Problems with my MZ-RH10

[batfastad]

Hi everyone

I wonder if anyone can help.

I bought an MZ RH-10 Hi-MD unit back in June 2005 from Amazon.

But over the past 6 months it's developed some very annoying problems.

1) If I jolt the unit heavily, like running up stairs, the unit just cuts out completely.

Sound stops and it turns off, even if the battery has plenty of energy left.

Then turning it back on takes it back to the point the disc was at when I turned it on previously - not at the point when it turned off.

2) Copying music across, even to a brand new Hi-MD disc sometimes fails. The files appear to copy across correctly in SonicStage, but then when I try and play them they skip or don't come with any sound and an error saying Access Error comes up on the unit.

I recently tried with 2 brand new discs, and got the same problems with music copied over to the device.

3) Deleting music from the disc in SonicStage... the disc contents refreshes but the files are still there. Sometimes it takes 2/3 attempts to clear off those files.

I'm guessing that's a SonicStage problem though, I'm not running the latest version released on these forums, but the previous version.

But I think it might also be when deleting files that failed to copy properly above.

But these problems have only surfaced in the last 8 months or so.

For music playing I've been eying up a 4GB Meizu MiniPlayer for a while and I think I might go for one in the next couple of months.

For the past year or so I've only really used my RH-10 for MP3 playback anyway.

... so it might be time for me to move on

Is there any way I can get this fixed / repaired by Sony?

I'm guessing I'll have to pay to get it done, I've not checked my warranty or info in the box that it came in.

Anyone have a ballpark figure of how much it might cost?

Who should I contact?

Anyone else experienced these problems?

I'm in the UK, in case that makes any difference as to which department I should contact.

Thanks

Ben

[SiT]

2) Copying music across, even to a brand new Hi-MD disc sometimes fails. The files appear to copy across correctly in SonicStage, but then when I try and play them they skip or don't come with any sound and an error saying Access Error comes up on the unit.

I recently tried with 2 brand new discs, and got the same problems with music copied over to the device.

I got exactly the same problem with my RH-10. And it appeared only after almost a year of everyday use.

While transferring to a Hi-MD disk with SonicStage the player sometimes displays an Access Error, though SS either keeps transferring without any errors or displays windows' "program encountered an error and must close" error, but still keeps transferring. And when transfer is done, the playback either doesnt work at all (same error) or works, but only for some tracks, and with skipping.

Sometimes transfer goes just fine, with no errors at all, but when I try playing the tracks (either with SS or the player itself), the same Access Error appears on most tracks. (same as batfastad wrote)

Strange thing is player works fine with:

1) previosly recorded Hi-MD tracks (it reads them perfectly, but does not write correctly).

2) basic 80-min MD's in Hi-MD mode (both reads AND writes them fine). (So i guess the problem is not the lens or its mechanisms).

I also tried uploading / downloading stuff on Hi-MD with basic Explorer (as UMS). It works like 50% of time. (frequently accompanied with the same Access Errors on player's display)

e.g.: Uploading 4 mp3 tracks with sizes between 10-25 MBytes. The upload is really slow, but it's still going. 3 tracks transferred, 4th in progress and a new error comes in: "The path is too deep" (what kind of a strange error is that?). Well, trying to upload the 4th track again. And this time upload goes fine.

Now we try to playback the tracks directly from player or transfer them back to PC. 2 out of 4 tracks play just fine (with Media Player), other 2 just won't open. Transfer back to PC works for all tracks, but only 3 of them play well from start to the end, and the 4th either fails to open, or only plays a couple of minutes (out of 17) and then stucks.

First I thought the problem was the new SS4 I installed, but now I doubt it's all that easy. I'm gonna try it all with another PC, but I don't think it'll help.

So can anyone help please?? Any ideas?

[Avrin]

Problem #1 in the first post is the result of poor, dirty, or oxidized battery contacts. When the unit is subject to a shock, the battery gets disconnected for a moment, and the unit turns off immediately, without saving the current position to memory. When it is turned on again, the last memorized position is used to continue playback. I was able to easily reproduce the problem by simply opening the battery compartment door during playback. When I close it again and turn the unit on, it starts playback from the position it was turned on previously. Try cleaning battery and compartment contacts (be VERY careful!).

But there is one more problem with ALL RH10's. It also applies to the RH1. The OLED display is deteriorating quite quickly. Switch your RH10 to the service mode (as described in this forum). You do not have to change any settings there. The first screen you get is a repeating sequence of "version number", "all pixels on at low brightness", and "all pixels off". Press and hold the STOP button when all pixels are on to keep them this way. Now look at the display. You will see that the pixels that are used the most (play sign, battery icon, track time, etc.) are much darker than the surrounding ones. The OLED is wearing out! The more you use the unit, the darker the pixels get! If you use the unit only battery-powered, then track time pixels do not wear that much. But play sign and battery icon pixels are wearing out in any case.

There is a simpler way to cheсk this, though it will probably work only for those, who use the unit powered from the adapter and have their track time pixels worn out. Just press the MENU button during playback. The uppermost item will be "Edit", and at the right side of the same line there will be darker pixels exactly at the place where the unit usually displays track time.

I really regret I bought an RH10, and not an RH910 with its eternal LCD.

Edited January 26, 2007 by Avrin

[1kyle]

Problem #1 in the first post is the result of poor, dirty, or oxidized battery contacts. When the unit is subject to a shock, the battery gets disconnected for a moment, and the unit turns off immediately, without saving the current position to memory. When it is turned on again, the last memorized position is used to continue playback. I was able to easily reproduce the problem by simply opening the battery compartment door during playback. When I close it again and turn the unit on, it starts playback from the position it was turned on previously. Try cleaning battery and compartment contacts (be VERY careful!).

But there is one more problem with ALL RH10's. It also applies to the RH1. The OLED display is deteriorating quite quickly. Switch your RH10 to the service mode (as described in this forum). You do not have to change any settings there. The first screen you get is a repeating sequence of "version number", "all pixels on at low brightness", and "all pixels off". Press and hold the STOP button when all pixels are on to keep them this way. Now look at the display. You will see that the pixels that are used the most (play sign, battery icon, track time, etc.) are much darker than the surrounding ones. The OLED is wearing out! The more you use the unit, the darker the pixels get! If you use the unit only battery-powered, then track time pixels do not wear that much. But play sign and battery icon pixels are wearing out in any case.

There is a simpler way to cheсk this, though it will probably work only for those, who use the unit powered from the adapter and have their track time pixels worn out. Just press the MENU button during playback. The uppermost item will be "Edit", and at the right side of the same line there will be darker pixels exactly at the place where the unit usually displays track time.

I really regret I bought an RH10, and not an RH910 with its eternal LCD.

I'm afraid the RH10 was a real DOG in terms of recent MD's especially as the RH1 which came out just a little later was so good.

The only thing the RH10 had going for it IMO was the screen -- but if you just want a player only I'd get something like a tiny LEXAR which has a REMOVEABLE SD card (or MMC card also works) as well as 256MB internal memory and has a great display as well. These can be had for about 50 GBP (or if you can afford the really great but wallet bursting Bose QC3 noise cancelling headphones - you will get one FREE). Plays MP3's and PCM and you can use programs like Windows Explorer for transferring music (both ways). Works on Linux as well --nice apps like Hydrogen come into their own.

If you want to stick with SONY the nice new NW706 series of players are brilliant --use SS in the normal way. Size of these is like a typical cigarette lighter, they look really snazzy and play MP3's, Atrac (and Atrac lossless), AAC and WAV. Display is good as well.

I'd seriously think about "junking" the RH10 if I were you. Almost ANY MD unit is better with regard to build quality and ruggedness.

Cheers

-K

[greenmachine]

I wonder if you can slow down the aging process if you use the OLED at a lower brightness setting. Can the brightness be adjusted on the RH1(0)?

[echo]

if the lcd display access error it means you unit's optical assy (in rh10 it was ABX-U) has low power output

i mean the laser diode, not the setting

you can try to change another himd disc to test if it has this problem

[SiT]

echo: Does read-write process for Hi-MD discs require more power than basic MD disc recording? As I said before, my player reads/writes MDs (in Hi-MD mode) just fine, the problem is only with Hi-MD discs.

[Avrin]

greenmachine, there is no way to adjust brightness on RH10!

ru_stray. Your problem seems to be due to the fact that your aging laser is no longer able to write to 1Gb Hi-MD discs correctly. Writing to legacy MD discs, even in Hi-MD mode, is a different story. The laser mode for both MD and Hi-MD-formatted MD is the same (Magnetic Field Modulation in both cases). The higher capacity in the latter case is achieved through more efficent data modulation (1-7RLL instead of the good old EFM). But when it comes to 1 Gb Hi-MD blanks, the laser is switched to a totally different writing mode (Domain Wall Displacement Detection).

The problem can theoretically be solved by changing laser settings in service mode, since the laser is calibrated separately for all these recording modes. I have no idea how. Certainly more than one setting needs to be changed, and it will hardly be possible to re-calibrate your laser without a special calibration 1Gb Hi-MD disc.

Edited January 30, 2007 by Avrin

[SiT]

Finally an answer! And a good one! Thank you very much, Avrin!

So I guess I'm gonna have to give it to the service center then? Too bad... Judging from my experience with them, I can bet they'll change the etire lens component and resolder the board or something.. This will take both much time and money... And no guarantees or anything... But well, if I don't have a choice...

Avrin, I see you're from Moscow, too. Do u think they can really fix it here?

[Avrin]

Privet, ru_stray!

I don't know much about "official" service centers here in Moscow. But I am not sure that they can fix the problem the way it should be fixed. The way they seem to do it now is by replacing as much as they can, instead of re-adjusting the "still alive" parts. But fortunately, it is possible to find some "Kulibin" here, who is really good at repairing electronics, and has the required equipment (mainly, the calibration disc). This is not very easy, but still possible. Ask people at Gorbushka, Mitino, or visit some Russian forums. Unfortunately, Hi-MD equipment is not very popular here. What it may take in your case is simply re-adjusting values at addresses 0213 (nominal Hi-MD writing power/0.05), 0214 (Hi-MD writing temperature coefficient * (-100)), and 0216 (minimum Hi-MD writing power/0.05), but the repairman has to know exactly what to do. I do not now exactly, but most probably address 0213 will be the key. Just for your reference - the values of my RH10 at these addresses (it's the last two digits that matter, all hexadecimal) - address 0213: 8D, address 0214: 28, address 0216: 69. These amount to 7.05 mW, -0.4 %/°C, and 5.25 mW respectively.

Avrin.

PS. I used to repair microelectronics for a living some 15 years ago, but stopped doing this very long ago. That was a nice time of NO service manuals whatsoever, and very scarce replacement parts, if at all! Never repaired an MD unit though.

Edited January 30, 2007 by Avrin

[SiT]

Thanks again, Avrin!

I just checked my values in service menu, and they are the same as yours.

So I guess I have no choice but to call Sony's Service... :-(

[Avrin]

The service manual gives the following example values:

0213: 93 (7.35 mW)

0216: 74 (5.80 mW)

You may try setting these to see if this helps. Or try something in between. Don't forget to press the PAUSE button to save the new values.

Edited February 3, 2007 by Avrin

[Sparda]

Hmm, I wouldn't go repair it. It is not worth it. Rather you could get a different Hi-MD.

[Avrin]

At least it is worth trying for educational purposes. And it is not easy to get a new unit here in Moscow.

[comspec]

I meant SS 4.2... NOT 3.4 (need more coffee)

OK... this post must have jinxed my RH10.

I transfered about 850MB's of atrac3plus (192k) tunes to my RH10 yesterday... during playback, I'm noticing the same skipping. Might start off fine and then say 30s into the music... a gap... the display will jump a few secs (display=30s, then 38s) and the music will resume.

I wonder if this might be an issue with SS? I'm trying to remember if I've done any transfers with 3.4 since it was installed... and I can't remember any. Older transfers seem to be playing fine, so I say its something going on during the encoding or writing process.

Any thoughts?

Edited February 9, 2007 by comspec

[Avrin]

comspec, all this is really sad. From "about 850MB's" I derive that it was presumably a 1GB Hi-MD disc, and from "Older transfers seem to be playing fine" I derive that the laser is working just fine in Hi-MD reading mode. This has nothing to do with SonicStage. The laser is deteriorating. Slowly and inevitably. It is no longer able to write correctly in the DWDD mode.

[pojam]

hey avrin.

i kinda wished i was in here before i bought my rh10.

i guess i was hoping that the rh10 i'm buying would be error free and give me that solid state feeling.

alas that was shattered as i still can't upload my recording (recorded a gig today).

the rh10 was a second hand unit, but i didn't expect the laser to give me problems.

prior to this, i transferred a handful of mp3s and they plays fine.

is there any way i can fix this problem for good? because if not,

i'm thinking of selling this rh10 and get the rh1 which leads me to the next question:

will rh1 have this same problem?

much much thanks.

[Sparda]

The RH1 hasn't been out all that long. But from the looks of it, I think it will do fine. I only know that the N1 had serious problems with the ribbon cable. I think Sony has learned from their old mistakes, well I hope so.

[Avrin]

pojam, try adjusting your unit as described on the previdous page - this may help. Or may not.

As for the RH1, Sparda is right - it hasn't been here long enough. But if you look at today's market for electronics, you'll inevitably see that devices are made in a cheaper way with better looks, and marketed more aggressively, not taking into account any previous mistakes.

From a technical point of view, the RH1 uses a different optical pickup block, the ABX-U2, as compared to the RH10, which uses the ABX-UJ. Is it better or more reliable? I don't really know (don't have an RH1). Let's hope so.

PS. My RH10 is 11 months old, used really heavily, and does not give me any problems (knocking on wood), except for the OLED wear, which is also present in the RH1.

Edited February 18, 2007 by Avrin

[pojam]

last night i left my rh10 recording to fill a new hi-md disc.

when i tried to export it, here's what i got:

Cannot transfer any more tracks.

The memory of the device/media is full.

Untitled

my C: drive still have 592 mb, and my extraction target drive, G: still have 161 gb

should i clear my C drive?

avrin, personally, i don't think it's the laser diode. i tried troubleshooting this problem and i splitted my 35 mins of recording (track mark) into 3 segments of 10, 10 and 15 mins. the first segment (track 1 out of 3) and the last segment (track 3 out of 3) exports fine. i'm having access error on the middle segment which leads me to understand that it's a problem with the disc.

what's your take on that?

[Avrin]

I think that you should clear the C: drive, since it used by SonicStage during transfers.

As for the fact that you are having access errors in the middle segment - the errors of an aging laser may be randomly distributed. Today it's the middle segment, tomorrow it's the last, etc. I may be wrong though.

[Avrin]

ru_stray! THIS IS URGENT!!! They have the RH1 in stock: http://www.onlinetrade.ru/cash/info/34325.html !!! And for a decent $380. Already ordered one. Details later. Will be probably sold out by the end of the day.

ADDED: Got it!!! Wow, what a sound!!!

Edited February 19, 2007 by Avrin

[comspec]

Earlier, I had posted about problems with play back after transfering ~850MB of 192k music to a Hi-MD disc.

Today, I transferred those same tunes to the same disc, but as individual groups (i.e. one album at a time) rather than all at once. So far... so good. Playback is perfect.

I also noted that someone has posted having the SAME problem with an MZ-NH1, that we are having with the RH-10.

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=18597

Ideas?

[Sparda]

ru_stray! THIS IS URGENT!!! They have the RH1 in stock: http://www.onlinetrade.ru/cash/info/34325.html !!! And for a decent $380. Already ordered one. Details later. Will be probably sold out by the end of the day.

ADDED: Got it!!! Wow, what a sound!!!

I'm not sure how much that is, but check this out Link.

[Avrin]

Sparda, your link is $80 less, but I am not sure about shipment to Russia, and chances of receiving the unit undamaged.

BTW my link is already out of stock.

Edited February 28, 2007 by Avrin

[jebejbesz]

alas that was shattered as i still can't upload my recording (recorded a gig today).

the rh10 was a second hand unit, but i didn't expect the laser to give me problems.

prior to this, i transferred a handful of mp3s and they plays fine.

hi you all. I have exactly the opposite problem. I can transfer mic recordings to my computer via SS but can't upload music files. it says that files have been recorded on another computer what is not true. many thanks in advance

[sfbp]

I think I finally got to the bottom of this one, three years on.

INCREASING the setting that Avrin refers to here (post #20 above) and in several later threads on the forum indeed increases the write power.

Unfortunately I have discovered that the problem is that the READ power is at fault. Typically what happens is that the unit can write all it wants until it needs to re-read the TOC and enter the new files into the directory. At which point it fails with a rather unexpected read error.

The way to get this read error to disappear is to increase the read power. However to do it is sort of counterintuitive... you have to DECREASE the measured laser power (which corresponds to the laser itself aging as you might expect) so that the circuit pumps out a bit more juice to drive it hard enough to read properly.

The key numbers on my RH910 were 14 and 12 at 9111 and 9112 respectively. I changed them to one less, 13 and 11, and perfecto! or Bob's your Uncle, as they say.

Just thought perhaps appending this comment here might help to put this into context. It seems that this problem has been with the 2nd generation units for a long time now.

Stephen

[THIS SUCKS]

i think its the laser.

[sfbp]

That is correct Did I not mention that?

Stephen

[sfbp]

I regret I have to update this thread too.

My previous deduction was WRONG. The completely undocumented OVERWRITE laser power is the problem. It can be set at location 9114. Contact me or respond for details.

This explains why it's possible to record a whole bunch of stuff but fail writing the TOC.

Stephen