Jump to content

Sorry Sony -- Blu Ray is already obsolete. Nice one Pioneer

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

Great stuff here -- a HIGH DEFINITION TV DVD recorder that doesn't need Blu-Ray either.

I suspect more and more DVD-RECORDERS will become Hard disk based with facilities for copying to external DVD.

I like this one particularly since it has a MASSIVE 500 GB hard disk and even provision for an external hard disk when the internal one is full. It will also play and record to all current DVD formats.

It also has HDMI output which gives very high quality indeed when connected to an LCD or Plasma TV having an HDMI connection even at "Normal TV" resolution - i.e not HDTV.


For HD TV this to me seems the way to go. Keep the HD recordings on Hard Disk until you've watched them and then if you want to archive these copy to "normal removable media".

If sony think that adults are going to watch TV or Movies using the Blu Ray disc from a PS3 (or is it an XBOX) console then they are totally barking up the wrong tree.

The only draw back with this Pioneer model is that it won't play HDTV from removable media (standard DVD only), however since you can get a whole slew of HD movies from SKY TV in the UK or can or download from the Net via subscription / cable services this isn't such a horrible drawback as might be imagined. You can get around this anyway by re-loading the recording back on to the hard disk as DATA (assuming you saved it as DATA rather than copied it as DVD Video).

This recorder will of course play back standard DVD's plus all your own from DVD-RAM, DVD+/-R(W) and D/L discs as well.

Note that as it has an HDMI slot it can record HDTV movies directly from a SKY+ HD Box to its own internal HD as well or from any other HDMI equipped devices.

The SKY+ HD box has its own 160 GB hard disc so you probably wouldn't do this unless you want to save permanaetly the HDTV content which you would then copy from the Pionerr machine to standard DVD's or another Hard Disk as DATA (not DVD Video).

A 500 GB hard disk can easily hold over 1400 HOURS of TV which equates to around severa hundred 2 hour movies at standard resolution or around 200 ( or more) HDTV 1080p High Definition TV 2 hr movies so you've got ample time to watch and archive before the disk gets full.

I used to think SONY was THE company for electronics and innovation -- but it seems to be sadly lacking in Vision or Leadership currently - Their BRAVA LCD TV's and some sensors for DSLR's being 2 notable exceptions.

This is EXACTLY the type of product SONY should be bringing out -- I can see this being a very popular device totally in tune with how a lot of DVD content is being delivered in future and totally avoids being involved in the new "Format Wars".

Nice one Pioneer. A real winner here.



Edited by 1kyle
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Uhm I hardly think this makes BluRay obsolete in any form, shape, or way. :rolleyes: First of all Blu-Ray needs not be played on a PS3 (your assumption of that and your question about the Xbox makes it kinda clear that you've got little understanding of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD as it is).

HDD recorders are nothing new or innovative at this point in time, so I don't get where Sony's lack of innovation comes in. Furthermore optical disc formats and HDDs have co-existed since the very first CD-ROM disc/drive was used/introduced. HDDs were always faster and in the last 5-10 years they've always been quite cheap, per unit storage. You could record TV broadcasts (whether broadcast, digital cable, PPV, satillite, whatever) since before TiVo was invented. Did those things make DVDs obsolete?

Yet you're telling us a device with a HDD and a DVD drive somehow makes Blu-Ray obsolete? LOL you're joking right? Blu-Ray makes DVD obsolete not the other way around. HDDs are a different topic altogether. Perhaps one day downloading or recording content will make optical discs obsolete for distributing movies and other video content, however that day is a long long way a way IMO. CDs are still selling but we've had services like iTunes and the like (along with illegal downloading) for perhaps over 8 years now, with at least 5 of those of it being "popular".

Plus your talk of "adults" being more inclined to use your HDD box of the future being more likely? Okay, riiiight. Nevermind that the majority of downloaders both legal and illegal are the younger generation. Who do you think is buying most of the CDs and DVDs these days if not adults?

If anything the Pioneer recorder you have is the obsolete one here. I mean you could compare that to a PC of the HTPC variety and find that you could do far more with the PC and it would be more cost effective. The price of the 940HX is coming up for me at around 1000 pounds. 1000 pounds??? LOL. That's like $2000 US. Do you know what kind of HTPC you could build with that money? I'll tell you this much it will have more capability than a simple 500 GB HDD and DVD burner. Even considering such a box would cost only perhaps half that marketed in the US (as things are cheaper in the US), you could still build a pretty competent HTPC that's going to do more for you than just be a set-top recorder unit.

How on earth does a DVD recorder + HDD (which has been available for years, mind you) make Blu-Ray (cutting edge optical disc technology) obsolete? Have you been smoking something? What then, would you consider a Blu-Ray recorder + HDD? A miracle? LOL.

Before you call Blu-Ray obsolete, do us a favour and come back to reality. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD (in their current forms) are both "over", IMO...

Joe User knows best, and if they think Joe will take to these formats like he did DVD, they've got another thing coming.

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD (in their current forms) are both the best thing ever, IMO.

See, like Joe, I can post two-liners too--they don't mean much but hey it's distracting/pointless to do it :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

See, like Joe, I can post two-liners too--they don't mean much but hey it's distracting/pointless to do it :rolleyes:

allow me to give reasons:

* restrictive DRM

* high royalties

* too incremental of an improvement over DVD for Joe User (both disc-based, one is higher res. Someone please convince Joe to upgrade...)

* introduction too early

* cost of production (of Blu-Ray, in any case) too high

* cost of "HD" displays and periphery too high and will be for some time

Sure, a percentage of the market will love it / do love it.

As I say, it won't get the market share they expect / are hoping for. Not even close compared to DVD. Not even in 10 years.

All the while soooo many formats (computer as well as CE) will be challenging these formats (and these formats themselves WILL evolve drastically from what they are now). Wait and see. They know they have formats now about as appealing to Joe User as a wet blanket. I don't think HDs are the solution. I think robust removable media will always be needed for the forseeable. And for the forseeable, DVD will take care of that.

All IMO, of course.

Better products don't 'win'. Significantly better products 'win'. Convince Joe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IMO Blu Ray / HD DISK is already obsolete for several reasons.

1) As an archiving medium the disks aren't large enough -- going from relatively cheap DVD-RAM double sided disks @ 9.7GB with a life span of over 200 years and a read / write cycle of over 100,000 the 25GB or so of a BLU-RAY disc with unproven Read Write cycles or longevity standards won't cut it in the commercial archiving stakes.

You'd need to have at least 200 GB disks to make any inroad here. Nobody would invest 000's of dollars in just going from 9.7GB per disc to 18 or even 30 GB per disk. You need a significant increment in data storage size before people will upgrade their archives like going from 600 MB CD to 4.7 GB on DVD (approx 8.5X improvement).

Now I grant a lot of younger readers of this post probably won't have a clue about DVD-RAM but just google a little and you'll see these are incredibly robust and useful for permanent storage when you don't need the humungous volumes that currently only tapes can provide - even though tape is still for most people in the realms of "Dinosaur Technology".

Banks, the Police, the CIA etc etc still rely heavily on tape storage even with its known drawbacks for VAST data archiving. Nothing else even comes close in the high volume permanent archiving stakes. DVD-RAM is used for smaller volume archiving - especially where sensitive / important data needs to be kept for the proverbial "Donkey Years".

External Hard Disks are not used ever as permanant archive in commercial organisations although they do have uses as first level backup and for some types of "Data Disaster and Recovery scenarios".

2) I don't know too much about TV distribution in the US but here in the UK we can get loads of HDTV content already from providers such as SKY TV and NTL. You can store the HDTV movies on something like a SKY+ HD digibox which has an internal HD drive and will give you up to 200 Hours of HD TV -- that's approx 100 films before the disk gets full -- and you can copy these to external disks or DVD's either as DVD-Video or as pure DATA so you can keep the HDTV format even on a bog standard DVD if you need to. You will need to copy the DVD back to the hard disk if you want to watch the content again in HDTV format - but again no big deal and in any case using the HDMI connections even Bog standard DVD formats can look surprisingly good on a nice large plasma / lcd tv).

3) A SKY HD subscription only costs 10 GBP a month (18 USD) so why on earth should I invest in a BLU RAY DVD player (around 1400 USD which won't even record) and have to fork out over 22 GBP or around 35 USD for an individual BLU-RAY movie when I can get loads from SKY's 2 HD (Soon to be more) movie channels (SKY MOVIES HD9 / SKY MOVIES HD10) to say nothing of BBC HD currently testing and many more channels to come later.

Another point is that the SKY+ and BBC HD services don't restrict you from recording their output unlike Internet Movie downloads. No DRM and content viewable on large Plasma LCD's is enough to make this service increasingly popular.

If I want to save the HD movies on to DVD with the pioneer player - OK it's a bit cumbersome but copying the film as DATA and then writing it back to the Hard disk works fine.

4) Hollywood isn't producing enough new content anyway these days and what there is hits the DVD market now just a few weeks after Cinema release so it's no big deal waiting for a movie to appear on SKY HD rather than cough up 35 USD for a 1 off BLU RAY DVD.

5) Those of you who think the Internet / fast broadband will supply content which you can then store on your nice BLU-RAY DVD recorder will be sorely disappointed if the Music Industry is anything to go by. What you will get (never mind how fast your broadband is) is a severely compressed movie so riddled with DRM which will specify that you can only play it on a particular piece of equipment usually the Hard Disk of the PC it has been downloaded to and for only a specified number of days after you've downloaded it.

BLU-RAY players also have this "Feature" enabled on internal Hard Disks on the HD + BLU RAY component players.

You can already see a foretaste of what is to come here. The few movies that have been released via "Internet Download" cannot be copied to a "Standard DVD" and must be played within 7 days on the computer they were downloaded to.

Thanks -- for Nothing -- I don't want to connect a stupid PC or laptop to a nice 60 inch Plasma HD TV just to watch a film that the Computer Graphics card or Computer software DVD player has to "down-rez" because it can't handle the resolution of the 60 inch Plasma HD TV, and I might want to watch the film again sometime in the future --why not if I've paid for it like a "conventional DVD".

Look at the music industry -- nobody offers CD quality downloads --WAV uncompressed CD images. Why not - and let the users rip the CD image themselves--we have fast enough broadband now and a 600mb CD wouldn't take long at 8MB/S download.

Usually you get something like 128 kbs mp3 which is fine in an IPOD on a train listened to with those horrible white ear bud phones but not when played back through high end studio quality gear and using things like like Mission Speakers.

IMO if you can buy a CD in a store you should be able to download a CD image just like you were buying one from a physical store. CD's don't have any issues with DRM so why should Itunes compressed junk have it.

In addition downloaded music such as Itunes with all the DRM crud is so restrictive that it's worse than useless when you want to copy the stuff to a new IPOD or you've lost the old one and want to re-download music you've already paid for.

The BLU-RAY type of device would have been great even a couple of years ago --but technolgy has moved on.

Proper Content will be stored on a HD device where you can watch what you want when you want.

Even though the SKY+ service hasn't been around for too long yet 85% of the users "Time Shift" their content. It's only the next step to people abandoning TV schedules altogether, and ordering a download via SKY / other provider of everything they want to view and then viewing it wen they want to at the HD quality they want as well.

The whole TIVO idea was great but a bit before its time. Look at SKY+ HD's service now now -- much more like a viable service and this is only the start.

In around 2 years time for most people TV schedules will be totally insignificant as people will select what they want and have it delivered seamlessly to there box whether by satellite, phone cable or whatever.

Who will actually need to go out to a store and buy a physical DVD. (Only if the movie industry screws up like the music industry with its real DRM and high compression CRUD). Fortunately unlike Audio where you can get away with some degree of compression, highly compressed movies played on those nice expensive huge PLASMA or LCD TV's you've all bought yourselves do really even to the most untrained eye look hideous so there will be a real demand for downloadable movies at the highest resolution possible.

For me just as the TIVO was a bit before its time the BLU-RAY is after its time.

Buying a BLU-RAY DVD movie isn't worth it @ 25 - 40 USD a pop when the SKY TV service only costs around 18 USD PER MONTH and your HDTV services in the States are likely to be cheaper still and paying 30 USD for blank discs is also not an option when I can buy a 500 GB external hard disk for around 100 USD.

So I'm still confused as to exactly what BLU-RAY is trying to achieve --Movie watching or archiving --it won't cut it.

The Pioneer is not a "Next Generation" device but it makes handling Next Generation stuff fine (you can save HDTV format stuff as data) and is compatable with current technology.

I'm all in favour of new stuff which actually DOES something new such as a Digital Camera - but I really don't see where BLU-RAY is leading us as its time IMO has definitely passed.



Edited by 1kyle
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The biggest threat to HDDVD and BluRay is Joe Consumer who's happy with his standard or upconverting DVD player and plasma screen, and who doesn't want to go buying movies all over again. Upconverting players FTW. (I predict BluRay will become the next DAT, but only because I hate Sony Entertainment.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The biggest threat to HDDVD and BluRay is Joe Consumer who's happy with his standard or upconverting DVD player and plasma screen, and who doesn't want to go buying movies all over again. Upconverting players FTW. (I predict BluRay will become the next DAT, but only because I hate Sony Entertainment.)

Higher quality equipment doesn't automatically mean more sales as shown by the cases of SACD and DVD-A (DVD-Audio). Even the new blu-ray players can't handle genuine DVD-A or the new HD-DOLBY audio format (absolutely stunning when heard in a theatre or sound studio test room)

-- So you pay your 1000 quid for your player and still can't get the HD-DOLBY audio out of it --or even 7-1. You are back to using your standard 5-1 system which at a pinch might give you DTS as well.


DVD-A has proved ever so slightly more popular than SACD which - apart from the stupid DRM (again) has really bombed but it really is a tiny niche market far far smaller than even MD.

Actually "Up-rezzing" Standard DVD's to 578 / 1080 (i or p) standards with HDMI output yields surprisingly good results

I'm a Pro Photographer and so understand how "Up-Rezzing" images works --ever seen a great 4 ft by 6 ft posters created by a professional digital camera (DSLR -- not a consumer grade Point and Shoot compact digital camera) which might only have a sensor resolution of 10 MP or so. Up-rezzing is a fact of life in these situations.

For still images you can use things such as "Genuine Fractals" or "Bi-Cubic Interpolation" (or a host of other algorithms) to increase your image size. Most of these algorithms are extremely effective.

Most current BLU-RAY film content is actually "Up-rezzed" film. Very few films have been shot in HD (High Definition) from the outset so the difference between a "Blu-Ray" DVD at 25 GBP played on a 800 GBP piece of equipment or a standard 5 GBP DVD played with a current DVD player which can "Up-REZ" and produce HDMI output like some on the market currently do now for as little as 80 GBP is insignificant when viewed on typical HDTV screens.

Just try "Up-rezzing" a DVD to 1080 or even 578 and view it via HDMI (or even using the Component output - the three coloured output phono sockets seen on modern equipment with funny lables like P, CH, L - Chroma, Luminence etc. -- I think but who cares anyway -- don't use the the Video phono / Scart connection or even the S-Video) and now come back and say you'll pay the extra nearly 1000 GBP for a BLU-RAY which just PLAYS disks.

I think not somehow.

HDTV is absolutely fantastic when you get true HDTV resolution - however as I've pointed out before there are so many cheaper and alternative ways of effectively delivering HDTV content now.

So SONY R.I.P but you did have some great products let down by hoplessly inadequate usability and DRM stupidity.

It'sl a shame to me that Car Radios and Portable radios STILLl are produced with CD playback.

Who on earth these days takes a bundle of CD's to their car with them even if they do have those stupid CD changers in the trunk / boot.

All these types of Radios should have been MD compatable from the start --In fact whilst I've seen many tape and CD portable radios I don't think I ever saw a single MD radio. (Portable Radio as opposed to a Mini Sound system).

What might rescue "Blu-Ray" is if the discs can be made to hold around 200 GB on them and they can be made say at a size between the current MD and DVD. This would make great archiving media, a decent portable recording device (for which the RH1 has shown a need exists), and a fantastic VIDEO and AUDIO playback device -- and forget about DRM -- the device must be able to play natively all current popular formats including say Apple lossless and WMA.

Sony -- you can't simply rely on the excellent BRAVIA LCD TV's and digital camera sensor chips. Something new, snazzy, cheap and PRACTICAL needs to come out of your labs if you are to survive. -- Even your excellent VAIO computers are being overshadowed by the Philips X- series -- ultra light and portable with impeccible screen quality and costing less than HALF the price of an equivalent SONY laptop.

If Philips (who used to have all the same "Dinosaur Technolgy" attributes that Sony is now acquiring) can re-invent itself and produce a lot of world beating products I'm sure SONY will do so too -- or it will soon join that great corportation in the sky.

Now in spite of the threads in this post I usually LIKE buying new gear but this time - not for me. It's too early in the product cycle and doesn't significantly offer me any better facilities than than I've got now.

Cheaper equipment and movies, larger capacity discs, compatability with existing equipment and being able to use the best sound formats around might make me re-visit the whole idea again but in its present incarnation BLU-RAY really STINKS for the price tag and features offered.



Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

I Know this is an OLD thread , but just an update of a years time

BluRay is alive in SOOOO many flavors here in Japan it isnt funny .

New Video Camcorders , ....... That record in ,..... Yep you guessed it BluRay , Panasonic , Sony , doin BluRay . BluRay , Blu Ray BluRay

Kyle , you dont make a good prophet ,.......... Leave the prophecies to the ascetics , and those who are spiritual minded !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When is a stand alone blu-ray recorder going to become available outside of Japan? I would like to buy one but I don't think Sony have any in the UK.

I will check that for you

But do a " Blu Ray recorder" search and watch what pops up



Sharp Aquos TV with Blu Ray recorder built in

Edited by Guitarfxr
Link to comment
Share on other sites

http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=365 - "Blu-ray is dead - heckuva job, Sony!"

The person who wrote that dribble , is not in reality , I live in Japan ,........... Blu Ray is Everywhere .

I dont own it , I am quite happy with my Hacked Panasonic to Play all regions , divx , SACD , SVCD , anything I throw at it Player ,

I Have a Tuner instead of a Digital TV , and I pick up Digital TV just fine , Built my own antenna system .

The statement is just a Point that although Blu Ray might not be taking off in Other Places , it is Mainstream here , ........ if it is Mainstream here , and as it is becoming fastly established as a Standard Medium ...... the eventuality is it will move from Mainstream here , to more than Niche elsewhere.

Dead , ...... is not the term I would use .

from bluray.com

Panasonic to Bring Blu-ray Recorder to US

Posted October 15, 2008 09:12 AM by Josh Dreuth

According to reports, Panasonic is currently planning to release a Blu-ray Disc recorder in the US during the first half of 2009, making them the first consumer electronics company to announced such intentions. Since the format launched, Japan has been ripe with Blu-ray recorders, while other countries sat in wait. Recently, Australia received a Panasonic Blu-ray recorder, and it now appears the US will finally get one too.

No technical specs were revealed at this time.

notice the date ..................


I dont think Sony is dead at all


Bluray Dead???


1 touch transfer


boy look at the Dates on this stuff


(I like this one ,.... it is MAC compatible !!)

I only came up with 4 million hits on a search for "Blu Ray Recorders " ............... Dead huh ????

I hope your never my doctor ................... " This one is Dead , mark the time 9:25 PM " and the cute nurse in pigtails , says " But Doctor , he is still MOVING !!! He has a Pulse ,..... AND a Bottle of RUM in his hand !!!!""

I am there thinking , whoa man why are they puttin dirt on top of me ,.........

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Update :

All the new Sharp TV's are coming out with Blue Ray recorders BUILT IN Blue Ray Computers are out now , External Drives USB and Firewire are out now .

I see TV ad's EVERY DAY , at least 6 times a day for the new Sharp TV 's Blue Ray built in . Some of the Panasonics are as well .

It will be coming to the US soon .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The person who wrote that dribble , is not in reality , I live in Japan ,........... Blu Ray is Everywhere .

I dont own it , I am quite happy with my Hacked Panasonic to Play all regions , divx , SACD , SVCD , anything I throw at it Player ,

Considering you may be classed as an enthusiast, that's pretty telling, don't you think? ;)

If Blu-Ray can give me lots of removable storage for cheap, I'm all for it. Right now it is failing to entice me. I never plan to buy movie content or buy dedicated non-computer CE hardware for it (tho the PS3 is the most tempting simply 'cause it does games). Let the niches hungry for movie content (or the PS3) help bring the prices down to enable cheap recorders.

I was on the Cyberlink site a while ago, and one of their support pages showed a pop-up requesting required updates needing to be downloaded (presumably some AACS updates) in order to continue to play content. When I saw that, I had to laugh; there's no mistaking who is bending over and taking it just to enjoy a movie. Ridiculous. I don't care if it's once every 18 months, an internet connection and update should never be required to play a movie I have paid for, any time I damn please.

I'm sure there are ways around this (AnyDVD, for instance) but all this is a big joke. HD content is great. Blu-Ray is potentially great, but I ain't playing the DRM game, and boy do I miss those cartridges they initially designed for Blu-Ray. Those were great. Those things could almost tempt me to look the other way as I bend over for DRM and high software and hardware prices ;)

Don't get me wrong, there's a lot to like, but not under the current terms of use and wallet-rape :) ...and not while DVD is busted open, naked and cheap. It is quite simply good enough for the masses and it will take a LOT to knock her off her perch!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Panasonic just released a BD recorder for the EU market, the DMR-BW500EFK.


Mucho moneys.

BD recorder drives for PC's are not so expensive.

About 10x more expensive than a DVD burner, but they are relatively sanely-priced in comparison to the standalone CE stuff. Blanks still far too high, IMO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

More silliness from people who can't remember their history. BluRay is better standardized than CD or DVD ever was. It's been held up a little by the format war, but not all that much. The switch to HD TV that is just starting is going to fuel demand for HD discs in a way that other formats never got.

Fairly quickly we're going to see DVDs go off the market, so people who are buying upconverting DVD players are throwing their money away.

People who think that downloads are going to compete with discs are dreaming. It takes too long to download even a DVD right now. It's going to be a long time before we see any large scale HD downloading.

As for future formats, you need TV sets bigger than 100" before you'll see a significant need for a new format. I think the BluRay is good for the next while. Not that we're not going to see higher-capacity disks coming out but the movie format is probably going to be stable for a while.

Besides, just as BluRay doesn't stop you from playing your DVDs, any new format will be able to play BluRays as well. After all, going smaller causes problems at the retail end - too easy to steal. The 12cm disk format works because it is too large to slip into most pockets.

Of course, there is the possibility that we'll switch to something radically different, but there is nothing on the horizon just yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A player without DVD-Audio support is almost useless for me. I use DVD-Audio for archiving my audio collections. 10-15 CDs easily fit on a single-sided single-layer DVD-blank in their original quality (using MLP). Too bad the format never really took off. It is really great for storing CD-quality music. Imagine the entire "classic" Beatles catalog (14 albums, including two double ones) on a single disc! Playable by any PC (using PowerDVD or WinDVD) or DVD-Audio-compatible set-top.

Edited by Avrin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A player without DVD-Audio support is almost useless for me. I use DVD-Audio for archiving my audio collections. 10-15 CDs easily fit on a single-sided single-layer DVD-blank in their original quality (using MLP). Too bad the format never really took off. It is really great for storing CD-quality music. Imagine the entire "classic" Beatles catalog (14 albums, including two double ones) on a single disc! Playable by any PC (using PowerDVD or WinDVD) or DVD-Audio-compatible set-top.

That's interesting. I had never considered DVD-Audio before for archiving. Could you provide any names of newer hardware units that can handle DVD-Audio through MLP?

Edited by kino170878
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Create New...