Copying MD to computer hard drive

[Kesha]

I have an old minidisc player that is not working anymore, and a disc is inside of this player that I am not even sure how to take out. Any recommendations will be greatly appreciated.

After I take that disc out of that player I would have to copy it to my computer hard drive.

I just found out that some MD players have USB outputs, and weirdly enough some players can only download through the USB ports, not upload, but most of them do both: uploading and downloading.

Question: If I find a player that will be able to transfer data through USB port into the computer, what format it will be transferred in and what format is it recorded on the disc in, and how exactly can such transfer from a disc to the computer hard drive be done?

Thank you.

[NGY]

Can you share the make and model? Would help to figure out, how to release the disc. There are many, many MD players/recorders - decks, walkmans, etc., with different mechanisms.

Success of the MD to PC transfer: it depends on how that disc was originally recorded/formatted. If it was a legacy MD recording (ATRAC audio), only an MZ-RH1 can transfer the content from the disc to the PC. If it was formatted as a HiMD disc, a couple of HiMD models can do the transfer (audio or data). (If it was a data MD disc by any chance, it would need a dedicated data MD player/recorder.)

File format on the PC: you may want to refer to the SonicStage manual for possibilites (many) - you would need that software anyhow, for the transfer.

[Kesha]

Thank you for your reply.

The model of my MD recorder is MDS 302, I believe it is one of the first ones.

Recording was done on this device by simply pressing the record button and resulted in whatever format it could.

What players could read that format and transfer the data through its USB output?

And what software can I use to capture the disc content on PC, that SonicStage that you mentioned?

Thank you.

[NGY]

2 hours ago, Kesha said:

What players could read that format and transfer the data through its USB output?

And what software can I use to capture the disc content on PC, that SonicStage that you mentioned?

I am afraid, the only device that can transfer this audio via USB is the MZ-RH1. And for that SonicStage is required (available from the download section of the forum).

I will look into the MDS-JE302's service manual, to figure out how can a stuck disc be released. Yes, it is one of the first devices, and has one of the problematic mechanisms. The disc can definitely be removed, the question is just how much must the device be stripped down.

One thought, without any intention of disappointing you: unless the audio on that stuck disc is something a unique recording like a live event or so, it may not be worth to take all the hassle of removing a disc, finding an MZ-RH1, installing SonicStage (can be a real pain, depending on the OS), and so on. Might be easier and faster to look for that music on the net, and download it. And it is not only the trouble, but also the sound quality - that deck had ATRAC 3, a very early version, with known limitations and artifacts.

[Kesha]

Thank you for your reply.

Yes, the recording on that disc is unique, this is the only way to get it.

I looked up the MZ-RH1, it is a very expensive one, and to my surprise it is PORTABLE! Is it the most advanced one that could do the USB transfer that no other player can?

And once the SonicStage is installed and the MZ-RH1 is connected to the computer, will I see the list of all songs and simply drag and drop it, like a typical USB device, or there will be some other conversion involved in that process?

Thank you.

[Kesha]

Hi guys,

I really need to know if the model MZ-RH1 is the only one that I can capture my music from minidisc to the hard drive, and how technically it could be done.

Thank you.

[NGY]

1 hour ago, Kesha said:

I really need to know if the model MZ-RH1 is the only one that I can capture my music from minidisc to the hard drive

Yes, it is (given the conditions and disc you described).

 

1 hour ago, Kesha said:

and how technically it could be done.

(As mentioned before) you may want to consult the SonicStage user manual (as well as the MZ-RH1 manual).

[Kesha]

Hey NGY,

thank you so much for your replies.

What exactly feature MZ-RH1 has that no other MD players have?

Thank you.

[NGY]

4 hours ago, Kesha said:

What exactly feature MZ-RH1 has that no other MD players have?

"Full backward compatability with std-MD system -- records SP/Mono/LP2/LP4 format audio to std-MD discs and uploads std-MD recordings to PC in PCM, Hi-SP or ATRAC3 format audio files. Uploading is in no way restricted (unlimited uploads of mic, line and digital recordings are permitted)" [Quoted from here]

Sony had always been making all efforts to restrict copying digitally recorded audio, and part of this they put limitations everywhere, on what and how could be copied. Although several HiMD recorders can play standard MD discs, only the MZ-RH1 is enabled to copy such discs to the PC.

[sfbp]

There IS another way to get data off that disk. You can play it back through the optical out of a deck into a computer that will accept the optical input. This means a sound card in your pc which you might have to add. This will allow you to record in whatever format you feel like, since what is transmitted by optical is the standard 16-bit (or so) WAV format like a CD.

[NGY]

2 hours ago, sfbp said:

There IS another way to get data off that disk. You can play it back through the optical out of a deck into a computer

Yes, this is a way to make a copy of an audio content. I did not go this route, as I had the belief the OP wanted to "read that format and transfer the data through its USB output".

Few  things might be worth to mention:

- making a copy via the digital audio output (should that be coaxial or optical) of a MD deck to a PC soundcard (or another MD recorder) will result a similar, but not exact copy. The digital signal on the optical (coaxial) output is a decompressed ATRAC audio, not the original ATRAC data. The copy on the PC will suffer another compression, whatever the format will be. The difference might well be marginal or even unnoticeable, I just wanted to make a note this is not a real transfer in the digital domain.

- a copy via the digital output is only possible, if either 1) the original recorded material is a first generation digital recording, or 2) the receiving PC sound card can eliminate SCMS.

- if the aim is just to save the audio content of the original disc whatever it takes (and sound quality is at second priority), then even a simple analogue copy is possible, once the disc is released and is found readable by another MD player device.

[sfbp]

Note: most PC sound cards don't seem to care about SCMS.

I would take the optical transfer instead of analogue any day of the week.

[NGY]

14 minutes ago, sfbp said:

I would take the optical transfer instead of analogue any day of the week.

Agreed.

[sfbp]

20 hours ago, Kesha said:

Hi guys,

I really need to know if the model MZ-RH1 is the only one that I can capture my music from minidisc to the hard drive, and how technically it could be done.

Thank you.

oops, I forgot one more way. If you can get an HHB Portadisc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HHB-Portadisc-MDP500-Professional-Minidisc-Field-Record-/120834359500

This device DOES output a USB stream directly. Standard Play (SP) only, but that's what you have. Probably overkill unless your recording is VERY special.

[PhilippeC]

Or send a parcel to a member of this forum who have a Sony MZ-RH1 (M200), preferably in the same country than you. After, you just need to download the files from Dropbox or similar.

[Kesha]

Hey, guys, seriously.. Thank you!

The thing is that it is an original recording. I was mixing to MD from a multichannel, and then replicating to compact cassettes, about 22 years ago.

And this is the only copy left, so, I would be afraid to mail it, just in case it can get lost in mail.

So far Portadisc look like the best solution. Will it read the format that the very first MD recorders were recording (whatever format it was)?

And what is the Standard Play, an opposite to some "Long play"?

And to recognize the USB input I would still need that SonicStage?

And what format wil I get it from the SonicStage: wav?

Thank you.

[philippeb]

On 5/14/2017 at 6:42 AM, Kesha said:

Hey, guys, seriously.. Thank you!

The thing is that it is an original recording. I was mixing to MD from a multichannel, and then replicating to compact cassettes, about 22 years ago.

And this is the only copy left, so, I would be afraid to mail it, just in case it can get lost in mail.

So far Portadisc look like the best solution. Will it read the format that the very first MD recorders were recording (whatever format it was)?

And what is the Standard Play, an opposite to some "Long play"?

And to recognize the USB input I would still need that SonicStage?

And what format wil I get it from the SonicStage: wav?

Thank you.

1. Yes, the Portadisc will read any minidisc recorded in MONO or SP by your MDS-302.

2. The MDS-302 can only record in MONO, or SP, that stands for STEREO, in this case.

3. Recording via USB does not require SonicStage, but any free software like Audacity.

4. Yes, Audacity (or any equivalent software) will export the recordings to WAV.

[Kesha]

Ok, I bought Portadisc, what should I do with it now?

Will it be recognized as an external drive and I can simply drag and drop all the wav files?

[PhilippeC]

http://www.minidisc.org/hhb_mdp500_manual.pdf

[Kesha]

Thank you for your reply.

The manual is interesting, but maybe I can get some simple recomendation on how to quickly copy it, too?

[PhilippeC]

I do not have or seen it.

sfbp (Stephen) or philippeb will be more helpful than me. Technically speaking, this is sure.

 

[Kesha]

Thank you. I hope they will reply soon.

[sfbp]

Philippeb is your man. I've not used this method of MD transcription and I have never had a Portadisc in my hands. Sorry.

Having said that, you will need a piece of software that records WAV input.

Possible candidates:

- Audacity/CoolEdit96/CoolEdit2000 (all the same, different versions)

- Windows Recorder (not sure about XP and later, but the W98 and W2K systems both have a program called WAVEREC.EXE included)

- Sound Forge 9 (a copy comes free with many digital devices from Sony) or 10

- VLC (which has a recording function) or ffmpeg (both based on same technology).

All of these can use the Windows Mixer, however often a superior sound card will have its own drivers and mixer which allows tweaking the sound.

 

[philippeb]

Connect the usb  port (on the right side of the portadisc) to a usb port of the computer with a USB audio cable.

On the computer, use the audio software of your choice (I use Audacity), select USB Audio as audio input device.

On the portadisc, start playing. On the computer, start recording or record pause, and set the correct recording level.

When the fecording level is correctly set on computer, stop the portadisc. Start recording for good on the computer, star playing on the portadisc.

Digital transfer is made in real time. At the end of the transfer, stop recording on the computer, and save your recording, possibly converting it to the format of your choice, as proposed by the software.

[Kesha]

Thank you for your reply, BUT...

What you described, isn't it the same kind of thing as recording through digital coaxial or optical audio connection?

I mean, this is not exactly the same recording as on the MD, not exactly the same file copied, but re recorded, even with a different level.

As NGY wrote in the message # 11 of this topic:

"making a copy via the digital audio output (should that be coaxial or optical) of a MD deck to a PC soundcard (or another MD recorder) will result a similar, but not exact copy. The digital signal on the optical (coaxial) output is a decompressed ATRAC audio, not the original ATRAC data. The copy on the PC will suffer another compression, whatever the format will be."

In what way this Portadisc copy will be different than the ones described above?

I bot that unreasonably expensive Portadisc because it was describe as the only device that will preserve the file the way it is on the disc. Did it turn out to be not the case or I am missing the main point about the difference?

Please advise.

Thank you.

[sfbp]

You did miss the point. There is NO way to get the encoded data (for original SP format of minidisc) off an MD, unless you write the software yourself and replace the chips in the device ***. The hardware in the MD will produce the CD-format data which it then sends out the optical channel or coax cable.

For what it's worth, there is NO SUCH THING as a perfect copy of an audio CD, either (ignore all the so-called experts who bleat on about "exact copy"). It's always a matter of how good is the reader, how many passes are made over the data, and exactly how the dithering is applied. CDs are actually about 20 bits in resolution, but we only see 16 bits when we play them (or copy them digitally). This may account for the fact that a "good" copy to MD often sounds better than the original CD, depending of course on exactly how the original is reproduced.

So an MD copy is as good as it gets, and in my experience you'd have to copy 3 or 4 times (may be more) before you lost any of the clarity.

Having said that, there are formats which are reproduced bit-for-bit (and can be saved as files) when you lift them off the MD. MDLP formats (LP2,132k and LP4,66k) are of this kind. So are all the Hi-MD formats (eg Hi-SP, 256k). But there is no accepted equivalent to MD-SP format on hard disk because there is no hardware commonly available that will actually read it except for MD units made by Sony and others. It's probably possible to tweak NetMD units into transmitting that form to a computer but you will still have a mammoth problem, at least in part (we think) because of copyright agreements between Sony and Dolby which will never be violated.

There IS a way to get an exact digital copy of an MD, It's called the MDS-W1 dual MD deck. But you only get another MD

*** Actually there are indications it may be possible on some units to get the raw data through an undocumented feature

[Kesha]

Hi guys,

could anyone please let me know how can I capture my files from a minidisc using a Portadisc without "re recording" the sound, just digitally capturing the file that is on the minidisc, to preserve its quality the way it is on the minidisc, not the 2nd generation recording like it would have been with a digital coaxial or optical.

Thank you.

[sfbp]

There is no such word as "just". Hopeless word, it merely hides the actual technical difficulties.

WHAT YOU WANT CAN NOT BE DONE.

End of. Sorry.

[Kesha]

I haven't noticed that the previous reply was on the next page. Missed it. Sorry.

Now, back to "There IS a way to get an exact digital copy of an MD, It's called the MDS-W1 dual MD deck. But you only get another MD

*** Actually there are indications it may be possible on some units to get the raw data through an undocumented feature"

So, I should buy this MDS W1 (one or two?) and hack it somehow?

Thank you.

[PhilippeC]

Kesha, it is time to use your HBB Portadisc to record in real time your MD to your computer. The sound will be as close as possible for this kind of recording, VERY close to the original. HBB Portadisc is a professional unit so don't worry with the result.

Only MZ-RH1 can do exactly what you want, transferring the tracks to WAV files and as you record this MD 20 years ago and probably at this time not with vintage professional high-end tools, I doubt you would be able to notice a difference.

[philippeb]

5 hours ago, Kesha said:

So, I should buy this MDS W1 (one or two?) and hack it somehow?

No. The W1 will not help (hacked or not). The HHB is your friend.

Trust us, follow the procedure we gave you, and you will not regret your purchase.

You will get the best computer copies of your legacy recordings.

[bluecrab]

So how exactly do you record MD > Computer in real time from a legacy MD deck? Is there a device that will take S/PDIF output and send it via USB? I don't think I have optical or coax in on my computer. Sonic Stage is no help because it will not let you upload digitally recorded files. (I am aware of the Hi-MD exception. I do not have Hi-MD gear and don't expect to.)

 

[PhilippeC]

16 hours ago, bluecrab said:

So how exactly do you record MD > Computer in real time from a legacy MD deck? Is there a device that will take S/PDIF output and send it via USB? I don't think I have optical or coax in on my computer. Sonic Stage is no help because it will not let you upload digitally recorded files. (I am aware of the Hi-MD exception. I do not have Hi-MD gear and don't expect to.)

 

bluecrab,  Kesha bought a HBB Portadisc to do that (professional unit,  USB connection). With a deck with an optical out, this is also possible put you need to evade copyright protection (I don't clearly know how to do that but sure it has been discussed hundred of times). Most of the time the copy will be analogic.

[Kesha]

Do they put that protection on every disc? I want to copy my own music, is it gonna be protected anyway?

[philippeb]

1 hour ago, Kesha said:

Do they put that protection on every disc? I want to copy my own music, is it gonna be protected anyway?

The HHB will transfer all legacy md tracks via usb audio, and the computer files created by Audacity (or other recording software) will not be copy-protected.

[PhilippeC]

Just put the protection on your orginal MD during recording

[lukpac]

On 6/15/2017 at 4:24 AM, sfbp said:

You did miss the point. There is NO way to get the encoded data (for original SP format of minidisc) off an MD, unless you write the software yourself and replace the chips in the device ***. The hardware in the MD will produce the CD-format data which it then sends out the optical channel or coax cable.

For what it's worth, there is NO SUCH THING as a perfect copy of an audio CD, either (ignore all the so-called experts who bleat on about "exact copy"). It's always a matter of how good is the reader, how many passes are made over the data, and exactly how the dithering is applied. CDs are actually about 20 bits in resolution, but we only see 16 bits when we play them (or copy them digitally). This may account for the fact that a "good" copy to MD often sounds better than the original CD, depending of course on exactly how the original is reproduced.

So an MD copy is as good as it gets, and in my experience you'd have to copy 3 or 4 times (may be more) before you lost any of the clarity.

Having said that, there are formats which are reproduced bit-for-bit (and can be saved as files) when you lift them off the MD. MDLP formats (LP2,132k and LP4,66k) are of this kind. So are all the Hi-MD formats (eg Hi-SP, 256k). But there is no accepted equivalent to MD-SP format on hard disk because there is no hardware commonly available that will actually read it except for MD units made by Sony and others. It's probably possible to tweak NetMD units into transmitting that form to a computer but you will still have a mammoth problem, at least in part (we think) because of copyright agreements between Sony and Dolby which will never be violated.

There IS a way to get an exact digital copy of an MD, It's called the MDS-W1 dual MD deck. But you only get another MD

*** Actually there are indications it may be possible on some units to get the raw data through an undocumented feature

Stumbling upon this late, but FYI, that isn't true at all about audio CDs. CDs are 16 bits, period, and it is incredibly easy to get a perfect copy of the data. Multiple passes can be used to verify the read is correct, but with a good reader and a CD that isn't damaged, they aren't necessary. And dither isn't a factor.

[lukpac]

Also...it's possible to get SP/ATRAC1 off natively. Just not with SonicStage, which transcodes to ATRAC3plus.

https://www.w00fer.nl/blog/atrac1-upload-to-pc-and-playback-in-vlc/

[sfbp]

6 hours ago, lukpac said:

Stumbling upon this late, but FYI, that isn't true at all about audio CDs. CDs are 16 bits, period, and it is incredibly easy to get a perfect copy of the data. Multiple passes can be used to verify the read is correct, but with a good reader and a CD that isn't damaged, they aren't necessary. And dither isn't a factor.

That may be, but in practice it doesn't seem to work that well. How else do you explain Sony providing in SS different qualities of ripping?

[sfbp]

3 hours ago, lukpac said:

Also...it's possible to get SP/ATRAC1 off natively. Just not with SonicStage, which transcodes to ATRAC3plus.

https://www.w00fer.nl/blog/atrac1-upload-to-pc-and-playback-in-vlc/

Atrac3+ is actually a much better codec. The fact that "original SP" seems to give a cleaner sound than an "original CD" is due to some clever tweaks in the design of ATRAC, which actually alters the supposedly 16 bit data off the disk by playing with oversampling just like good CD players do. A combination of upsampling and oversampling, followed by re-coding into ATRAC's logarithmic format. There's little difference (minor transformation) between ATRAC and ATRAC3+ in terms of that - both are 24-bit formats.