Sony MZ-RH1 versus Edirol R-09HR

[TheRebelNC]

Hi all,

My first post, so please be gentle! I'm considering purchasing a Sony MZ-RH1 or an Edirol R-09HR, and was hoping that some kind soul could advise me on the relative merits of these machines. The Sony is about 80 UKP cheaper than the Edirol, which helps. I've read a lot of reviews on both machines, but haven't been able to find any direct comparisons (and A/B samples), and the reviews of the Sony are somewhat dated.

The main use will be recording; my typical subjects being wildlife, speech, and (occasional) music. I'm keen to have a flat and wide frequency response (aren't we all?!), especially since much of my music features deep bass vocals. I'll use PCM format mainly, and the Audio Technica ATR55 shotgun mic and Sony ECM-MS907 stereo mic. Low noise and high gain would be important since some of my subjects will be distant or just quiet.

In addition to recording, I'm hoping to use the Sony as an alternative to my (iRiver T60) MP3 player on the grounds of the Sony's (apparently) better fidelity, and the ability to change media so that I don't have to buy a new player whenever I've filled my existing one! Does anyone have an opinion on the quality of the Edirol as a /player/? Scarcity of MD discs should not be too problematic (I think) because I'll be archiving my recordings to computer, and my MP3 collection is not so large that I'll need an indefinite supply of discs.

Opinions greatly appreciated.

Cheers.

[Sony_Fan]

Despite it's great features and being the top of the line Minidisc player, the RH1 does not have Bass boost, Megabass or X-Bass. It's bass frequency is only 100hz, so I'm not sure if that will be good enough for you to listen to your deep bass vocal music.

[sfbp]

Rebel, don't listen to him. Your issue has nothing to do with bass boost.

Chris, please stop posting answers like this until you understand the answers just about everyone else on this board has given you explaining exactly what Megabass is and why a "soul" doesn't need it. The next one I will simply delete, no and's if's or but's.

Rebel: of course you came to a Minidisc board, so those here are most likely to want to recommend that which they have most experience with. The Edirol (IIRC) was tested and performed very poorly by comparison with the RH1. Someone here who has experience of both can probably put you straight.

The RH1's ability to record is superb throughout the frequency range. There are numerous reviews and someone here will be only too glad to point you to them. I'm in a bit of a panic right now so I leave it to them. I just wanted to make sure you don't listen to this nonsense by the first respondent.

Welcome to MDCF!

[bobt]

The RH ( or any Hi-MD) will serve you very well, an alternative might be to get your feet wet with an NH-700 or 800, see if you like it, then get on the bandwagon with the RH1. With any MD you get the 40elk remote is a must.

Good luck, and happy recording

Bob

[pata2001]

If you can wait until October, get the latest PCM-M10 by Sony.

Micro SDHC (</=/>(?)16GB), Micro Memory Stick removable flash memory cards, Mac, Windows & Linux compatible, drag & drop.

No moving parts, 4GB internal memory. Sony's legendary clean mic pre-amp, optional remote control.

Yes, I was going to post this too. This is awesome. 96khz/24bit recording to boot! And, MSRP is only $399, cheaper than the RH1 considering you're getting 4GB storage built-in already.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/19/sonys-p...uality-to-layp/

[Abby Normal]

I shouldn't assume anything, so in case you haven't checked out the Wildlife Sound Recording Society's review of the RH1, here it is:

Wildlife Sound Recording Society MZ-RH1 Review

Here is their main equipment index:

Wildlife Sound Recording Society Equipment Pages

That includes a review of the Edirol unit. The new Sony PCM recording the gents are pushing here isn't even released yet, but you have to admit it is pretty dapper. Feature-wise it appears to be on par with the Edirol. Maybe you can fire off an email to the folks at the WSRS website asking if they would do a review of the new Sony unit ASAP.

[Abby Normal]

And, MSRP is only $399, cheaper than the RH1 considering you're getting 4GB storage built-in already.

I'm not sure about that--you can still get an RH1 from pauseplaystop for ~$313 USD and a 5-pack of HiMD discs elsewhere for ~$30 USD. It's a great looking machine, though--and the standard memory upgrade capability is definitely a good direction for Sony.

[KJ_Palmer]

There's some discussion about the RH1 versus Edirol R-09HR (and R09) here on this taper forum. Looks like the RH1 has the cleaner mic input. Maybe the forthcoming PCM-M10 will too. Can't argue with the 24/96 recording though, and SDHC card capacity of the Edirol. I'll keep my R-0HR for general recording, but hope for something a bit better round the corner.

I can't really recommend the Edirol as a playback unit. No EQ, limited search/playback options (although at least it does have a shuffle option unlike many other recorders), no ID tag info (just filename). Battery life for playback is fairly poor too - up to 5.5 hours on 2 AA's, and fairly bulky (just pocketable) overall. Again, I'd hope the M10 would do better in this department.

[TheRebelNC]

Hi all,

Many thanks for the helpful replies. That link to the comparison was exactly what I was looking for, but my searches had failed to reveal it. I had come across the Wildlife Recording website before, and I'll give the site a plug here since I found it very informative. I'm currently borrowing a Sony MZ-R5ST and am quite impressed with it, which is why I thought I'd check out MD rather than go straight to a new solid state recorder. However, I was quite unaware of the PCM-M10; I'll check it out since it looks promising.

I prefer a flat response, so I never use megabass and EQ. In fact, I rejected the Olympus LS-10 because it seemed to have a roll-off below 100Hz, even when the low-cut filter was turned off! The comments about the Edirol reminded me to pay more attention to track ID features!

As an aside, I've read a number of posts on various sites claiming that 24/96 is something of a marketing gimmick on portable recorders because that level of sampling resolution is beyond the quality of the electronics found in this standard of recorder. Actually, 24/96 is probably overkill for my needs, and listeners to my recordings will not have players capable of that resolution. having said that, I'd be interested to hear any thoughts of how discernible this high resolution is for amateur applications? Of course, I appreciate that the answer will vary between subjects and listeners, so I'm just inviting 'generalised' comments.

Thanks again, everyone.

[ozpeter]

24/96... well, the 24 part has some use, the 96 part is unlikely to be worth your while as it enables high frequencies to be recorded which you can't hear in the first place, and which your mics and loudspeakers may not be able to capture and reproduce to any worthwhile extent.

24 bits enables you to under-record and still recover the full dynamic range in post-production, which can be useful.

However, a fairly recent large-scale listening test* failed to find a statistically significant group of people (expert and amateur) who could spot the difference between 24/96 and 16/44, so I wouldn't let the availability of 24/96 on a device sway your purchasing decision very much.

* http://drewdaniels.com/audible.pdf

[A440]

By the way, on the recording front, you're not getting a full and flat frequency response from either of your mics.

The ATR-55 frequency response is 70-18,000.

The ECM-MS907 is 100-15,000.

Especially since you mentioned bass vocals, you should seek out a mic with more bottom end.

[TheRebelNC]

Thanks for the heads-up a440. You're quite right about the mics' responses, but music will be an infrequent recording subject for me, and the MS907 seemed the best compromise within my budget since it seemed to have many favourable reviews. Without wishing to go too off-topic, can anyone suggest a mic of similar price that would be sensitive to frequencies down to about 50Hz, and be suitable for recording ambient/spread-out sounds in stereo? The ATR-55 will be used specifically for isolating subjects from ambient sounds, so its frequency response is less of a concern.

Thanks ozpeter for the article on 24/96 recordings. Very informative. Indeed, I searched further, and found two more articles along the same lines:

http://old.hfm-detmold.de/eti/projekte/dip..._paper_6086.pdf

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_spea...bx_testing2.htm

With respect to minidiscs, I only recently discovered that Sony dropped support for ATRAC a while back; this makes it harder to prefer the minidisc. Moreover, the non-standard battery is another drawback. Does anyone know if the RH1's battery is likely to become obsolete sooner rather than later?

Edited July 28, 2009 by TheRebelNC

[Abby Normal]

Does anyone know if the RH1's battery is likely to become obsolete sooner rather than later?

This question has been on my mind since I got my RH1 a few weeks ago. I've contemplated buying a few of the batteries and charging them up to about 40% and storing them someplace cold. I've researched how to keep NiMH batteries alive and that is the recommendation. They warn against freezing them, but that really only applies if you have a really good freezer. The temperature in your average consumer freezer doesn't get low enough to do the damage they are concerned with. So, personally, I would probably stick them in the freezer and thaw them out every few months to make sure they have their 40% charge. On the other hand, I've also considered that the RH1 would still be of use with a battery that can't hold a charge.

This is a bit off topic though. If people want to discuss it further it probably needs to be split off.

[sfbp]

Hmm, research on NiMH battereis won't help you much Otherwise sounding reasonable.

[A440]

There is no reason at this late date to deal with ATRAC at all. Not when you can get uncompressed recording and just drag-and-drop it onto your computer.

Recordings on any minidisc unit will be encrypted and will have to be uploaded through SonicStage. That's how Sony murdered minidisc.

Every so often SonicStage, for no discernible reason, decides it won't upload something--as it did with a disc I recorded last week, for which SonicStage simply wouldn't upload the first song from one group and the last song from another. Luckily it wasn't a crucial recording, but going through SonicStage is pointless if you are buying a new digital recorder. The RH1 was Sony's parting gift to longtime minidisc users--not a competitor to recorders to follow.

The Edirol's built-in mics are going to be fine for your uses, even though I don't love their input for external mics. The fact that you can drag-and-drop recordings from the Edirol--or just pop out the SD card and stick it in a slot or a reader--is a huge plus. If the Sony M10 retains the good parts of minidisc, like quiet mic inputs and track marking, and dumps the whole SonicStage encumbrance, it could be The One, even if Sony is still trying to force you to use its Micro Memory Stick, whatever that is, rather than SD or MicroSD.

If you're new to this, skip minidisc and don't try to combine recorder and player. Get a small mp3 player, like the Sansa Fuze or Clip, and get a digital recorder that does drag-and-drop.

Edited July 30, 2009 by A440

[tekdroid]

If the Sony M10 retains the good parts of minidisc, like quiet mic inputs and track marking, and dumps the whole SonicStage encumbrance, it could be The One, even if Sony is still trying to force you to use its Micro Memory Stick, whatever that is, rather than SD or MicroSD.

The PCM-M10 seems to take either Memory Stick Micro (M2) or MicroSD in its slot.

I am certain they won't go cheap and nasty on us, sound-wise; it would make no sense for their strategy in the recorder market.

[TheRebelNC]

Thanks for the thoughtful posts, A440 and tekdroid; sounds like good advice. I agree with A440's comments about the added layer of software and the redundancy of ATRAC. Your report of a SonicStage bug is not the first I've heard; it doesn't fill one with confidence, does it?! And if even an MD aficionado suggests that I skip MD, then I have to take notice!

Consistent with your suggestion, I already have an iRiver T60, but was thinking the MZ-RH1 could take its place for portable and 'expandable' use (especially given its line-out, allowing me to hook it up to my hi-fi). Perhaps I should instead get a FLAC player with a large capacity for my hi-fi, and retain the T60 for portable use.

Next step is to find out how the Sony and Edirol compare on their self-noise and gain characteristics. And still a major consideration is the fact that the Sony is between 1/3 (used but in perfect condition) and 2/3 (brand new) of the price of the Edirol. Even the 2/3 price leaves enough to fund both the ATR55 and ECM-MS907 (used).

It seems increasingly clear that, logistically at least, the Edirol is more appropriate for my needs. I'm in no great rush, so the PCM-M10 may be released before I make a purchase. That'll make things interesting!

[TheRebelNC]

Hi all,

In order to compare the noise and gain specs for the Edirol R-09HR and MZ-RH1, I contacted the author of the Wildlife Sound Recording Society's review of the Edirol, Mr Richard Mudhar. Via the society, Mr Mudhar kindly sent me the following details, which I'm posting here in case they're of use to others...

HIMD are more sensitive: -66dBu for 0dBFS relative to -47dBu for the Edirol.

Noise is similar: -116dBu for HiMD, -115dBu for the Edirol, the difference is less than the margin of error.

[A440]

HIMD are more sensitive: -66dBu for 0dBFS relative to -47dBu for the Edirol.

For some reason I hadn't noticed that you are doing wildlife recording. There, sensitivity is quite an important difference.

While that would seem to give the RH1 the advantage, minidisc has a serious disadvantage: It whirs. The physical disc has to spin at a high speed, and you can definitely hear it spinning up. I have tried recording crickets, frogs and birds with my MD and the solution I finally came up with was to put the unit indoors, close a door or window onto the mic cord, and then record. Out in the woods, you would have to swaddle it in something and put it at some distance from your mics--maybe in a backpack with the mics out in front of you. Otherwise you most definitely will hear the unit.

Either Edirol or RH1 (or the promised Sony unit) is going to sound significantly better than your T60. (I have a T30, which I've been fond of for its tiny size, but not for its sound quality.) But the Edirol has no moving parts; the RH1 does.

And I see from the review you linked to that my big beef about the Edirol R09 that I have used--noisy preamps for external mics--has been fixed in the new R09HR version so it's as good as Hi-MD preamps. Good for them. Now all Hi-MD has left going for it is the stealth factor--sometimes you don't want mics on the unit itself.

Here is a very down-to-earth comparison of basically everything available at the moment in flash recorders. They are right on the money on the ones I've tried, which leads me to trust them on the ones I haven't tried.

http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-reviews.html

(Parenthetically, those Wildlife guys are a little goofy. They reviewed the NH900 Hi-MD unit--which uploads digitally to a computer, the hugely significant advance of Hi-MD--by doing a realtime analogue headphone-jack recording. But I digress...)

Edited August 21, 2009 by A440

[sfbp]

I've never heard MD noise with a stealth recording of any kind. Presumably this is because the unit is in my pocket. Even with the ECM-DS70P directly attached, the whirring gets lost and deadened by the fabric, while the microphone sticks out over the (shirt) pocket. You'd be surprised.

And with a microphone extension, or SoundPro BMC3 on those quite long leads, you'll never have a problem. Worst case, you can put a hat or scarf over the RH1 to muffle it.

[A440]

I haven't had any noise problem recording music. But wildlife recording requires a really quiet unit. Obviously a long mic lead helps, and possibly putting the unit in a backpack with the mic out in front would work, but why bother when a silent unit is available?

[Giant_Rick]

I did some wildlife recordings with a Hi-MD recorder & good microphone, and never heard the mechanics of the MiniDisc unit... The length of the microphone cable is the key.

I used a Sony DS70P straight thru the Sony NH900 to record me playing the harmonica but I captured the noise of the MD spinnin', so I bought an extension cord.

Yes, it really makes the difference!

[A440]

Sure, newbies should wait for the PCM-M10; but those who already own a working Hi-MD recorder have no reason to stop using it...

Wiz, would I ever stop?

At this point I'm down to my 2d and possibly last MZ-NH700, since the much-traveled, much-used, occasionally dropped previous one recently developed the intermittent dropout problem, suggesting a dying head or rupturing ribbon cable, and I can no longer trust it. R.I.P.--it survived a lot, and it still uploads nicely.

Meanwhile the RH1 is still being babied.

By the time I've worn them both out I expect a thumbnail-sized recorder with 48/192 sampling, 1TB capacity, completely noiseless mic preamps, on-unit editing, a virtual display larger than the unit itself and visible by stealth in a dark concert hall, along with artificial intelligence processing to stabilize the recording even when the mics are accidentally moved, also removing the sounds of stray audience noise and conversation. Really, is that too much to ask?

[Strungup]

<!--quoteo(post=145901:date=Aug 23 2009, 03:45 AM:name=A440)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (A440 @ Aug 23 2009, 03:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=145901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wiz, would I <i>ever</i> stop?

[...]

By the time I've worn [MiniDisc] out I expect a thumbnail-sized recorder with 48/192 sampling, 1TB capacity, completely noiseless mic preamps, on-unit editing, a virtual display larger than the unit itself and visible by stealth in a dark concert hall, along with artificial intelligence processing to stabilize the recording even when the mics are accidentally moved, also removing the sounds of stray audience noise and conversation. Really, is that too much to ask?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><img src="http://forums.sonyinsider.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

I will get to work on that , ............ scavange some parts from these new dice sized MP3 players ( Case , Headphone jack , battery ) ,...... the new Micro SD cards are getting bigger in capacity smaller in size , so that should be the medium to use I think . Have to figure out how to steal the software from the RH1 . AVRIN !!! YOur help is needed