TypeR Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 Hi All, I personally think that an MD recorded on a Type-R atrac recorder through a digital input from a quality CD player sounds closer to the original CD than a 320k LAME MP3 file. Anyone agree with me? I just find the codec sounds more natural and the artefacts that are present arent as obvious as those with MP3. I think on a listening test I would find it far easier to pick the MP3 as being lossy than the MD. In an ideal world I would just buy lots of HiMD blanks, record in PCM and get an Onkyo himd deck, but in reality Im not a millionaire but I want to stick with the format Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippeC Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 Hi All, I personally think that an MD recorded on a Type-R atrac recorder through a digital input from a quality CD player sounds closer to the original CD than a 320k LAME MP3 file. Anyone agree with me? I just find the codec sounds more natural and the artefacts that are present arent as obvious as those with MP3. I think on a listening test I would find it far easier to pick the MP3 as being lossy than the MD. In an ideal world I would just buy lots of HiMD blanks, record in PCM and get an Onkyo himd deck, but in reality Im not a millionaire but I want to stick with the format Adam Try one thing : record in real time from your computer (optical out if you have) with Winamp/WMPlayer/iTunes but use the DFX audio enhancer plugin http://fxsound.com/ . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stargazer_tom1 Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 Try one thing : record in real time from your computer (optical out if you have) with Winamp/WMPlayer/iTunes but use the DFX audio enhancer plugin http://fxsound.com/ . What settings for DFX do you use/recommend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippeC Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 I just fix to 5 5 - 5 5 freeware version I did not study any other configuration but I suppose purists guys could do. On one of my computer, I have also a Creative Xi-Fi audio card witch had 3D plus another kind of processing to enhance greatly MP3 music. I notice that the freeware DFX make 3/4 of all the enhancing work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THIS SUCKS Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 i have the software and i wanted to warn everyone to lower the volume level on winamp to 75% because if you dont the level meters will clip after the software alters the sound when using the digital output from the pc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippeC Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 i have the software and i wanted to warn everyone to lower the volume level on winamp to 75% because if you dont the level meters will clip after the software alters the sound when using the digital output from the pc Yes the sound is louder than Winamp alone. I record in real time with Winamp + DFX in SP mode. Did not notice any distortion. What do you meen by "clip", cut ? jitter ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrencouch Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 Oddly enough I think My R90 records the best in SP mode compared to my N510 or even my deck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avrin Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 (edited) Realtime-recorded ATRAC Type-R is subjectively nicer than almost anything, possibly including the original CD. Just don't forget to disable Automatic Recording Level and set the unit to keep the original CD signal level so as to avoid unneeded rounding errors and related distortion (Manual Level 23 on most SONY portables is what you need). And NEVER use any enhancements. They may add some funny effects, but any processing of the original 16-bit digital signal adds distortion due to rounding errors. And you will want to avoid adding any distortion to the signal before compressing it to lossy, since the cleaner the signal, the less the losses (more bits can be allocated to the useful signal). And the quality of the CD player is not important at all, as long as it outputs unchanged signal (this can be easily determined by trackmarks present in it). So, a $30 Chinese plastic toy will give you same results as a $50000 audiophile delight. Edited December 8, 2009 by Avrin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
md user Posted January 9, 2010 Report Share Posted January 9, 2010 Realtime-recorded ATRAC Type-R is subjectively nicer than almost anything, possibly including the original CD. Just don't forget to disable Automatic Recording Level and set the unit to keep the original CD signal level so as to avoid unneeded rounding errors and related distortion (Manual Level 23 on most SONY portables is what you need). .... An older thread, I know, but since I'm new to the forum, and going thru' to get knowledge ... -> You comment on adjusting the record level to avoid rounding errors/distortion: what criteria are you using to know when rounding errors occur? I mean, as long as it doesn't clip, isn't that good enough? Or do I need to think about 'proportioning' i.e. signal level chosen divided by the original signal level ... [ if I ever understood what all that meant ] Thanks. mdmad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avrin Posted January 9, 2010 Report Share Posted January 9, 2010 Rounding errors are introduced by any change of the digital signal (except doubling the amplitude in a decent program, if headroom allows). Avoiding clipping is obviously not enough. Level 23 in SONY portables keeps the original signal level without introducing rounding errors, but level 22 or 24 does introduce them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
md user Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 Rounding errors are introduced by any change of the digital signal (except doubling the amplitude in a decent program, if headroom allows). Avoiding clipping is obviously not enough. Level 23 in SONY portables keeps the original signal level without introducing rounding errors, but level 22 or 24 does introduce them. Right. So, do I need to test EACH record level (say 20,21,22,23 ...30) and compare? And what, specifically, do I listen for as evidence of rounding error? Particular artifacts? (or just a general clarity improvement?) Also, once established, this level should be good for all input tracks, correct? [i.e. MD-device specific not track specific?] Thanks. mdmad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
md user Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 Hi All, I personally think that an MD recorded on a Type-R atrac recorder through a digital input from a quality CD player sounds closer to the original CD than a 320k LAME MP3 file ... Adam Just read this (see below) on the HydrogenAudio website [website here]. I notice that the highest setting, on version 3.98.2 of LAME is 320CBR. Also, that VBR is not usually expected to be above 260kbps. If atrac is 292kbps SP, then both projects (mp3 and ATRAC), considered ~300kbps a good ratio of quality-for-size at the upper-end of the quality scale. According to the chart in this link: Chart Here ... the quality is at this bitrate is [subjectively] ~90% to the original. I guess that Sony (et al), DID optimise the ATRAC codec for the 292CBR rate by 2003. Lame can really only be expected to achieve similar results if this presumption is true - unless they have had a technological advancement (in deciding the best 4/5 of audio data NOT to put into that 300kbps). In any case, to my ears, I'm really enjoying the music from MDs, and the chase for 'audio codec perfection' is not important ... otherwise I'd buy an expensive portable CD player instead - naah!, an expensive SACD player instead. Just another 2cents worth ... The ironic thing is ... more and more audio I get to download/record is at 192kbps or less! [internet radio, DAB, DVB-T]. Makes me worry the less ... Regards to you all. mdmad. =========================================================================== REFS =========================================================================== Bitrate overview (mostly based on LAME 3.98.2 results) Switch Preset Target Kbit/s Bitrate range kbit/s -b 320 --preset insane 320 320 CBR -V 0 --preset fast extreme 245 220...260 -V 1 225 190...250 -V 2 --preset fast standard 190 170...210 -V 3 175 150...195 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerchy Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Since this post is talking about Type-R quality, I'm rather dissapointed by the quality of LP4 recordings. I'm using the normal mode since my first deck (bought back in 1994) and have no intension using anything else but the other day I did a little comparison and LP4 simply doesn't sound clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfbp Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Seems like I had the same perception of LP4. But there are two things which may change your mind, 1. Playback with Type-S (the recording is still Type-R so Type-S enhances playback) chip. Check your deck or portable. 2. Playback from optical out into a good receiver which has optical inputs. You may be surprised. The other thing which will also surprise you is that HiMD machines generally do a great job of playing back LP2 and LP4, either on true NetMD disks, or on HiMD formatted disks where the MDLP has been transferred there from the computer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerchy Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Thanks for your input. The deck I'm using (JA333ES) supports Type-R only. I might try the SPDIF out - the deck is also connected to SDP-EP9ES sound processor which has digital inputs but I doubt that there will be an improvement. I still believe for a decent sound stereo mode is neccessary. LP4 may sound good on some systems ... but I would use it for dialogs only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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