few bits need to be desoldered, which would make everything dicey. Any thoughts/ideas on what else to try? Guess is that the optical unit may have been heading south and/or the servo mechanism may have been jostled in transit from Japan to US. I am feeling like this is going to be a dead end, but I did want to report on what has transpired so far. Many thanks for any clues anyone might have.

We're going to find out, as my likes-to-repair-gear guy has agreed to take a look. He does not want to solder, but other than that he will keep on looking for a solution until he either gets it or deems it beyond his expertise. He'll be using the SM in conjunction with the invaluable suggestions here. I must say that even if the JA22ES never plays another disc, it is still valuable and worthwhile as an outstanding DAC. I am using it as such as I write this. Thanks again, guys! I'll report on the results when they come in.

Thanks NGY. I will have to consult with my friend about this, but I think between the two of us we can at least decide whether to try this. Not needing any special gear is very helpful. I am a little wary of this delicate process, but considering that what have now is pretty much just a nice-looking DAC, it may well be worth it. Thanks again! Bruce

Sigh. Thanks, Stephen. Thus unit looks very far from abused, although the dim display is puzzling. I looked up the servo stuff in the SM...for one thing, I just don't have the necessary gear; for another, I'm not sure that my more-technically-skilled friend does either. Want to go into the MD deck repair business? I am an absolutely ace at getting difficult items shipped! I laugh at international borders! :-)

Mains voltage here is said to be 120v/60hz, as elsewhere in the US. I'm sure there are the usual 100-120 fluctuations. Think I read that on average, 177v would be about right. The thing about the stepdowns is that I have tried two of them (different brands) with the same result. So you think that running @120 for 5 minutes won't hurt the unit? Edit: OK, I plugged it right into the wall outlet. The display got brighter but the C13 Error persists. It seems that when I leave the unit unplugged overnight, then plug it in in the morning, it will read and play one disc. After that...C13. Edit #2: Further inspection reveals that the Maxell cleaning/test disc is a pre-recorded disc. These are physically different from blanks or home-recorded MDs. The Maxell will be read and will play every time. I feel like this means something, but not sure what.

Alas, I have neither the 333ES or the prior JA20ES any longer, so there is nothing to swap. (they do both have the tray, though.) Finding it runs better with the lid off is exactly what happened with a 940 that also had a C13. It succumbed eventually, though. It also seems to me that the 22ES's display is dimming.

I want to thank all of you for the responses. Despite the apparent unavailability of Jim and Jonathan and my lack of an LPM, I think I may have a few spins left in that JA22ES (which arrived in what looks like near-new condition about a month ago). I let the unit sit unplugged—not just powered off, unplugged—overnight and for now it has at least read one disc. I have been through this before with a JB940...that is, it gave the C13 consistently, and then after a day or two of being unplugged it would work—at least until it didn't and the C13 reappeared. Stephen, all I can tell you about the Maxell disc—I was surprised myself by how it works—is that you insert it and it is read. There are 6 tracks. The spoken instructions, which start with Tr. 1 or 2, tell you to move to Track 3 to clean. After that there are some sound checks and music samples. There must be some physical diff between the Maxell and ordinary discs. I'll take a look later. In any case, I find it disheartening that not only is MD so fragile, but also that fixes and replacements are difficult and expensive. I feel like this is beginning of some kind of end for MD for me. This after 17 or 18 years with the format. Thanks again. Bruce

Any clue as to how I might even begin to go about addressing this issue...JPN MDS-JA22ES, which was working fine, now displays C13 read error and will not read any discs, except for a Maxell Cleaning/Test MD...it reads that fine. I am using a 120v > 100v stepdown that definitely works. I have never had any success fixing a C13, but thought I'd ask just in case. Really a bummer. I now see from a prior thread from 2008 (that I started, regarding an MDS-JB940), that it -could- be the battery. Still, though, don't know why the Maxell Cleaning disc would be read OK but nothing else will. Prepared for the worst.

OK, I guess I wasn't clear...so I will be more concise: what I am asking is whether there is a difference in recording LP2/4 at normal or high speed. High-speed and normal speed SP are definitely done with different ATRACs.

it's known that Sony CD/MD decks (at least the MXD-D400) use a lesser ATRAC when copying CD >MD internally at high speed. At normal speed, SP Type R is used for copying, while at high speed, it is believed that 4.5 is used. I am wondering is something similar is in effect when copying in LP2 or LP4. I spent quite a few hours the other day making a couple of LP4 MDs at normal speed, but I don't know if the internal copying for LP at high differs from the normal speed and whether I would have been just as well off using high speed. Anyone know?

Just wanted to mention that, whatever else is going on, in all SS, SP = LP2—so when you say, "both are the same," that is doubly true. Of course, you may be aware of that already! Good luck! (BTW, the 3v adapter that puts out 4.9v...is that unusual?)

That's a reasonable idea, but what you might want to do is first hook up the 640 d.out to the 930 d.in. Play the same MD and switch between the 640 native and the 640/930. Listen carefully. If the 640/930 sounds better, then at least you have that information known. If I had to guess, I would guess that where the 640/940/930 ALL have the same ATRAC chip, you could also compare recordings made on the 640 and 930 and see if there's any diffs. This applies to digital recording only, as when you're going analog > MD, things could be different among the three units. Having never had a 640, I can only suppose that one of the diffs between the 640 and 940 is that the 940 may sound better on playback via analog out. Maybe sfbp has further information about the internals of the 640 and 940 that would matter.

I have both. Simply put, the 930 sounds better to me. They are in the same system, so it's apples to apples. When playing LP on the 940, I usually output via optical, using the 930's DAC. Happy happy. Just would like to note, though, that while the 930 is very good, I'd still like to replace it with a JA20ES or similar. Both the 930 and 940 are Type R and make nice recordings. Also want to mention that I (and others report same) have made some really nice-sounding LP2 recordings from analog sources such as cassette and LP.

I hope the surgeries went well and I (we) await your MD/WIN results. I know that quite a few folks have been able to get SS going on 10. Luck! Bruce

At least one person thinks this works: https://mega.nz/#!CYVwDZJD!cfo8qO2vTK7TMhlny5OBM9PctUYTluIBuA4X5FQT-fo He said: "SonicStage 4.3 US Windows 10 Unsigned found this on the web, it works fine for me with win 10 it comes with install instruction and drivers" Please be aware I have not vetted this in any way—it's just an opinion. YMMV. If your MD device isn't showing up, the fault may or may not be with SS. I mention this because even a Mac will at least recognize an MD device, including one like your N505. It won't do anything with it, but it's on the bus. Don't give up. keep poking around and success will come.

That would be a real game-changer for me. The issue as I see it is whether MacOS would be able to run the PClk's software. If it is just a matter of sending a bitstream to the device (which we hope would be recognized by the Mac) and then having the PClk do the real lifting...why yes, sign me up. Maybe I will poke around a but to see if it's possible.

Mac/iTunes > opt.> MD generally results in no track marks. IDK yet about Win/SS or Win/iTunes > coax > MD as far as track marks go. You'll likely get the same results in SQ using PC/Mac > opt/coax > MD. So you can use either platform via optical. It's often said that some audio s/w -will- create track marks, but not sure which and as I mentioned, don't know about SS in that regard just yet, but I will be checking it out soon. Mainly I record from CD > MD as you do, via optical. However, I have much use of SS even at the reduced bit rate: temporary music MDs and also audiobooks. I am SP/LP all the way and have no Hi-MD. HTH in some way.

Not sure why you reposted my question from 23 OCT 2014 here (http://forums.sonyinsider.com/topic/28901-advanced-pulse-dac/), but since you did: The short story: Advanced Pulse DAC is possibly a multibit (hybrid) DAC (as opposed to a 1-bit DAC). I had the XA1ES and was also curious. It is generally thought that 1-bit DACs are a better way to go in MD/CD. Freddy, I believe you are correct that it is not only sales/marketing lingo, but Sony-specific at that. Sony calls its 1-bit DACs "current pulse" and most of its multibits "hybrid pulse." Of course, Sony's terminology is its own, so who really knows? Only Sony knows if "advanced pulse" = "hybrid pulse." I did find this, regarding the 8505Q as deployed in the JA3ES: The JA3ES deck uses Sony's new CXD-8505Q D/A converter chip, which was developed for their latest generation CD players. This chip accepts a 20-bit digital data stream, which is converted by CXC-8505Q's first stage into an equivalent 22-bit signal, before passing it to the second stage which converts it into a stream of one-bit PWM pulses. Now let's take a look at the 8505* series DACs and some of the places they are found. As you note—actually, as I noted—the 8505Q is found in the CDP-XA1ES. Its next iteration, the 8505AQ, is found in the CXD-XA70/80ES. I believe that is a 1-bit DAC. Finally the 8505BQ is in the CDP-XA20ES...definitely 1-bit or in Sonyspeak, "current pulse." Both the JB930 and the XA20ES use the CXD-8735N-TP DAC, as noted in their respective service manuals. Bottom line: 8505BQ > 8505AQ > 8505Q. The CXD-8735N-TP is 1-bit. CXD8735N-TP