If I Would Have Known...

[Flexis]

The thing that really suck's about the RH-10 is that it can't record real sp even through analog.If I would have know that I would have bought a first gen Hi-md.

I don't really need mp3 cos I can convert to atrac anyway with sonicstage.

I would happely swap the mp3 capabilities for the capabilities of a first gen.

The mp3's get crippeled anyway.With the custom EQ that's not really a problem but still switching between EQ's is anoying.

We have to somehow force Sony to put those lost features back in with a firmware upgrade and fix the mp3 playback while there at it,and to overdo it why not ad a line out mode in the EQ too.As long as they don't lock the EQ again and the volume.

Edited June 17, 2005 by Flexis

[Christopher]

Flexis, you really have to do your homework with Minidisc - it's been mentioned incessantly throughout the forums and even in the official RH10 thread that this unit would NOT be able to facilitate recording certain bitrates on the unit itself - only the full choice would be available via Sonicstage.

[Flexis]

I really have been reading reviews and reading this forum before ordering the RH-10.I knew about it's limitation's and decided they wheren't a big problem to me thinking all the way that it would fully support the classic MDSP/LP modes through analog just like the very first MD players.I knew all the limitation's on USB tranfer.

Then I opened the manual and read "the RH-10 can only record in Hi-Md mode".

Oh no !!!

[Christopher]

Well, what do you think of 256kbps ATRAC3plus? It's a damn good alternative to the old SP mode.

[Flexis]

Yeah it's good if you are not planning to use it on a home stereo and car head unit that doesn't support Hi-Md like I was planning. I make music in my home studio,not everything happen's on the pc I have quite some outboard gear too.

I wanted to be able to record the line out from my mixing desk straight to MD in sp mode so I could quickly make some recording's to check out on different sound sytem's or take with me in my car or whatever.It's also ideal if I'm just jamming and fiddling with the knobs some interesting thing's can happen you know. Now I'll have to record every outboard piece into Cubase and mix it in software.Then export as wav and encode to fake sp or possibly lp2/4 (my car unit doesn't play lp but my hifi does). Or I could record to MD in Hi-sp live through the desk and then upload and convert to fake sp or lp.

Anyway I hope you can see my point here.I don't understand why sony makes their own new hardware incompatible with their old hardware their stabbing themselves in the back.Do they really think I'm now gonna buy a new stereo and car unit too.Maybe the car head unit will be replaced in the near future cos' it''s pretty worn but my stereo is still good as new though it's 4 years old. (DHC-NX5MD)

Where can I mail Sony with complaint's I've been looking but no succes.

I'm sorry to say but the RH10 is a joke.It look's damn good but it's not a real MD player any more.Sony you failed me and I bought so much stuff frum you guy's blech!

Edited June 9, 2005 by Flexis

[bug80]

If only Sony would offer true SP uploads in the next version of SonicStage, that would make a lot of 2nd gen owners happy (and owners of other USB units too!). I really don't understand why they don't support true SP now that people can transfer their tracks in Hi-SP and even PCM.

[dex Otaku]

If only Sony would offer true SP uploads in the next version of SonicStage, that would make a lot of 2nd gen owners happy (and owners of other USB units too!). I really don't understand why they don't support true SP now that people can transfer their tracks in Hi-SP and even PCM.

←

True SP does not support hardened DRM. End of story.

[Flexis]

What the hell is hardened DRM?

[dex Otaku]

By hardened DRM I mean the digital rights management system used by HiMD and other recent Sony players. I also mean other variants of DRM used by other systems, especially those which rely on online music sales.

MD / MDLP recordings are limited to using SCMS, which basically no longer counts as a form of DRM, because it is so easily bypassed.

[bug80]

True SP does not support hardened DRM.  End of story.

←

Ok, that's clear.

[Guest hair old]

I STILL CANNOT BELIEVE THAT SONY HAS ABANDONED 12 YEARS OF MD!!!!!

THE NEW PLAYERS DO NOT SUPPORT SP RECORDING??????????? WHAT THE HELL!!!!!!!!!!

THIS MAY BE THE LAST STRAW FOR ME. I'M STARTING TO ACTUALLY HOPE THAT SONY GOES UNDER!!!!!!! EF SONY!!!! EF EM!!!!!!!!!

[dex Otaku]

I STILL CANNOT BELIEVE THAT SONY HAS ABANDONED 12 YEARS OF MD!!!!!

THE NEW PLAYERS DO NOT SUPPORT SP RECORDING???????????  WHAT THE HELL!!!!!!!!!!

THIS MAY BE THE LAST STRAW FOR ME.  I'M STARTING TO ACTUALLY HOPE THAT SONY GOES UNDER!!!!!!!  EF SONY!!!!  EF EM!!!!!!!!!

←

First: Please stop shouting.

Second: they haven't abandoned MD completely. All HiMDs can -play- MD and MDLP.

Third: Did you expect the format to last forever? MD itself came out in 1992. Newer and better things are possible now. As with anything technological, you can either severely compromise the next generation by maintaining 100% backward-compatibility, or you can simply accept that it's time to move on.

It's time to move on.

[Syrius]

I don't understand how Hi-MD can DRM huge wav files, but not SP at 292. *shrugs*

[dex Otaku]

I don't understand how Hi-MD can DRM huge wav files, but not SP at 292. *shrugs*

←

Hi-MD has a completely different data structure than MD. All unit-playable audio is DRM'd, track info is stored in a vastly different manner, &c. It uses, more or less, a filesystem of its own on top of FAT16, permitting storage of any files you want to throw on the disc, as a standard USB storage device.

MD was designed specifically [and exclusively] for audio use, long before DRM really existed. It uses a filesystem, or rather, data structure, much like CD's. The closest thing to DRM supported by it is SCMS, which is easily defeated.

HiMD supports high-bitrate encoding and PCM because it has "real" DRM.

Sony's choice to not allow writing of SP from SS is most likely based on the weakness of MD's copy protection measures [sCMS].

Their choice to not allow writing of true SP to HiMD is most likely based on a decision like, "if NetMD users can't use it, HiMD users can't, because that would be unfair, and difficult to control to boot."

[zerodB]

MDLP came along before NetMD, and yet MDLP tracks can be tagged with DRM? It doesn't make sense. Sony could have easily ported the ATRAC-SP encoder to PC software, just like they did with ATRAC3.

Anyway, it's all hypothetical now.

[dex Otaku]

MDLP came along before NetMD, and yet MDLP tracks can be tagged with DRM? It doesn't make sense. Sony could have easily ported the ATRAC-SP encoder to PC software, just like they did with ATRAC3.

I take it as a direct acknowledgement from Sony that:

* SP is higher quality than they want people to have access to from a computer without DRM [as well as the reasons I already mentioned]

* LP2 is of low enough quality that it's nothing to worry about

* HiMD must be LP2-capable because that's what their online music store uses [garbage, IMO]

I could have said this before, but I took it for granted that it would be obvious.

[Flexis]

I don't care that much about sonicstage not being able to transfer sp I'm only asking to be able to record sp straight to Minidisc on the RH10 and then go downstairs or to my car and play it!

Just like the very very first MD recorder's.

Originally I just wanted to buy an old MD recorder from ebay just to be able to record the output from my mackie mixer straight to MD and then be able to play it on my two other MD player's. (stereo,carunit).

I then found out about Hi-Md and discovered how much MD had evolved while I wasn't looking. At the time I was also interested in some kind of hi quality field recorder and some kind of mp3 player, ipod, hd player,... I just thought hey with these new Hi-Md unit's I can have all three at once so I ordered one.

Then when it arrived I started looking through the manual and saw that it couldn't record to the old MD (sp/lp) on the unit itself at all.

Oh no!!!

That's what I originally wanted it for and now I still can't do that.

I'll have to find a cheap MD recorder just for that after all.

Or sony has to release it's first MD firmware upgrade :-(

Damn you sony!!

[The Low Volta]

I'll have to find a cheap MD recorder just for that after all.

Or sony has to release it's first MD firmware upgrade :-(

←

or you could buy a first gen Hi-MD and enjoy everything except MP3

greetings, Volta

[Flexis]

Yes because I have a money tree growing in my garden...

[Guest hair old]

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EF'N REASON FOR SONY TO NOT INCLUDE REAL TIME SP RECORDING!!!!

THIS IS NOT "MOVING ON" ITS MOVING INTO THE SCRAPHEAP OF HISTORY!!!!

YOU STATE "BETTER THINGS ARE NOW AVAILABLE...ITS TIME TO MOVE ON"...DIDN'T MOST PEOPLE DO THAT WHEN THEY BOUGHT AN IPOD??? THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO USE MD ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE SUPPORTED IT FOR YEARS!!!! THE FACT THAT SONY HAS GIVEN THE BIG "F U" TO US JUST PROVES MY POINT!!!!!

THEY ARE KILLING MD! WHY????? OH LORD WHY???????

[Christopher]

What's happening with Minidisc, or rather Hi-MD, is the same thing that happens with anything new and interesting. At the beginning, everybody wants to see what it is. They gather around and check it out. But gradually, people start to lose interest.

The people who don't lose interest become more and more involved. And the medium starts to be influenced by only those people. It becomes something exclusive to the people who've stuck with it for a long time. And when the people who were interested in it at first look back at it, it's no longer the thing that interested them.

So obviously, it's very important for Sony to create brand new things that bring back those people. But it's just as important to create the kind of format that current digital audio player/recorder enthusiasts know they like.

This topic shall be moved to the Hi-MD criticisms/suggestions forum. Props to anyone who knows where my words came from.

[Guest hair old]

You're not going to bring anyone "back" by abandoning what they loved about the original that is so simply included yet PURPOSELY disregarded!!!! I.E., SP!!!!!!

[Christopher]

Hi-SP is nice, and I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. Buy a first gen if you want the bridge; it's time for Hi-MD to spread it's wings. What if the third generation had no old MD compatibility whatsoever and even more bitrate/codec options? Would you shun it then?

The Walkman phone, which debuted this year, has AAC - I wouldn't doubt that Hi-MD is next.

[Syrius]

Just hope that if we see an AAC compatible Hi-MD soon, that Sony won't cripple the audio output the way they did with MP3.

So, true SP on NetMD and Hi-MD could have been done all right, it's just that Sony didn't allow it, correct? (DRAT).

But yeah, we got Hi-SP and IMHO it sounds just fine and is fast enough for me when transferring from my system.

[Flexis]

And still I can't just record the line in anywhere any time and pop the MD straight in my stereo or car head unit ...blech !

[veezhun]

I really dont see what the issue is.. Sony thought of pleasing many users especially new users to get into the MiniDisc format with the launch of the mp3 capable series. What I dont understand is this obsessive need for true SP recording. While I agree that true SP does benefit a number of car deck users, the new generation is moving on. If someone wants MDLP recording modes on his Hi Md recorder, then go buy an Nh900 or Nh1 and kindly do some research before buying. If adequate research is not done, there is no point in bitching about sony.

I use the Rh10 and am extremely satisfied with the results. Sonicstage is not the monster everyone claims it to be. The installation is painful, accepted, but once installed it works quite well. For really desperate users of car decks that do not support Hi MD, use SS to record in MDLP mode.. SS records in MDLP even in the second generation Hi MD's. Before i get pasted with comments on how SP on sonicstage is not true SP and is lp2 wrapped as SP, i am aware of this and only pointing it out the concerned person.

[atrain]

I really dont see what the issue is.. Sony thought of pleasing many users especially new users to get into the MiniDisc format with the launch of the mp3 capable series. What I dont understand is this obsessive need for true SP recording. While I agree that true SP does benefit a number of car deck users, the new generation is moving on. If someone wants MDLP recording modes on his Hi Md recorder, then go buy an Nh900 or Nh1 and kindly do some research before buying. If adequate research is not done, there is no point in bitching about sony. ..

...SS records in MDLP even in the second generation Hi MD's. Before i get pasted with comments on how SP on sonicstage is not true SP and is lp2 wrapped as SP, i am aware of this and only pointing it out the concerned person.

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i think you come down on my side of the debat exactly here. moral is do your research before buying anything.

for me there is a reasonable amount of backward compatibility, mdlp as a format is already very old if counted in personal electronics, legacy playback & netmd transfer is a bonus in a new system not a requirement.

[Terence Kelly]

MDLP came along before NetMD, and yet MDLP tracks can be tagged with DRM? It doesn't make sense. Sony could have easily ported the ATRAC-SP encoder to PC software, just like they did with ATRAC3.

Anyway, it's all hypothetical now.

←

I agree. It seems like Sony could have supported true SP in sonic stage very easily. The DRM thing makes no sense. Sony Connect does not use the new formats for its downloads. It uses LP2. Sony should have supported analog uploads from older minidiscs as well. SCMS would have clearly identified files that might be problematic. The whole DRM thought process seems off to me. You can easily make analog copies of any music that are far superior to anything you can download from current music services. Anyone wanting to bootleg can do it easily. The current scheme seems largely to foil those trying to use their devices legally. Is 128K MP3 or 132K Atrac really worth all the protection?

TK

[Flexis]

As some people think I didn't research you should read this thread better.

I'm not just bitchin on Sony beacause of my own fault, neither am I asking for true sp support in sonic stage.

I just don't understand why Sony suddenly drop's the original MD recorder standard while first gen unit's still have it.I'm talking about line-in here not SS. They are happy to advertise their mp3 support and the unit even comes with a mp3 sticker on it but they sure haven't made it clear anywhere in advertising or on the net that this unit can not record sp/lp true line in.

That's one hell of a sacrifice for a crappy mp3 function.

I did research but it seem's this is a very overlooked shortcoming as everyone is focussing too much on SS.

The only thing I can now ask for as a small compromise is actually treu sp in SS as everyone is bitchin about that.

Then I can at least record in Hi-sp or pcm, upload and download in real sp.

[dex Otaku]

I just don't understand why Sony suddenly drop's the original MD recorder standard while first gen unit's still have it.I'm talking about line-in here not SS.

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It's called a transition phase, and anyone who has been paying attention to HiMD since its official announcement in early 2004 should have been fully expecting this to happen.

The idea behind the transition phase is to provide units that provide full backward-compatibility alongside the features of the new generation. This is done more as a courtesy than as a requirement. With many other formats out there, no effort is made for backward-compatibility at all. DVD would be a notable exception to this, though in all honesty, I have only ever met one person who uses their DVD player to also play audio CDs. Most of the others I know aren't even aware that their DVD player can play CDs, and are surprised by it when told.

If you can't accept that formats evolve [MD -> MDLP, MDLP -> NetMD] and eventually are superceded [HiMD], then all I can suggest is that you don't buy or use the products in question.

Some of us [i am in this camp] have no reason to use MD/MDLP modes at all. I have no legacy equipment to concern myself with compatibility over.

For those of you who are looking to maintain full backward-compatibility because they have a large library of legacy MD or MDLP discs, playback compatibility has been maintained in HiMD. If you need to make discs for compatible playback, there is a huge market out there for used equipment, and some manufacturers are also still making MD / MDLP midi systems and portables.

For all intents and purposes, however, MD and MDLP should be considered officially deprecated by Sony, the company that created both.

HiMD itself will likely go through at least another phase of this if Sony decide to release higher-capacity discs than 1GB. For more info, check out the research section on www.minidisc.org.