Am I The Only One Worried About Outsourcing To China?

[aeriyn]

Head-Fi didn't appreciate some responses to a thread about Shure, Inc. opening up a manufacturing plant in China.

Hopefully you folks will let me get a bit of this anger out of my system.

How I see it: China (the PRC to avoid confusion) is not our friends. We are not allies. In fact, we were once actual military enemies. I believe that outsourcing all our manufacturing, not just to China but primarily to China, is wrong and is hurting our economy while inflating the economy of a country that does not have our best intentions in mind.

Am I a bigot for seeing things this way?

[sony_man]

no, i am wondering what would it be like if our economy was like china's?

[aeriyn]

I might be able to get a job that doesn't involve flipping burgers if it was.

[Syrius]

I recall hearing that the japanese, some time ago, would purchase a japanese product over a foreign one of the same type, even if the japanese-made one was more expensive.

Call me stupid, but that's the reason I have stuck with my simple Geforce FX 5500 board, by BFG. According to them the thing is made here in the good old US of A. I could have gotten a cheaper board made in Taiwan or Hong Kong, but you know, the package and the board just smelled of quality all over.

Not that we have lots of options, anyway.

[sony_man]

dont they have really really low paying jobs? like i have never been there or heard much about it, but people say that people over there are so desperate for jobs they haggle the amount of pay per hours to like 50cents to a few bucks.

[aeriyn]

I don't mind buying Japanese products or even Taiwanese products, or Malaysian products, because those countries are our allies. The PRC is not our allies. I'm not saying that Chinese people are evil; they're not. Their government isn't exactly pure as the driven snow, however.

[me]

no wonder my chinese friends gave me an hour long rant about how much america sucks.

In other news, NZ is pushing for a free trade agreement with China. NZ has the lowest unemployment rate in the world. 3.6%.

[Michael1980]

Maybe outsourcing will bring China closer to the democratic side of the world.

[Christopher]

no wonder my chinese friends gave me an hour long rant about how much america sucks.

In other news, NZ is pushing for a free trade agreement with China. NZ has the lowest unemployment rate in the world. 3.6%.

←

No wonder certain Americans are disgruntled at the fact that people outside of the country assume that one person speaks for them all.

[Bananatree]

I think it is disheartening that capitalism has gotten this far.

That an economy would pretty much shaft it's own people to try and inflate it's self. It is also very sad that this "Buy and Trash" disposable mind-set we've got going on has gotten a lot of people wanting the cheapest possible price, rather than something that will last them a little bit.

[streaml1ne]

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/lou.dobbs.tonight/

Tip of the iceberg. Look for Exporting America on the right hand side of that webpage. There's a list of companies that export jobs overseas to save a buck. A big big list...

[me]

No wonder certain Americans are disgruntled at the fact that people outside of the country assume that one person speaks for them all.

←

That's because they have the loudest voice. I questioned my friend on that and apparently it's only the government.

These chinese are mainlanders. It was actually pretty scary because all of them felt the same way. Hate taiwan, hate america. I felt quite disturbed.

[Syrius]

Just as someone mentioned above, it's not really nice for the people getting those outsourced jobs either. When I was working in Nogales, Mexico, just seven blocks south of the border, I was getting paid (get this) twelve ****ing dollars a week for editing, proofreading and fixing resumes that people sent electronically. (sum of dem eluktroniks engniers dunt now haw 2 spll). Twelve bucks a week. Over here, that would pay at least seven bucks an hour. And that was back in 1996.

Oh, my post above about the Graphics card and the American made products was referring to the fact we have to support whichever few companies still manufacture their products here. Guess I was too sleepy when I posted that.

[aeriyn]

Maybe outsourcing will bring China closer to the democratic side of the world.

←

No, outsourcing to China makes it a bitch for me to find a damn job, that's what it does. All politics and diplomacy aside, I am an individual person who personally does not give a rat's ass about China or Iraq or Iran or what happens over there if I can't find a job or support myself. Period. Why? Because myself and my loved ones are the most important things to me, and it is to all of you folks too. If you say it's not, you're a liar because I very seriously doubt any of you would give your job up so some Chinese guy you don't even know can have a job.

Personally I believe that what happens in those countries is none of America's f-ing business.

I think it is total bullshit that the USA is more willing to give jobs to people in China than to their own citizens.

Helping other countries is all well and good, and a very noble goal for humanity but, BUT it's not our responsibility and it's not our right. America always sticks its nose in everyone else's business and tries to "help" when the country doesn't even want help.

[Michael1980]

It is cheaper for companies to outsource rather than make the products at home. All they think about is the profit. Rules of market.

What the goverments should do, is subsidise if they want to keep the home population having those jobs.

In England all the telemarketing has moved to India, and the employees there watch "Eastenders" to get the understanding of local accents

Edited February 15, 2005 by Michael1980

[aeriyn]

Outsourcing should be regulated a lot heavier than it is. Now, I don't mind company A creating a new product and then going to a Taiwanese OEM and saying "build our product" because well, no one lost a job from that!

But what pisses me off is when company B goes into its factory that has been churning out product for twenty or thirty years and saying "We're closing down the factory," then laying off every employee and reopening the factory... in China. Or Mexico. That is total total BS, totally betraying your employees, your country and yourself just to make a higher profit.

If you want to outsource the jobs, go right ahead, but do it like Japan does--outsource the people too! I wouldn't mind moving to another country if it meant that I'd have a good job at the other end.

[Syrius]

As you can see, it all sucks. I got screwed down there in Mexico, people get screwed over here.. and now poor Hindus are going to take the brunt of people's agression when they try to telemarket stuff.

[Fat Tires]

To whom much is given, much will be expected. EVERY rich country has the responsibility to help our less fortunate brothers and sisters in the world. You can be as selfish and xenophonic as you want to be, but talk to me about these beliefs when you sell off all your non-US made stuff and get only US made products.

On a different note, you work in food service, your job didn't get outsourced, it just went away due to a free market. Stop looking for a scapegoat, get trained in a field that's in need of workers and you'll be fine. The US is experiencing an extreme shortage of nurses for instance.

[aeriyn]

I was talking about my other job, the one I had before I was forced to work at a restaurant with all the other computer nerds who lost their jobs to outsourcing and stupid businesses.

And as for how I feel about our helping other countries--charity starts at home. The US has far too many problems here to be worrying about the rest of the world. They need to take care of their own kids before feeding the neighborhood.

[me]

what if the company would go out of business if it didn't outsource jobs?

[Fat Tires]

I guess the free markey economy is bad.

[Bananatree]

I guess the free markey economy is bad. 

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That's what I've been saying for years!

You may laugh at me for being a commie, but think about how a highly structured socialist economy would just rock.

Canada and Sweden are doing pretty good, even if we don't arms out the wazoo.

[aeriyn]

I guess the free markey economy is bad. 

←

No, you have to strike a balance. Reciprocity. One of yours for one of mine. The current sell, sell, sell attitude in the US is destructive, not constructive. Selling our businesses to foreigners, outsourcing and dissolving manufacturing in the US is not the way to go.

When you manufacture something, you're literally creating wealth. You are taking raw materials that are worth a certain amount and multiplying that amount by many times. The US has nowhere near the manufacturing capabilities it had in the 1950s. As of now, we cannot make everything we use.

Even beyond that, it comes down to another issue: we overconsume. Zombie is right; we love disposable throwaway use once products. We need to learn conservation. We need to look at Japan and Germany. Conservation is not making do with less, it's doing what we do now with less energy, with less materials, with less cost. Conservation is efficiency.

The real problem in the US is that the government is so hostile to our businesses when it comes to competing in the world market. Trade is not free even though we continually fool ourselves into believing it is. The Japanese have a saying--"Business is war." And that's exactly how they see it. We're in a no-holds-barred economic war with China, Japan and every other country that trades on the world market. We need to start acting like it.

They're not our friends. They are our competitors. We should not forget that.

[Fat Tires]

On that last note, don't our allies compete with us economically? I swear I saw my companys local field engineer with an Aprilla (Italian) motorcycle on his driveway. I guess he should've bought a Buell. As a nation we're opening our relations with China and Vietnam these days. They will be allies eventually, whether you and I like it or not.

As for your other points regarding conservation and the evils of a disposable society, I couldn't agree more.

[dex Otaku]

I have avoided replying to this until now, and am doing so -before- reading what the rest of the posters have to say.

Head-Fi didn't appreciate some responses to a thread about Shure, Inc. opening up a manufacturing plant in China.

Hopefully you folks will let me get a bit of this anger out of my system.

How I see it: China (the PRC to avoid confusion) is not our friends. We are not allies. In fact, we were once actual military enemies. I believe that outsourcing all our manufacturing, not just to China but primarily to China, is wrong and is hurting our economy while inflating the economy of a country that does not have our best intentions in mind.

Am I a bigot for seeing things this way?

←

Yes, this makes you a bigot of sorts. Note that I didn't say "I think this makes you.."

China are not the enemies of the US. Or, to clarify that, the people of China [the ones who primarily benefit from the jobs created there] are not enemies of the US.

The truth has many faces.

* manufacturing within the US costs a lot more money

* manufacturing done in the US does not imply higher quality. It just appeals to bigots who like to think that "made in America" means something other than "it costs more and people here have jobs." I, personally, don't really care where something is made - I check the build quality myself if possible, and base a decision on that. US products are usually at the bottom of my list, mainly because I seek to not support the US economy.

* products made elsewhere usually end up being less expensive to American consumers who have the money to buy them [most people in China don't have the money, and it's not because they're Maoist or socialist or communist - it's because they're poor]

* the reality of a global economy means spreading all services everywhere. If you maintain only certain sectors in certain areas, such as having people in China make your $150 shoes, it encourages regional economic monocultures.

In addition, for those of you who are still stupid enough to think that communism is the root of all evil:

* moving manufacturing to China means these people learn new high-tech skills, which means they become more educated

* as they become more educated, they'll realise what they're missing living in the restrictive [not evil] society they're living in

* people who realise what they're missing want more [bush would fit the word "freedom" here about 650-bazillion times]

* people who want more eventually get fed up with repression and rise in revolution

So, really, my opinion on things is that, if anything, moving manufacturing to China is a good thing for the entire world. Yes, there's a huge trade imbalance between China and the rest of the world [they export lots and import little, borrow lots of money and lend little], but overall the benefit for the whole planet is that the Chinese people, by becoming more educated, will eventually rise against their own repressive government and CHANGE things.

I find Aeriyn's attitude to be very typical of Americans, who basically think that the US is the lord of the planet and that everyone else should just comply with their wishes. Such is not the case. If anything, the US has become the bane of this entire planet, specifically because of people with attitudes like this one.

Americans tend to think that everyone else on earth loves them. Between their own stunningly complete ignorance and the influence of their propagandist media [which waves the flags of free speech, truth, and justice, &c. but in reality rivals the old Soviet system for the shiny happy lies it perpetuates] the American people tend to be completely [blissfully] unaware of the fact that a fair majority of the rest of the world in fact despises them [and, especially, their administration].

What it comes down to, Aeriyn, is that your attitude is both provincial and nationalistic, and while I'm definitely not an expert on politics, your ignorance is emblazoned on your sleeve for all to see.

Thing is, I don't hate you for it. I'm harshly critical of you for it, but I don't hate you for it.

If you're really interested in raising the standard of living in the US [which is why most people in any region fear the export of manufacturing and such, because of lost jobs], you might consider some of the following:

* not treating your poor like they live far away in some "3rd world" country rather than on your streets, and

* taking care of your populace rather than ignoring them if they don't have the cash to line your pockets

* harshly regulating privatised health care [basic health care at the least should *never* be a "for profit" industry as it is in the US, keeping essential services out of the reach of millions]

* eliminating religious fundamentalism and zealotry from your government [which pleads "separation of church and state" and then turns around and does things like telling women they can't do what they wish with their bodies based on religious "ideals" that neither reflect these nor any times]

* demilitarising [not completely of course] your society / putting down your guns

* ceasing your incessant attempts to run the rest of the world as if it was yours

* throwing your government out of power

Just a few suggestions.

You said that China are [basically] enemies of the US. Try on a different prespective:

The US is the enemy of the planet and all its people. Including Americans.

[dex Otaku]

I remember my musician friends talking about the fact that a certain company's guitars could be bought in either "US made" or "Mexican made" versions. The Mexican ones were much less expensive, and were made with [some] inferiour parts.

Imagine their surprise when I pointed out to them that the company those mexicans are working for chooses to have things this way. That they, rather than sending the same parts their US factories use, send the Mexican factories cheap crap to work with. Is this Mexico's fault? No. Is this the fault of the Mexican people? No. Is this the fault of the skilled Mexican workers assembling those guitars? No.

Is it the fault of the American company they're working for? Sort of, yes. They choose to send them cheap crap, so their work ends up being seen as cheap crap, when in reality they might be more skilled than their US counterparts.

The real fault lies somewhere between the econimic system that detemines that a majority of people won't be able to afford a product made by someone in the US [or whichever country], and offers the option of buying the cheap crap version made in what the US considers, for all intents and purposes, a lesser country of lesser people.

By extension, include with the US there every so-called "1st-world" country, including mine, Canada.

I might be able to get a job that doesn't involve flipping burgers if it was.

←

China [nor any other nation] are not responsible for your burger-flipping society.

Your society is.

If you want to change that, stop supporting the 2% of your populace that have most of the money, and start supporting everyone else.

Which is next to impossible to do, of course. That 2% control almost everything. Between your government [who are basically fascists] and your corporations [who, for the most part, are outright fascists] they control basically everything in your country, and much of the rest of the world as well.

So, rather than rolling over every time you see a McD's advertisement and buying a Big Mac, support your local businesses.

Rather than taking in advertising, turn off your f*ing television and educate yourselves.

People go to McD's [as an example] because they're practically trained from birth to do so.

Untrain yourselves.

Think globally, act locally. [As opposed to the usual American Way of thinking locally and trying to act globally]

Tip of the iceberg. Look for Exporting America on the right hand side of that webpage. There's a list of companies that export jobs overseas to save a buck. A big big list..

Yep. And can you give me, or anyone for that matter, a good reason why the jobs being created in those countries, why the people those jobs will permit to afford to put a roof over their heads and food in their children's mouths, don't deserve those jobs?

There's a huge paradox here: people want the products they buy to be inexpensive. They also want those products to be made by themselves and their neighbours, at a fair rate of pay that reflects regional costs of living. The two are pretty much mutually exclusive, though.

The result is that manufacturing gets shipped elsewhere so you can enjoy your low prices. The same prices at which the people manufacturing the products themselves will often never be able to afford to purchase, because your desire for low prices puts the factory in their backyard where your corporation can pay $0.25/hr to people who are simply happy to be able to have work and afford to live in dirt-floor shacks while their family eats a diet consisting mainly of rice. This while they're probably thinking of you middle-class Americans who can afford afford to drive their $20,000+ car [filled with petrol they could never afford and with insurance on it that they can't even conceive of] to a franchised restaurant's drive-through window to buy a meal made of cattle raised on raped land for their family - a meal that costs as much as they make in a month. [i know the pronouns got screwed up there, but I'm actually laughing after reading it. What great run-ons.]

No, outsourcing to China makes it a bitch for me to find a damn job, that's what it does. All politics and diplomacy aside, I am an individual person who personally does not give a rat's ass about China or Iraq or Iran or what happens over there if I can't find a job or support myself. Period. Why? Because myself and my loved ones are the most important things to me, and it is to all of you folks too. If you say it's not, you're a liar because I very seriously doubt any of you would give your job up so some Chinese guy you don't even know can have a job.

Thank you for proving my points so gracefully.

Concessions are a requirement of living in the world we live in. In a later reply you actually say something about how a global free-market economy is about reciprocity, which it is. The rest of what you're saying doesn't match this, though. What you're talking about is the typical American attitude of "let's keep it all for ourselves - screw those dirty poor people in country X."

The real question here: would you really even accept that job, working on a crappy assembly line somewhere?

But what pisses me off is when company B goes into its factory that has been churning out product for twenty or thirty years and saying "We're closing down the factory," then laying off every employee and reopening the factory... in China. Or Mexico. That is total total BS, totally betraying your employees, your country and yourself just to make a higher profit.

While I don't condone this kind of action, it's important to keep in mind the fact that the company producing those products you so desperately "need" [such as 65 different and completely redundant brands of toothpaste and tampons, let alone electronics] have to face the fact that doing things inside the US border means having to pay US-scale wages, and to follow US inflation rates. That's not to mention work safety regulations, building codes, property taxes, and all the things that make running a big business so expensive. Mind you, the really big businesses are usually buddy-buddy with people in government, have lobbyists shouting specious arguments in favour of their not paying taxes, and end up getting away with economic murder because their country needs them and what they make so desperately.

The corporations exist on the backs of their workers, raking in billions while often [if not usually] contributing next to nothing to the system that supports them.

Point one: if the US would quit screwing over and screwing with the rest of the world, your inflation wouldn't be so bad.

Point two: when they raise the prices on their products because their workers all expect raises that follow the local cost of living, you and your family and your friends start whinging and threaten to stop buying their products. Often enough, they move offshore just so they can stay in business, so you will still buy their products.

You can't have it both ways, but you really love having those cheap prices. At least, you love having them as long as you don't have to hear about factories in Arkansas being closed, or the plight of workers in whatever country the factory got exported to in order to exploit them.

If you really want to stop the cycle, it's pretty simple: STOP BUYING THEIR PRODUCTS AND LET THEM GO UNDER.

There are no simple answers to any of this. On one hand, we all want ourselves and our neighbours to be able to live comfortably. On the other hand, we want inexpensive products [which are, for the most part, completely unnecessary crap]. On another hand, when we really think about it, it's totally unacceptable to take advantage of anyone and exploit them simply because they're less rich than we are. Or at least, I like to think that most of us would think so. I don't think anyone in the US administration or working in the higher levels of the majority of US corporations does.

On one hand I'm totally stunned by this thread. On the other hand, considering that the majority of users here are American, I'm not surprised in the least by the clear demonstration of total ignorance, nationalism, and lack of concern for the rest of the world exemplified by the majority of the replies to Aeriyn's original post.

I'll point out in postscript, though, for those of you who have had the attention span to read this far: I am just as guilty of perpetuating most of what is bad about the system I'm talking about as the majority of others here are. I shop at a "box store", buy the cheapest products possible, &c.

While I am playing devil's advocate in a huge way, don't think for a second that I'm saying I'm innocent.

In fact, it's just the opposite. Whereas most people are not innocent but choose to be ignorant, I am slightly more informed. I am aware of some of [but by no means all of] the damage I am both causing and perpetuating, whereas the majority of people choose to not know anything about it while likewise complaining about it as if the whole deal weren't their problem in the first place.

The thing is - it is their problem. It is our problem.

Yeah, yeah. Spot the hippy.

Let the broiling begin.

[Fat Tires]

...but I need a McChicken sandwich...

[Bananatree]

While I'm not 100% learned in the ways of global politics, I think Dex and Aeriyn are saying mostly the same things but in different words.

Personally, living in Alberta I have a Canadian ideal system with a rather Americanized slant on things. I'm somehow seeing how Aeriyn is upset with what capitalism has done to her job, but I also understand and 100% agree with what Dex is saying. (I'm not choosing sides here, be sure of that)

The thing is, to stop all this capitalist balderdash, buy your chicken from a local market, skip safeway and visit your local hutterites. Till some of that grass in your back yeard and grow some natural food for you and your family. Not any of this "Garden"(registered trademark) food, but something you grew without anything you cannot pronounce sprayed on top. Buy used clothes, or from home grown manufacturers.

Personally, I don't think this makes you a bigot, I'm not sure what it really makes you, but stop feeding a global monster that is running around gorging on the resources (both human and natural) of every country in the world.

[aeriyn]

... I guess what all of us American kids were taught in school is wrong then. I only know what I am taught and what I've managed to find out on my own, and this thread and the other thread on the other board just proves to me even further that the American education system is stupid and full of misinformation.

What am I supposed to believe if America is telling me nothing but lies? How do I know what is true and what isn't? Should I even bother trying to find out?

Perhaps your media and your educational system tells the truth, dex. I don't know, I didn't go to school in Canada. Am I supposed to accuse my teachers of lying when they taught us this stuff? I'm totally lost. The news isn't much better, is it? They're all lying, aren't they?

What am I supposed to believe, or should I even bother trying to find out?

Edit: Er, after reading this, I noticed that I may come across as being sarcastic and nasty. Actually, I'm completely serious... and really embarrassed, and annoyed, and upset that I am well... wrong. So I'm serious, not mocking at all.

[aeriyn]

Perhaps most importantly... why else would I assume the People's Republic of China was an enemy of the United States unless that's what I was taught?

[dex Otaku]

... I guess what all of us American kids were taught in school is wrong then. I only know what I am taught and what I've managed to find out on my own, and this thread and the other thread on the other board just proves to me even further that the American education system is stupid and full of misinformation.

What am I supposed to believe if America is telling me nothing but lies? How do I know what is true and what isn't? Should I even bother trying to find out?

Perhaps your media and your educational system tells the truth, dex. I don't know, I didn't go to school in Canada. Am I supposed to accuse my teachers of lying when they taught us this stuff? I'm totally lost. The news isn't much better, is it? They're all lying, aren't they?

The education system here is almost the same as in the US. The main difference here is that students learn more world history, whereas in the US students learn mostly US history to the exclusion of anything about anywvhere else. [Yes, I'm exaggerating, but history and geography are things that Americans are, generally, much weaker in than the people of almost all other "1st-world" countries.]

As for the media in Canada - 90% of our television comes directly from the US. Our own media are not much better than their US counterparts, but likewise they tend to be less alarmist, more truthful, more balanced in perspective, less controlled by and far more critical of their own government [especially our public broadcaster, the CBC], &c. &c. American news tends to look like you're watching a bad movie most of the time. Canadian, as with most British, news looks more like you're watching, well, news.

The experience of living only 60 miles from the border of the world's most powerful [and most deluded] nation has a huge influence on one's worldview. As with pretty much everyone in Canada, I grew up watching 90% American TV, reading 75% American magazines, watching pretty much 100% American films, &c. It's hard not to be influenced by something so pervasive, but at the same time, we Canadians do have our national pride as well. We're just a lot less gun-toting, flag worshipping, neighbour-murdering, litigating, &c. than Americans.

Many Canadians basically resent almost everything about the US. Most Americans would put it down to jealousy, but I think the truth is that, as with the educated people of basically the whole world outside the US, we look at you and think, "What a waste."

What am I supposed to believe, or should I even bother trying to find out?

I honestly don't know. I do know that much of my worldview comes from being Canadian and having grown up in a culture that is totally screwed up in totally different ways from most of the US [as well as in the same ways]. I went to French immersion as a child, for instance, and learned a completely different version of Canadian history than everyone else who attended English schools. [Later on the curricula were updated everywhere.. what I learned in grade 7 history was being taught to grade 11 when I was high school, from the same book only in English.]

Edit: Er, after reading this, I noticed that I may come across as being sarcastic and nasty. Actually, I'm completely serious... and really embarrassed, and annoyed, and upset that I am well... wrong. So I'm serious, not mocking at all.

Now you make me feel bad! There I was being all scathing and angry about something I usually avoid talking about [because I always end up scathing and angry] and respond with.. well.. you respond with hope, really.

The first thing I'd suggest is to forget about worshipping your bloody flag.

The second thing would be to seek out the perspective that you don't get to experience yourself or hear about in the US media - i.e. the news from the other sides. US media outlets are, IMO, among the least trustworthy sources of information [on certain topics] on the planet. If you want to know about stock prices, sure. If you want to know about local news, of course. But if you want world events, politics, global economics, even coverage of your country's own crusade of oppression and deception, er, I mean fight for freedom in Iraq - I'd look to any media outlet other than those in the US.

Foreign media are a wealth of information that you will never see on the local news, CNN, Foxnews, or anywhere else on US television. Things like last year when at the World Cup Soccer tourney people of every colour booed the US team [in the thousands], burned US flags in the streets, and cheered for Germany for the first time in something like 50 years.

Personal irony:

I attending broadcast school [for TV] years ago. There I was, studying TV journalism and production. And that was when I stopped watching so much TV.

In the past few years I've reduced my TV watching to almost zero. I no longer read newspapers with any regularity, I no longer listen to the radio unless someone else has one on within earshot.. I basically live in a "common" media blackout.

I do read internet news a few times a week. Indymedia, CBC.ca, BBC, ABC [Australia], NHK [Japan], and others. Not with much regularity, but enough for my tastes.

The funny part about this is that, while I'm largely ignorant [completely by choice] of current events a lot of the time, I still find myself to be better-informed than most of the people I'd run into on the street.

The people who watch the news, read the papers, and listen to the radio.

I just don't know how that works.

Lastly - remember that this is the perspective of just one man, and take it as such.

[aeriyn]

I don't even own a TV... Kinda hard to watch TV with headphones clamped around your ears!

[Christopher]

If the United States had a billion or so people barely above the poverty line I'm sure we'd be absorbing every other country in this sense as well.

[dex Otaku]

If the United States had a billion or so people barely above the poverty line I'm sure we'd be absorbing every other country in this sense as well.

←

Right. Instead, the US has around a known 10% of its population well below the poverty line, and imposes itself on every other country.

[Christopher]

Isn't it great how the world works? Yay for democracy led by a complete moron.

[dex Otaku]

Gore Vidal on Bush's Inaugural Address: "The Most Un-American Speech I've Ever Heard"

I disagree with the title, though. And Vidal might agree with this - that perhaps it should have been "The Most American Speech I've Ever Heard".

[Syrius]

Upon reading that article, I'm sad and speechless. I'm just a foreigner, but I got the feeling that attitude doesn't fit any nation's leader. We all would have a hard time keeping a straight face and supporting say, France or the Netherlands if they suddenly started spreading their vision of freedom. Le humanite, Mon Dieu. Le humanite

[Christopher]

Absurd. Do you really feel that Bush represents us all?

I voted for Kerry.

p.s. Let's not turn this into an anti-Bush thread. Back on topic, please.

[Syrius]

Absurd. Do you really feel that Bush represents us all?

I voted for Kerry.

Of course not. It's just that there are certain things he shouldn't have said.

p.s. Let's not turn this into an anti-Bush thread. Back on topic, please.

←

Agreed.

[atrain]

i think that assuming the us's stated free market goals are bad for american business is a joke to anyone on the other end of a us free trade agreement.

ever seen a phamceutical companies profits? here in australia we have a protected & subsidised medical system like canada's. one of the major goals of us side of the fta is to dismantle it, something even the very pro-us govt is affraid to do.

i'm sorry aeriyn about your sitch but that's the way us style me, me, me economics works - chase the dollar for profit & maybe social responsibilities will take care of themselves.