Auto Track Marks In Hi-md

[javertim]

My friend recorded a fairly quiet event with his new Hi-MD recorder and set the auto-track feature at every 5 minutes. What I am confused about is that he was recording via line-in and still only got tracks every 5 minutes rather than when the signal dropped too low (if that makes any sense). Is this common of Hi-MD (an improvement on older models)? I remember when I used my old Sony-N707 with line-in, I got a new track after 3 seconds of what the recorder deemed as "silence."

I have considered purchasing a Hi-MD recorder, but was thinking of holding out until Sharp comes out with their own version. However, it seems this isn't going to happen, so I think I wll save up for a Sony unit. I just wanted to ask this question first, as I am a frequent line-in recorder. I just don't understand how this is possible,

Thanks! :-)

[ROMBUSTERS]

maybe the recorder shuts off the trackmark ever 2seconds of silence feature if there is a user predefined timeline for trackmarks

[Guest tony wong]

look in ur manual for the page for "difference digital(optical) and analog(line) inputs"

u will find what u need

[dex Otaku]

Auto trackmarking overrides the default "mark when silent" mode, apparently.

[MZ-NH1]

I completley forgot about this feature, and it sure would have come in handy when I recored a 4 hr concert on the weekend!

Will be using it from now on

[ozpeter]

Here with a NH900, if you record line in with auto track marking on set to either 5 mins or 60 mins, you still get track marks added after the end of a few seconds of silence, in addition to ones which would no doubt be added after x minutes of non-silence by the auto track mark function. In other words, you can't effectively "turn off" marking of the end of silence by setting auto track mark to say 60 mins. Pity.

[dex Otaku]

Here with a NH900, if you record line in with auto track marking on set to either 5 mins or 60 mins, you still get track marks added after the end of a few seconds of silence, in addition to ones which would no doubt be added after x minutes of non-silence by the auto track mark function.  In other words, you can't effectively "turn off" marking of the end of silence by setting auto track mark to say 60 mins.  Pity.

←

This isn't the first time we've had conflicting reports on this.

In any case, it's strange [at best] that some should experience one behaviour and others something different.

I'll try this out and see what it does on my NH700.

[ozpeter]

I ran my test right now, btw, rather than relying on memory/assumption - which doesn't of course preclude the possibility of differences between machine versions - we may end up having to compare serial numbers! I used an FM radio headphone output as a line source, simply turning the volume to zero and up again after 5 secs to provide the silence trigger.

I guess we should at least be grateful that it doesn't take upon itself to delete the silence....

[Labman]

You may have already worked this out but if you use the Mic input the auto track mark does not seem to function. Which is critical, as I use an MZ-NH1 for scientific recordings were track marks all over the place would not be tolerable.

[Guest tony wong]

You may have already worked this out but if you use the Mic input the auto track mark does not seem to function. Which is critical, as I use an MZ-NH1 for scientific recordings were track marks all over the place would not be tolerable.

←

try to ask Sony, there should have been something missing from the manual

guess : Sens Low, Sens High, these settings will affect "mark when 2 sec silence" function

[MZ-NH1]

Ok, I have a MZ-NH1, and am trying to get the auto track thing to work as well. What I want, is that when there MD hears say 2-5 secs of no music, it then starts a new group, so that for a 3 hr concert, with breaks you don’t just get a 3 hr long file.

So I go into REC Settings, then Time Mark, and when you turn it on, you have the option to create a Time Stamp for 1-60 mins... But I don't want a new file created every so minutes, because then it could interrupt the piece being played... etc... Is there a thing where you can say, 2 secs of silence, make a new track?

[ozpeter]

What I think most of us want is a way to stop it doing that.

If it doesn't happen for you, then the silence isn't silent enough. In a classical concert using manual recording levels, it should happen pretty often - I came home from a concert yesterday with 64 tracks. Damn nuisance. At any other genre, or if using ALC which will try to turn up quiet bits, you might not be so lucky/unlucky.

[MZ-NH1]

I'll have to read the instruction manual again, to see if that has what I am looking for...

I am wanting the MD to create new tracks when it hears silences....

Hopefully it creates the new tracks though when the silences are for new pieces, not soft playing

[MZ-NH1]

Ok, I have just read the Manual for the MZ-NH1, and when Time Stamping is enabled, than a time stamp will be created at the designated time interval.

In the manual of the MZ-NH1, not at any point does it say that if there is silence, a new track will be created.

So when time stamp is on, it will add a time stamp at the time you have specified from 1-60 minutes. And in no instance will it create a new track if there is silence.

Damn!

Looks like it will be 1 long 3 hr file for me to listen to!

[emmrecs]

Ok, I have just read the Manual for the MZ-NH1, and when Time Stamping is enabled, than a time stamp will be created at the designated time interval.

In the manual of the MZ-NH1, not at any point does it say that if there is silence, a new track will be created.

So when time stamp is on, it will add a time stamp at the time you have specified from 1-60 minutes.  And in no instance will it create a new track if there is silence.

Damn!

Looks like it will be 1 long 3 hr file for me to listen to!  

←

I have an NH1 which I regularly use to record line-in (analogue). Whenever there is a "silence" of about 3 seconds a new track mark is created automatically. I don't have the recorder set to create a mark at a predetermined time interval.

Hope this helps!

[ozpeter]

It's very simple to test this behaviour. Just connect the MD line in to the line out of a CD player, play a CD for 20 secs, pause the CD for ten secs, unpause it, and I'd be amazed if it didn't start a new MD track regardless of any setting.

[samplehunter]

look in ur manual for the page for "difference digital(optical) and analog(line) inputs"

u will find what u need

←

I thought via digital in, trackmaks are only set if there is a track change at the source. But as i recorded from a harddisk recorder (studio equipment) i noticed that there are trackmarks at the silent parts too.

So if i set this auto timemark to the highest value, will this turn off the silence detection? would be great.

And what's about recording from CD with silent parts via spdif. Will there be additional trackmarks at the silent parts too? (never tried)

[MZ-NH1]

I have an NH1 which I regularly use to record line-in (analogue).  Whenever there is a "silence" of about 3 seconds a new track mark is created automatically.  I don't have the recorder set to create a mark at a predetermined time interval.

Hope this helps!

←

This is strange :|

That doesn't happen for me.

Shoudl I maybe turn off Group Rec...??

I will try and fiddle around with it a bit. But the manual doesn't say anything about if there is silence, then a new track will be created

[ozpeter]

This is strange :|

That doesn't happen for me.

Shoudl I maybe turn off Group Rec...??

I will try and fiddle around with it a bit.  But the manual doesn't say anything about if there is silence, then a new track will be created

←

It really does seem odd that people are getting different experiences with this. Using the test I suggest above (or similar - just something which is BOUND to trigger any auto track mark) it would be interesting if anyone could report settings which repeatably turn on or off auto track marking. I'll have a fiddle myself too. (There's gonna be a whole lot of fiddling in Australia going on!)

[ozpeter]

To answer my own question - I have just been through every combination and permutation of settings I can reasonably come up with - including things like holding down the track mark button when paused - and I cannot find a way of turning level-based auto track marking off for line in, nor for that matter on for mic in. I really can only conclude that those seeming not to get line-in auto track marking are simply not encountering adequate lowness of level in their input material. But I would be very happy to be proved wrong.

Good old Sony....

Of course, one workaround is to use low sensitivity mic in with the level turned down, instead of line in. Tomorrow I will try to establish what quality issues one might come up with in that scenario (stop me if that's tried and tested way back). One might expect higher noise levels from the mic preamp but an initial test using theshold of pain levels of FM hiss interspersed with silence, using the mic input with a line source, was very encouraging - I could hear no noise at all in the silent bits.

[ozpeter]

Results of more testing:-

I've been comparing recording from a CD via line in and mic in, to see whether recording via mic in is a viable workaround for avoiding auto track marks.

Not surprisingly, even when mic sensitivity is set to 'low' the mic preamp overloads in this scenario - I had the level set to 10/30. Noise level however was not a problem - it seems to be the same for line or mic input.

So, you need to lower the incoming line level when recording line into mic. From years back (maybe with the MZ-1?) I have a Sony lead with a resistor built into the miniplug designed for recording line into mic - I must find it - I wonder whether they are still available? Also, there must be a mic level setting below which you should not go, otherwise you are bound to be overloading the mic preamp. 10/30 is clearly a no-no. I'm guessing that somewhere around 15 upwards is ok - I need to test for that.

Also, off topic, I see that the NH900 meters under-read. If they ever illuminate the segment below the second dot, that's a definite overload. If they are regularly hitting the segment to the left of the second dot, you may well be getting clipping (overload). If they very occasionally do so, you might be ok. To be safe, given that the average noise floor is around -86dB, you should not allow the meters ever to light up the segment to the left of the second dot. (This comes from checking the levels of transferred files in Adobe Audition, both for wave and for Hi-SP recordings).

[MZ-NH1]

I have school exams all this week and the next 2 weeks, so I will test out my mic in, when I have soem spare time.

[g_montel]

I have experienced the "auto track mark" issue with my new MZ-RH10 as well. I can't switch off this "feature" which is quite annoying. Any hint ?

Thanks

geoffroy

[dex Otaku]

I have experienced the "auto track mark" issue with my new MZ-RH10 as well. I can't switch off this "feature" which is quite annoying. Any hint ?

Hint: read the thread you just posted in.

What it boils down to is that when recording using line-in there is no way to turn auto t.mark off.

[Top Cat]

The best workaround in my experience is to remove track marks right after stopping the recording.

The procedure:

1. Play the last "track" and put the unit into Pause

2. Then repeatedly alternately press two buttons: REW, REC.

Make the pace of about 1 mark-off in 1 second (half-second between button presses) - the unit doesn't like faster speeds.

That's better done with two fingers from two hands so that you dont hassle swapping one finger over two buttons.

3. Don't worry about mispresses.

If you accidentally skip some marks or add new ones you can correct them in another run (presumably containing much smaller number of track marks)

4. As you see, couple minutes of this hard labour can deliver very professional result from a crippled device.

5. You don't have to look at the display all the time, engage in your normal activity

You can even do it while JOGGING as mark removal doesn't make any writing on the MD immediately. Only stand still when you finally press Stop and the system file goes to get updated.

6. Use newer SonicStage for uploading your recording.

Version 3.3 works fine with removed track marks, 3.0 (which came with the unit) refuses to upload such material.

Enjoy your work!

[g_montel]

OK, thanks everyone. I was posting the question again because the thread was several months old and didn't target the RH10 especially.

[dex Otaku]

The best workaround in my experience is to remove track marks right after stopping the recording.

Keep in mind that recordings that are auto t.marked [made via line-in] will have tiny repeated sections [as long as 1/3rd sec] where many of the marks are.

[Top Cat]

Keep in mind that recordings that are auto t.marked [made via line-in] will have tiny repeated sections [as long as 1/3rd sec] where many of the marks are.

Only when you upload the tracks individually and then concatenate in computer.

The whole point of my workaround is to avoid those repeated sections by the easiest way possible.

(As a bonus, this method also makes upload much faster, like x5 faster in Hi-SP, as the MD drive does not seek for every single little track, but streams reading, thus eliminating the repeats BTW)

[greenmachine]

I have taken the risk of using this method which is known for sometimes (randomly?) to fail for a new year fireworks line-in recording, where i removed about 250 track marks on the unit. Upload worked without a flaw in SS 3.3. Got no repeated sections. I still don't know if this is reliable enough to use it for valuable recordings though. What if the recording has been stopped in etween and you remove these marks? Are they still uploadable?

[Top Cat]

For valuable recordings there is one full-proof method - real-time recording: the tracks might get unuploadable (like it was a norm with SS 3.0) but we have yet to hear of USB-unplayable recordings

And you know what? Sometimes real-time recording is faster than USB upload!

Once I had a recording of 4 hours containing over 800 track marks and upload took almost full DAY.

[dex Otaku]

As I pointed out in another thread yesterday, if you have control over the levels of what's going into the recorder [such as recording off a stereo bus or tape bus on most mixing boards] you can also try .. plugging into the mic input instead of the line input, and turning the output level of the playback device/mixer down until it reads OK on the recorder's meters. No more auto-t.marking.

This may introduce other noise into the signal [because of its low level] from some equipment, but for a loud live recording from a mixer this should work fine.

A second advantage to adjusting levels before they reach the recorder [also applicable if you use the line input] is that you can set levels to a reasonable average and leave decent headroom, and still have the recorder's AGC running to save any really loud parts [such as drunk/stoned people walking up to a mic onstage and shouting "LET'S PARTY!", and yes, I've had it happen - we [stage crew] thought he was with the band to begin with because he came on with them during a changeover, and well, it was an amusing few minutes of drunken shouted party slogans followed by the attempt by security to get him offstage and then the police's removing him from the festival site. heh.]

[emptyzero]

I am so frustrated, I always record Line-In with my MZ-NH1 so I always have to transfer tracks to my library and then combine the tracks into one, from there I load that .wav into CD Wave and track the songs out as they should be.

From the show last night I am looking at 186 tracks. They are uploaded to my library.

Edit > Select All

Edit > Combine

"Do you want to combine the selected 186 tracks?" of course I do...Start.

"Combining tracks"...then SS3.2 races to 100% and then gives me this error message:

"An error has occurred during the combine."

This happens all the time, sometimes I try it with the HiMD still connected to PC, sometimes not connected, sometimes I convert all the tracks to .wav, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I try to restart SS and do a varaition of the above, sometimes I restart my PC. I'm trying all of these things and sometimes for whatever reason the "Combine" finally works and I have the ONE .wav that I want to work with. Today I cannot get a combine to work.

I don't mean to beat a dead horse cause I'm sure this has been asking 101 times but what do you have to do to get a successful combine of multiple tracks after recording Line-In?

Edited February 18, 2006 by emptyzero

[Shozzer]

You could do a test line-in recording and combine the tracks on the MD rather than in Sonic Stage. The upload the single track to Sonic Stage and convert to WAV. I have had no problems with doing this and it may be worth a try (although the prospect of joining 186 tracks wouldn't exactly thrill...)

[dex Otaku]

I don't mean to beat a dead horse cause I'm sure this has been asking 101 times but what do you have to do to get a successful combine of multiple tracks after recording Line-In?

I've only had SS crash once while doing a combine with lots of tracks [200+, same situation as you really].

That was back in the days when uploads could only be done once; the crash took the combined file [to the point it had reached at least] -and- the originals with it.

Luckily I had already exported the uncombined WAVs.

What I've found works to get around SS locking up or appearing to lock up during combines is to only do a few tracks at a time, totally no more than maybe 10-15 mins of recording. Select as many as it takes to get that time, starting from the beginning of the "album" .. then combine .. do this for every 10-15 mins in your recording .. then go back and combine the remaining tracks 2 at a time, in order, giving you files 20-30 mins long .. then combine the remaining several files selecting the first two tracks in the album .. giving you a big combined track 1, and keep doing the same until you only have one track.

It may seem a ridiculous length to have to go to, I know. It did work for me, though.

Another possible solution? Export everything as WAV, drop the tracks on a playlist in foobar2000, make sure they're in the right order, select all, right-click, and select Convert->Run Conversion as Single File Output. Make sure you set the conversion format to WAV. It should seemlessly combine all of the tracks into one new large WAV file. [You could also do this to lossless-packed formats from fb2k as well.]

Good luck.

[emptyzero]

Another possible solution? Export everything as WAV, drop the tracks on a playlist in foobar2000, make sure they're in the right order, select all, right-click, and select Convert->Run Conversion as Single File Output. Make sure you set the conversion format to WAV. It should seemlessly combine all of the tracks into one new large WAV file. [You could also do this to lossless-packed formats from fb2k as well.]

This sounds pretty frickin genious actually as I love foobar2000. your 1st method sounds pretty cool too. Thanks again for your help.

I've heard Goldwave joins .wavs seemlessly?

[dex Otaku]

There are plenty of programs that can do it, actually. What it really comes down to [for me at least] is what interface you're comfortable with.

I can't help but mildly distrust SS's combine function - anything that is supposed to be 100% I/O and no DSP should not use enough CPU to lock up a computer.

[emptyzero]

Good point. I did go with your 1st method, got the 189 files down to 4, combined the first 2 and combined that file 2 more times. Seems seemless, haven't given it a super hard listen yet. Still the foobar2000 method sounds interesting, had not heard of that before. Thanks dex.

[A440]

I've just uploaded an hour of PCM with many tracks joined on the disc with no mishaps, including one that must have had 10 tracks joined and ran 26 minutes. So with 3.4, at least for me, that bug is gone.

There's still an oddity: occasionally a track mark won't be accessible on the unit. You can go to the one before or after, but not that one.

So when I got the tracks uploaded, I had to Combine that one. But that was the long track, so it was 29 minutes total--longer than Dex's 15-minute limit.

Doing it on the unit (or with SS uploads and Combine) lets you check just before you join tracks. But the foobar method might be less time-consuming in the end.

[dex Otaku]

I've just uploaded an hour of PCM with many tracks joined on the disc with no mishaps, including one that must have had 10 tracks joined and ran 26 minutes. So with 3.4, at least for me, that bug is gone.

In the future, having tested that SS 3.4 apparently has no issues uploading tracks joined on the unit, I'll likely use this method for recordings with only a few tracks.

Note to users who want to join tracks on their portables: to repeat the manual [as well as the sticker on the back on 1st gen HiMD units]: use the AC adapter while editing.

So when I got the tracks uploaded, I had to Combine that one. But that was the long track, so it was 29 minutes total--longer than Dex's 15-minute limit.

The 10-15 minute limit was based on that [with my machine, my hdd interface, my hdd's, &c.] being the threshold with PCM files above which SS would appear to lock up completely. This depends on your hardware, &c. If anyone wants to invest the time to find their own hardware's threshold, they're welcome to.

Using the bubble-join method [i call it that because it reminds me of bubble sorting] is more about limiting the number of files in each tracks, and keeping the size below that threshold for most of the operation. Once you've joined many tracks to bring them up to that threshold size, the rest is about joining as few huge tracks as possible in each pass until you have only the one to end with. The threshold is important but does vary.

Doing it on the unit (or with SS uploads and Combine) lets you check just before you join tracks. But the foobar method might be less time-consuming in the end.

It's also completely non-destructive, and therefore, completely risk-free.