Will Sony fight with iPod or ZUNE?

[lecram1971]

Is there any rumor of a new NW-anything???

I like Atrac because sounds great and the gapless, but IPOD keeps given better device than Sony and now will come ZUNE from Microsoft, wich I think may be gapless if Windows Media Player can play WMA gapless why the device can´t (this is what I think, nothing confirm yet).

If someone knows anything please tell it.

[cauldron]

A lot of software can play gapless, but their matching portable player can't. iTunes can be gapless if you tell it to

I think a lot of people focus too much on shallow comparisons, but if they never read other people's opinions or words from "experts", they might be perfectly happy with what they've got. Personally, I don't agree the iPods are better devices

[pata2001]

iTunes cannot play anything gapless, and cross-fade != gapless. iPods got better the moment rockbox worked on them, enabling gapless playback. I doubt zune will be gapless.

As for Sony, they cannot even make a unicode software. As I've said many times, until Sony cut their music/movie industry arms off, they won't be able to release any competition for the ipod.

[Ishiyoshi]

Is there any rumor of a new NW-anything???

If someone knows anything please tell it.

If it's still on schedule, there will be something for HDD based 1st QT 2007. Keep watch for official news at our main blog.

[Beethovenian]

Sad how Sony seems to be getting hit from all sides lately, considering also the battery recall. I wish they had something good in the wings, but apparently things won't change much for the next year. The Zune seems to be just a souped-up Gigabeat S, and if that's really the case, it won't be gapless. I had some hopes. So, that would mean Sony will continue being the only gapless option, and the way Sony is going, I doubt they'll improve much on the A series, and that is bad. Marketing-wise, it wouldn't make a dent in the iPod. Maybe Sony should just drop the whole Walkman brand and try something more daring. I know they invested a lot in it, but it just doesn't catch anymore. People think of something old, not an iPod (or Zune) competitor. Just don't drop Atrac. Somebody has to offer gapless playback. This is getting ridiculous.

And I agree with Pata: iTunes is not gapless. Crossfade can mimic reasonably well, but that depends on the music. With some, the gap will be noticeable regardless of the value you use for the crossfade.

[pata2001]

Somebody has to offer gapless playback. This is getting ridiculous.

There's iPod + Rockbox, and you don't have to use Atrac to boot. Which I think there is less and less reason to go Sony, except for the form factor.

[b0ng0]

Well personally I don't think iPods are better devices. I have seen and used many MP3 players including the Creative Zen V:M. I can safely say my A3000 is much better than most players out there in the same range.

iPods have crappy battery life, they cut corners on production and generally make cheap but nice looking (if you're a kid or a student) MP3 players.

Creative is just another alternative to iPod but they crash a fair amount (from the 10 minutes I used a zen v: m it crashed twice ).

Although Sony do need to buck up, and get serious, their current range is some of the best out there if you are just looking for something that will play music and do it well. Sure Sonicstage sucks ass, but if like me you've been using it for your Net MD for the past 5 or so years, you realise it's not really that big a deal.

Just my thoughts

[Ascariss]

If it's still on schedule, there will be something for HDD based 1st QT 2007. Keep watch for official news at our main blog.

a bit late as always from sony, will most likely be a generation behind the products on the market by then.

[Dinko]

will most likely be a generation behind the products on the market by then.

A generation, or two?

By the time they announce it, it will be a generation behind. By the time they release it three months later, it will be 1.5 generations behind.

[Beethovenian]

There's iPod + Rockbox, and you don't have to use Atrac to boot. Which I think there is less and less reason to go Sony, except for the form factor.

Rockbox is an interesting proposition, but I've been somehow reluctant to try it. Maybe it's because I don't like the iPod as a device itself, find it bland, repetitive, and the other Rockbox options are even less appealing (my favourite player, in terms of design, is the Gigabeat S, but Rockbox would probably kill its already poor battery life). But I may consider in the future (will have to, if Sony decides to abandon Atrac in favour of AAC).

As for the A series, I think it shows some interesting ideas in the navigation department, but it's too big for its capacity and too slow to operate. RAM is cheap enough. Sony should have eliminated already those stupid accessing times to the database every time you want to do something. And the screen is so damn impossible to read in this summer sunnier days...

[pata2001]

Rockbox is an interesting proposition, but I've been somehow reluctant to try it. Maybe it's because I don't like the iPod as a device itself, find it bland, repetitive, and the other Rockbox options are even less appealing (my favourite player, in terms of design, is the Gigabeat S, but Rockbox would probably kill its already poor battery life). But I may consider in the future (will have to, if Sony decides to abandon Atrac in favour of AAC).

If the device is flash based, using rockbox would still yield decent battery life. My only beef with iPod is no tactile buttons for volume (except for the shuffle, but no rocbkox for shuffle), which is why I still prefer Sony flash players.

Looks like the Zune is just an in-house branded (MS) PMC device. It might be interesting if MS can pull off the wifi and buying tracks wirelessly, but I doubt it. If it's a PMC, then its video support will be only for WMV, and only MTP device (only works with winXP). I'll take Cowon's A2 anytime.

[cauldron]

Remember that "crossfade" can be set to zero seconds

[Beethovenian]

Crossfade to zero doesn't equal perfect gaplessness in iTunes. I've tried with many different classical pieces, and the transition is noticeable. Sometimes there's a little click, sometimes it chews parts of the music and makes the transition awkward. It sounds perfectly fine for most pop music, but it's not gapless, unfortunately.

[JSP62]

There are a lot of players now in the arena with real nice models.

Samsung has a nice black one with 30GB (I think) to compete with the iPod Nano

MS's Zune which has alot of buzz

Sandisk just came out with the largest flash mem based player. 80GB I believe and the model looks sleek

Creative has a nice line up of models that I find interesting.

And of course as well know and realize, Sony is not keeping up. Their new DAP model which someone said is set for release in 07, will be too late in the market. PS3 is a funny story. They will end up having to take a hit and drop prices of the unit in order to compete with 360 & Wii. 2 strikes =p

Of course my Vaio Pocket is keeping me satisfied. Spending only $150 + $50 for a new battery to have 40GB of space for my music and LCD screen is by far a deal better than buying anew. BUT these new models coming out are looking real go-go ga-ga.....meaning I could be persuaded.

Looking ahead, the next focus will be MP3 / phones. Verizon has come out with the "Chocolate" phone produced by LG, which doubles as a phone and a MP3 player M$ is breaking ground to create the ZUNE which will be wi-Fi enabled. It's a game not only about music playing, it;s now a race of multi-tasking devices.

[pata2001]

Remember that "crossfade" can be set to zero seconds

As I said, crossfade != gapless. iTunes cannot play anything gaplessly, not even AAC. Even foobar can play AAC gaplessly.

[DSP]

I tink sony will fight the Zune. I'm not shure how, but they'll shure go and try to beat them!

I personally think Microsoft won't have a big succes with the Zune because of some serious lack of experience imho. Sony created this market segment somehow and the only thing aplle did is jumping in on the right moment with the right solution while the big S was sleeping.

I think sony MUST stick to the walkman brand! it's so well-known. they just have to boost it's image.

If sony only could open up the atrac format! That would be a succes I think (imagine an ipod with atrac ).

I'm personally not a fan of color screens in DAP's, but I think, since people are demanding colour screens, sony woul be smart if they put a very neath OLED colour screen in it's new device. Put in video and foto support, the icon based menu of the nw-a series and a good battery and sony would be one step closer to beating apple. If they get rid of the SonicStage software (drag&drop for example), very wide format/codec support (like AVC, MP4, AVI, DIVx, JPG, BMP, PNG, MP3, AAC, OGG, and offcourse atrac) and come up with an attractive name (not nw-a1000 anymore but something like 'walkman Zero', zero indicating a new start for walkman), combine that with an super stylish design with use of materials like metal and magnesium and carbon and stuff like that and they'll blow the ipod away!

but I'm afraid that's something I can only dream of..

[Ascariss]

I wouldn't get your hopes up with anything amazing from sony, their music arm is what is preventing their mp3 player line from being amazing, since copyright issues are one of the issues.

the zune will not make a huge impact on apple's sales and although it should be a good mp3 player. sony may have created the market but that doesn't mean they will be able to dominate it again.

I already posted what the chip in the nw series can do but sony decided against the options. instead they released a mediocre product with limited options and great sound quality, This doesn't sell a mp3 player and with the hdd units not being sold in the US, a major market, it only shows what sony thought of the nw hdd units, not highly.

the name should be sinple, sony walkman, nothing more nothing less, why complcate things with additional #s and letters? pointless.

A colour screen, ease of navigation, easy transfer and control music from pc to device, good sound quality, good battery life, easy playlists, on the go playlists, and multiple codec and format support. Video is sadly a must now for hdd type of mp3 players, since most the major brands have that ability.

sandisk already has an 8 gig flash player coming this fall! creative has a 60 gig visionM coming as well and sony is dishing out crappy flash players up to 2 gigs and poor software, Sure if the flash players supported more formats and possibly video, sony could have something there, but sadly nope.

It takes a long time to get up to the #1 spot in the mp3 biz and keeping it takes new products with great new features ahead of the compeition. What did sony has that was great in the current HDD units? artist link which rarely worked and was just worthless garbage, a playlist that ranks which songs you play the most and then "predicts" what you want to hear, uhm no, that is just crap as well. Let's see a slow start up and slower navigation.

bah, the NW series will most likely be my last sony mp3 player for a long time, since if sony wants to beat the competition they need to release for the christmas season no Q1 2007!

perhaps once people stop buying sony's crappy mp3 players, they will realize they need to revamp the line and give it a major makeover.

[DSP]

yes, you're right. but my point is that sony devices are decent enough for many people, but not if they wanna get on the top. They have the knowlegde and the abi;ities to make a killer-product, but why they don't do it? I have no Idea...

something like a combi of a PSP and a walkman... perhaps

[Beethovenian]

Wow, Ascariss, I hadn't noticed this change of heart, you used to be so much more positive on Sony. It just shows how Sony is way behind the curve. So sad. The only thing that's keeping me with Sony is gapless playback, and the fact that I dislike the available Rockbox options (no iPod for me). And I don't even have a big problem with SonicStage. Like its interface better than iTunes's, actually (I still don't see what's great about iTunes; I think WMP 11 has a much better interface). But all the features they added for the A series just bother me. ArtistLink is a useless gimmick, and having a Favourites playlist that can only be updated after connecting to the computer is silly. I also concluded I don't like these OLED screens. Give me a regular LCD with higher resolution that displays more lines and more characters per line and can be read in sunlight anytime.

One thing to make me hopeful is that Archos says its new generation 4 of players are truly gapless. If that's confirmed, I'll consider seriously going for one of those. It may also suggest that manufacturers are starting to get the grips on the gapless issue, and who knows, maybe more players will come that manage to avoid those pauses.

I wish Sony surprised us with something great, though. But don't have hopes. Oh, and I think Sony should ditch the Walkman brand. It doesn't work anymore. People don't want Walkmans, they want something new, cooler.

[Ascariss]

Beethovenian, it saddens me when a conpany like sony is behind much smaller firms such as apple and creative.

I have no complaints about the software, Connect player is great and I would rather use that than sonicstage and find it much easier than itunes. the hardware is the problem. Ya I agree on the LCD, give me a colour one than OLED any day, there are not many sunny days in vancouver, but sometimes in normal light it's almost impossible to read the screen.

sony came too late to the mp3 player market, instead opting for the minidisc. Perhaps if sony would persued flash and hdd players from the start when they just began coming out, maybe we wouldn't ba having this discussion.

[JSP62]

.....

perhaps once people stop buying sony's crappy mp3 players, they will realize they need to revamp the line and give it a major makeover.....

. . . .

[lindijones]

Hello!!

I think WALKMAN is the perfect brand! They have to keep it!

Everything was said in this thread so far. They have to get color screens in their players. If we like it or not!

And these bullsxxxt waiting times after every press on a HD player has to be corrected.

Flash memory is the coolest thing if more than 8GB!

Please SONY don´t give up!!! Keep Atrac because of Gapless or use ogg vorbis?

Give your players the power back!!!! If it supports MP3 than it also could support ogg vorbis...

COME ON!!!

Apple will possibly release new iPods today!!

WHERE ARE YOU????

Tom,

who is still thinking about to change to iPod.

[DSP]

I think sony and the walkman brand have much potential.

but they just don't use it. I've gotta admit that apple did a very good job with positioning the ipod in the market. But that doesn't make a good product. Walkmans are losing territory now but are, imho, a very solid product. Don't forget that sony has far more experience on this end but their marketing just isn't right. They seem to miss what people are asking for: BIG HDD's, color screens, video playback, drag n drop, wide codec support etc.

I think sony is doing a great job so far and apple too. But I think there's gonna be sometime when people have enough of Ipod and I hope soo deeply that the big S is awake then and can come up with a ground-braking walkman. Like apple did with the ipod a few years ago.

Edited September 12, 2006 by DSP

[lindijones]

Here it is the iPod with Gapless Playback!!!

from Keynote:

http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/12/live-fr...e-its-showtime/

10:06AM - "You might be listening to Abbey Road or Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon, and one track doesn't flow seamlessly into the next. We are going to put this back together as it was intended and offer Gapless Playback for songs encoded with MP3, AAC, and Apple Lossless."

I wonder how it works. And nano with 24 hours playback time?

The advantages of the Sony players seems to be gone or they are shrinking more and more....

[lecram1971]

Going to say the same.

Sorry, but I think Sony will lose one costumer (I don´t think they care to much but...), if Ipod now it´s Gapless I don´t think there´s a reason why not changing to the white unit (or black). Gapless play back seems for me the only thing that keeps me with Atrac, and if you can have 80gb you can record all in 192or higher and will sound like atrac.

Sorry Sony, I love my Minidisc, I think I will keep it, I wait for a good HD from Sony, but now the future seems to be IPOD.

[maggior]

Sorry, but I think Sony will lose one costumer (I don´t think they care to much but...), if Ipod now it´s Gapless I don´t think there´s a reason why not changing to the white unit (or black). Gapless play back seems for me the only thing that keeps me with Atrac, and if you can have 80gb you can record all in 192or higher and will sound like atrac.

Sorry Sony, I love my Minidisc, I think I will keep it, I wait for a good HD from Sony, but now the future seems to be IPOD.

They will probably lose 2 customers (probably a lot more in reality). Gapless is the only reason I've gone with Sony and ATRAC. In the US at least, it is much easier to find accessories and units. For my HD-3 and accessories, I had to resort to ebay. I wanted to by an NW-A3000, but they didn't sell them here.

As much as I tried to give my money to Sony, they wouldn't take it .

I'm going to wait and see what folks think as they buy these new IPods. The price is right and the size if great (80 GB!!). I'd like verification that they are truely gapless and are not doing something hokey like fade-in/out between tracks to give the appearance of gapless.

Sony - please give me a reason not to buy an IPod!!

Edited September 13, 2006 by maggior

[rocklegend_]

I have been seriously considering getting an iPod.I´ve been told by froends of mine the it plays gapless.That´s something that Sony Hi-MD and HDD players don´t do.Sony have lost the advantage and I really can´t see Sony getting it back....Sony have been behind for the last Four-Five years....

[pata2001]

I can vouch that my 5G iPod is now gapless prefectly (no crossfade junk) with firmware 1.2. If you don't know how to rip/encode your CDs properly to get gapless, just let iTunes7 rip it to AAC. Lame MP3 -V2 --vbr-new is gapless also.

Zune is dead before it even comes out. Sorry MS, maybe you should just focus in releasing a secure OS instead of trying to do a DAP half-heartedly.

[Dinko]

I can vouch that my 5G iPod is now gapless prefectly (no crossfade junk) with firmware 1.2.

Question: When iTunes runs wild with your library looking for gapless tracks, does it affect the ID tags or merge tracks in any way? Or is it just another one of those bizarre iTunes functions like "Analyzing volume".

[pata2001]

Question: When iTunes runs wild with your library looking for gapless tracks, does it affect the ID tags or merge tracks in any way? Or is it just another one of those bizarre iTunes functions like "Analyzing volume".

As far as I know, none of my tracks are changed in any way. It definitely won't combine tracks randomly in any way. Personally, I think it just updating its own database since there is now a new checkbox (part of gapless album) in the track properties. Gapless playback in iTunes works even with Lame encoded MP3s without the --no-gap switch, so it doesn't care if there is a Lame tag for gapless or not.

[Dinko]

Cool. Thanks!

[Ginger T]

With the recent announcement of Gapless Ipods i think Sony maybe losing another customer. Sorry Sony, but like on many things you've dragged your heels and lived off your past good reputation.

Edited September 16, 2006 by Ginger T

[JSP62]

Ladies and Gentlemen, all this talk of getting ipoos.....you know there are other DAPs out there!

For example, I just purchased a Sandisk e250 (2.0 GB) for $108.00.

And its GAPLESS.

Oh did mention it also has an mini SD slot for expansion.

Oh it has video capabilities too.

Oh yeah and also it is MTP/MSC!

Drag and drop what?!?!?

Supported on linux and @pple !

Oh yea, and there's mods gallore!

nuff said!

ref

http://www.lilmonsta.com/index.php

http://www.anythingbutipod.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=9

PS - I'll always have my Vaio Pocket for home/office play and my MD for future DJing. Oh and my megabass cassette cause it's a classic!

[pata2001]

For example, I just purchased a Sandisk e250 (2.0 GB) for $108.00.

And its GAPLESS.

Oh it has video capabilities too.

Sandisk is not gapless. If it did, the people at dapreview would have known already.

Is video really useful on a screen that small?

Have you tried iTunes' smart playlist? I don't even have to "drag-n-drop" anymore. Just plug my iPod, iTunes will automatically update it, and with live-updating smart playlist, iTunes automatically cycle the songs from my library for me.

[Beethovenian]

It would be nice if Sandisk's players were gapless. I actually find the e200 series more attractive than the nano. Not that I would buy it, since I caved in and ordered an 80GB iPod. But it would be nice to see other options for gapless playback, and frankly I still don't see what's so great about iTunes. Maybe synchronization features, easy transfers etc., but in terms of library organization, it's in my opinion years behind WMP 11. I downloaded iTunes 7 and despite finding the fancy cover browser pretty and the operation reasonably smooth, have the general impression that it's not practical. For someone with lots of music (I have about 1,600 CDs) and album-oriented, iTunes can be a mess. Anyway, I decided not to wait for Sony to improve its offers, simply because I don't believe they'll be much better than what Apple has to offer now. It seems to me it will take quite some time for Sony to get its act together, sadly.

[navsimpson]

I think for Sony to take the same approach as the Zune would be suicidal - I don't think there's any point in trying to best the iPod/iTunes duo as their market share is just too great to surmount in the short-term. What many here have said - that Sony invented this market - is something that I think can be looked at another way. While it's true that Sony invented the portable audio market, I think (and this is just my opinion) that the DAP market is different in that it rests on the interdependence of hardware/software. ITunes just works well with the iPod - it's straightforward and makes the whole experience easy and transparent, and its often this that made people hop on the Apple train. In addition, Apple just made the iPod cool, like a Walkman or Discman used to be, because they not only embraced new technology, but also the new cultural changes that went along with it.

I also don't believe that gapless or even things like sound quality matter that much in the larger picture (they might matter to me, but I don't think that counts for much). I decided to get a Sony player because I just thought iPods didn't sound great and, having listened to a few now, I'm glad I did get a Network Walkman. But if the iTunes revolution proved anything, it's that customers only care about basic quality (i.e. a 128kbs AAC file) and, probably more than that, usability and choice. Millions of people are more than happy to listen to DRMed lossy music, not because they're stupid but because it's just simple, easy and what they want.

If Sony wants to gain a market share, then I believe it has to: have simple, straightforward and stable software; create a device that is a mix of the PSP and Walkman, particularly with the PSP's new focus on playing multiple formats; remake Connect to make it not only faster to use but also more in line with new Web 2.0 social networking; and include both video and music to make Connect the online hub not only for Walkmans, but also the PSP and PS3. It's only then that they'll have the sort of clout to get a workable business of selling both hardware and content.

[edit] Oh, I also forgot, because I know you were to dying to hear: why doesn't Sony actually make use of their content arms and start selling their huge Columbia jazz/classical collections as something like 'premium Connect content' i.e. high-bitrate music. It seems that jazz and classical listeners are prob. more likely to want better sound quality, so it could be sold at 352kbs or maybe even ATRAC lossless.

Sorry I'm such a wordy git.

Nav

Edited September 21, 2006 by navsimpson

[Ascariss]

I personally have no ever bought any mp3s that are under 320, and will always go for best quality, sometimes regardless of price.

[Dinko]

and frankly I still don't see what's so great about iTunes. Maybe synchronization features, easy transfers etc., but in terms of library organization, it's in my opinion years behind WMP 11. I downloaded iTunes 7 and despite finding the fancy cover browser pretty and the operation reasonably smooth, have the general impression that it's not practical. For someone with lots of music (I have about 1,600 CDs) and album-oriented, iTunes can be a mess.

Indeed it's not all that great when you have a giant library full of classical music. Especially that the album art on half of my CDs is wrong. The Stanley Black Decca compilation is not the same thing as the Stanley Black CD from Chandos! iTunes was really developed for medium libraries I think. As an example, take the number of background operations that iTunes engages in: volume analysis, gapless, album art, etc. All of this works fine for 300 songs, but try importing 10000 songs and iTunes operations slow each other down. It's also not very easy to get around the menus. SonicStage: change the rip settings with two clicks. iTunes: change the rip settings if you can find your way through the menus. Editing tracks' ID tags is still as annoying as before.

But, it has a number of advantages: it's really clean, usually works pretty fast, and... uhm... well that's pretty much it. Just like the iPod, iTunes isn't all that great, but it works as advertised. If you don't want any special functions, iTunes pretty much does the job of managing your library for you.

[pata2001]

Just like the iPod, iTunes isn't all that great, but it works as advertised. If you don't want any special functions, iTunes pretty much does the job of managing your library for you.

Have you tried smart playlist? You can also subscribe to podcasts using iTunes. It is more useful that you think, and definitely more useful than many other jukebox software out there. Try importing 10000 tracks through Sonicstage, and see what happen.

[Dinko]

Have you tried smart playlist? You can also subscribe to podcasts using iTunes. It is more useful that you think, and definitely more useful than many other jukebox software out there. Try importing 10000 tracks through Sonicstage, and see what happen.

I don't want to think about it. I tried once. It took almost 24 hours.

I don't like smart playlists or auto playlists. Usually I know exactly what I want to listen to, where I want to listen to it, etc. When it comes to music, I'm a control freak. I decide. I want my ID tags in a special way. I want my folders organized my own way. I'm sure smart playlists are convenient, but I don't like losing that bit of control. I'm really not sure that they would fit my listening style. Podcasts are uhm... a waste of time. I see no reason to listen to podcasts when I can listen to music. Podcasts never made any sense to me. The only podcasts I might consider are news updates, but then again, if I want the latest news, I just go to Google. Faster. Easier. So... podcasts are a completely useless functionality for me.