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MDS-JE510 - weird eject problem

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Hi everyone,

I'm back with a new problem with my JE510 minidisc deck, and I hope someone here will be able to help me.

So here is what happened first : I bought a mds-je510 player that was sold as working, but I struggled to make it read minidiscs. It was just spinnng a bit and then ejected the disc. It turned out that it was because it's been plugged out for a long time and if I let it plugged in, it reads and records minidiscs flawlessly.
But someday it started to turn on by itself, so I decided to plug it in only when I needed it.

Everything was fine until last week. I read a minidisc, then it couldn't eject it. It tried to eject the disc, then reloaded it. I tried to grab it as it was going out a little bit, and it went a bit crazy : if it was empty it tried to read a disc (TOC READING) and if I tried to put a disc in the player, it ejected it and started to do the "machine gun" noise.

So I disassembled the player, I "fixed" the microswitch with some electrical tape, then reassembled everything.

Everything was great : I could put a disc, it can read it, no flashing TOC reading, everything seems to be smooth. But I saw the head jumping out of its location, above the metal plate. So I read somewhere that Sony fixed it, adding a plastic sheet above that part, so I did this too.

But I can't eject my disc anymore. I can insert the minidisc, it reads it flawlessly. But if I try to eject, the head seems to be stuck in the mechanism that is supposed to close the shutter. Then it reloads the disc, and the head doesn't seem to find where to start reading so it displays an reading error, tries to eject, then reload, then spins faster.

I recorded the problem.
Does anyone have an idea on how to solve this ?

Thanks a lot


 

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Looks like the vertical stepper motor is misaligned. At least that's what it would be on a portable. Have you tried a simple "initialize" on the deck? (I assume since you've had it apart that you know all the consequences of this and what to do if you get into service mode etc etc)

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5 minutes ago, sfbp said:

Looks like the vertical stepper motor is misaligned. At least that's what it would be on a portable. Have you tried a simple "initialize" on the deck? (I assume since you've had it apart that you know all the consequences of this and what to do if you get into service mode etc etc)

Thanks for your reply.

As it was almost dead, I have to admit that I didn't think about it.

I saw a tutorial online to disassemble and fix the microswitch. That was all, nothing about the service mode

 

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Deck will sometimes reinit when it's been unplugged long enough. But the rapid way to do it is to get into SM and then there's a command, I think. To get out of SMin the 510 (just looked it up), you can press REPEAT (on deck, not remote) or simply unplug.

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2 hours ago, sfbp said:

Deck will sometimes reinit when it's been unplugged long enough. But the rapid way to do it is to get into SM and then there's a command, I think. To get out of SMin the 510 (just looked it up), you can press REPEAT (on deck, not remote) or simply unplug.

Well, I let it unplugged for a couple of hours.

I turned it on, the disc started to spin, then it displayed "disc error" and it struggled to eject the disc, but managed to do it.

I put it back in the deck, it could play it immediately. But couldn't eject it anymore, the sled were stuck again in the metal plate.

I checked the service manual, but didn't find anything in test mode about resetting or initializing the stepper motor.

 

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Most later decks will display "Initialize" (or maybe "init") when they come out of service mode.

What I thought I saw on the clip was the overwrite head getting jammed because it's not positioned correctly (ie whenever it's not recording, it has to be lifted away from the rotating disk).

Have you checked:

a. parts that need to move (oil and grease in these machines are very dangerous as they congeal easily) do so. Rust is often a problem on the 510 but not later models which use a lot more plastic that doesn't rust

b. the power supply output voltages?

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I reread your initial notes. I don't think you want that plastic sheet. I suspect it merely masked the real problem and caused jamming. But please forgive my ignorance, I can not for the life of me see what makes the OWH go up and down. Is the position governed by the position of the gear in #3 on page 23? I don't have a unit to compare, I don't want to take anything apart at the moment, and even then I can't understand the diagram.

Kevin?

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I've been watching this thread but so far haven't really had any meaningful contribution to make. Apologies I should have commented at least for the "moral support" to a fellow user.

I've watched the video and agree with @jonathanpotato: the OWH and the laser sled are linked and are not returning to the parked position to the left (disc centre) prior to the eject mechanism running; you can see in the video it jam up against the plastic tab on the OWH. Fortunately the Sony engineers set the threshold for the disc insert/eject detection such that the eject doesn't continue forcing past the "jam" point on the sled which could have lead to irrepairable damage. Also well spotted that the OWH is not properly fitted into the carrier frame - I thought it looked a little weird the way it was hanging down but could not see the detail.

At this point I can't help more as I don't know why the sled does not return to the parked (disc centre) position prior to eject. However Jonathan seems to be well on the case. I'll keep watching this thread but it seems you are already in good hands!

Jonathan is advising temporary removal of that plate which looks like it will allow eject to operate without hitting the OWH/sled assembly. I'm interested in the outcome of this. However given that I understand this machine has worked, something is amiss with the mechanical assembly that is causing this issue. Stephen has probably already suggested looking for broken teeth on the gears and racks. I would add belatedly just to check if the mechanism looks "together" correctly - that sliders etc seem to be located in their correct locations/tracks. That one on the top that Jonathan also refers to looks interesting... Also if you can go into Service Mode I believe the IN/MID/OUT Cont.Play setting should allow you to move the sled manually using the front-panel controls (this is certainly the case for JE520 and above, so I'm making the assumption that the 510 has something similar).

Kevin

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Yes Kevin, the service mode can be used to handle manually the sled part of the mechanism.

Like almost all other models << and >> buttons can be used on front panel to move the optical block left or right. Just be careful with ends.

IMHO if his deck allow ejecting in this position, there is a problem with the LIMIT IN switch.

That's explains also that his deck was late to start the disc until 12 seconds in his video : too long time.

 

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5 minutes ago, jonathanpotato said:

That's explains also that his deck was late to start the disc until 12 seconds in his video : too long time.

You're right (again!). I thought it was slow to start too, but you've clocked that one too and have identified the cause!

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1 hour ago, jonathanpotato said:

Yes Kevin, the service mode can be used to handle manually the sled part of the mechanism.

Like almost all other models << and >> buttons can be used on front panel to move the optical block left or right. Just be careful with ends.

IMHO if his deck allow ejecting in this position, there is a problem with the LIMIT IN switch.

That's explains also that his deck was late to start the disc until 12 seconds in his video : too long time.

 

 

1 hour ago, kgallen said:

You're right (again!). I thought it was slow to start too, but you've clocked that one too and have identified the cause!

Thanks a lot for trying to help.
I just saw your replies, I took some pics and shot a new video to show the problem with multiple angles and in slow motion.

So, the first thing I have to say is that I didn't remove the recording head, just removed metal plates and the electronic board in order to access the microswitch (more or less like in this tutorial http://snnake11.tripod.com/ - don't go there if you don't have a solid ad blocker -).
The eject problem suddenly started after I played a minidisc as usual, not after I disassemble the deck.

About the plastic sheet, I read that MDM-3 mechanics had this well known problem, that could bend and break the sled (the link is in French). I witnessed this so that's why I added a sheet too.

hr901-misled-mdm3.jpg

In late MDM-3 models, Sony itself fixed it, glueing a plastic sheet like this :

mdm3-fix-1.jpg

 

Here are some pics of my deck, if it could help a bit. Images are clickable :

top.jpg
side.jpg

blocage.jpg

It seems that the white plastic part I circled in red remains stucked in the metal part I stressed in red. Sometimes it tries harder to eject, and it pops out of it in order to do the whole move. Each time it fails at ejecting, the head moves a bit to the left. When it's on the far left, it seems easier to eject.

And here is the video :

 

As you can see, this is not exactly the same model than @jonathanpotato uploaded.
I tried to go into test mode then get out of it, it just goes back in Standby mode without any initialization.

So it seems that setting left and right in Test Mode could help, but how can I know when it's too far ?

Thanks a lot for your help.

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(Showing my ignorance once again) Jonathan has zeroed in on the OWH. When I have seen this buckling (whether on portables or decks) I know it's dangerously close to dying. The mechanism (he called the "leveller" but I really don't quite see how it works) that moves the OWH is jammed, causing the eject to be stuck. This really is catastrophic - on portables the head is a lot more fragile and can simply break - in this case it happens when people try opening the clamshell after it appears locked for writing (with the head lowered), which can happen when the machine runs out of power during recording.

On decks, it's sturdy but you have to persuade the raising mechanism to be in the right place. As Kevin says, if that cog is what drives the "leveller" then it could have a broken tooth, or it might be simply mispositioned, as mentioned on p.23. Honestly, I'm out of my depth - this is a job for M. Dupre (Jon).

Wow that guide is very helpful. Still not sure I understand the relevant passage (I love the phrase "un peu indescriptible" which sums it up for me). The glitch in head movement at 34 seconds into your last video looks like it's the key (as it seems to be from the OWH head hitting something).

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12 minutes ago, sfbp said:

(Showing my ignorance once again) Jonathan has zeroed in on the OWH. When I have seen this buckling (whether on portables or decks) I know it's dangerously close to dying. The mechanism (he called the "leveller" but I really don't quite see how it works) that moves the OWH is jammed, causing the eject to be stuck. This really is catastrophic - on portables the head is a lot more fragile and can simply break - in this case it happens when people try opening the clamshell after it appears locked for writing (with the head lowered), which can happen when the machine runs out of power during recording.

On decks, it's sturdy but you have to persuade the raising mechanism to be in the right place. As Kevin says, if that cog is what drives the "leveller" then it could have a broken tooth, or it might be simply mispositioned, as mentioned on p.23. Honestly, I'm out of my depth - this is a job for M. Dupre (Jon).

Wow that guide is very helpful. Still not sure I understand the relevant passage (I love the phrase "un peu indescriptible" which sums it up for me).

Wow I forgot this part about the head position. Thanks :D

I'm not good at mechanics, and definitely not a handyman. I hope it's not dying.

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46 minutes ago, sfbp said:

(Showing my ignorance once again) Jonathan has zeroed in on the OWH. When I have seen this buckling (whether on portables or decks) I know it's dangerously close to dying. The mechanism (he called the "leveller" but I really don't quite see how it works) that moves the OWH is jammed.

I corrected my word "leveller" -> Lever (as Sony spells it in SM).

1965152209_2020-05-0916_42_23-mdsje510_sm.pdf-MDS-JE510-SumatraPDF.thumb.png.64a97cd2e13856eb487b5a154b9a4e65.png

Quote

The glitch in head movement at 34 seconds into your last video looks like it's the key (as it seems to be from the OWH head hitting something).

Yeah I think his OHW will die soon if he continues. :-) It's a miracle it still alive.

I persist, the problem for me not is loading or up/down gears but the OPU is not fully pushed to the left before ejecting -> sled problem.

Quote

Still not sure I understand the relevant passage (I love the phrase "un peu indescriptible" which sums it up for me).

That's why I put colors to better understand :

BAD :

rech1.jpg

GOOD :

rech2.jpg

 

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14 minutes ago, jonathanpotato said:

I corrected my word "leveller" -> Lever (as Sony spell it in SM).

1965152209_2020-05-0916_42_23-mdsje510_sm.pdf-MDS-JE510-SumatraPDF.thumb.png.64a97cd2e13856eb487b5a154b9a4e65.png

Yeah I think his OHW will die soon if he continues. :-) It's a miracle it still alive.

I persist, the problem for me not is loading or up/down gears but the OPU is not fully pushed to the left before ejecting -> sled problem.

That's why I put colors to better understand :

BAD :

rech1.jpg

GOOD :

rech2.jpg

 

Well I did some tests with what you told me. The problem is that the head doesn't go back to the IN position so it can't eject.
If I force it in "test mode" to go back to IN position, or if I just go back to Track 1 before ejecting, everything is great. Also, if it's not already in Track 1 when inserting a disc,  it fails at reading it. If it's in IN position, it works.

Is it possible to do something easily or is it just dead ?
What is OHW? (sorry, English isn't my native language so I may miss some details)

Thank you.

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OWH = Over Write Head = Fragile metal/plastic piece in white you are destroying progressively...  :-)

So you have to understand why your Optical Pickup Unit (with the OWH screwed above) is not returning correctly to the center.

Is a little piece/screw is blocking ? Maybe missing some grease on worm ? Week motor ? Low tension (volts) send to motor by electronics ? I don't know.

MDM-3 is prone to grab/twitst the OWH. The symptom is no recording and erase disc because OWH is not plane to the disc anymore (twisted). And you need tact to make it come back to his original shape flat against the upper side of the disc.

It's the first time I see the MDM-3 not returning correctly the OPU. As I said to Kevin before. If the software allows you to eject, it means that the signal comes to the CPU/µc that the OPU is parked is received, but you can see physically that it's not the case (by hurting the OWH plastic). That's why I supposed a bad/faulty LIMIT IN switch.

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11 minutes ago, jonathanpotato said:

OWH = Over Write Head = Fragile metal/plastic piece in white you are destroying progressively...  :-)

So you have to understand why your Optical Pickup Unit (with the OWH screwed above) is not returning correctly to the center.

Is a little piece/screw is blocking ? Maybe missing some grease on worm ? Week motor ? Low tension (volts) send to motor by electronics ? I don't know.

MDM-3 is prone to grab/twitst the OWH. The symptom is no recording and erase disc because OWH is not plane to the disc anymore (twisted). And you need tact to make it come back to his original shape flat against the upper side of the disc.

It's the first time I see the MDM-3 not returning correctly the OPU. As I said to Kevin before. If the software allows you to eject, it means that the signal comes to the CPU/µc that the OPU is parked is received, but you can see physically that it's not the case (by hurting the OWH plastic). That's why I supposed a bad/faulty LIMIT IN switch.

Well, the head doesn't even try to go back to IN position when stopping or ejecting a disc.
However, It has no problem to move to IN, MID or OUT position in test mode.

So is it possible to do something with this switch or is it just dead?

Well as I fixed the microswitch it doesn't turn on by itself and I still can use it as a DAC for my computer for now but it's sad.

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The plastic sheet is only a part of the Sony fix. The second part is to remove some metal to allow more space to the OWH. It's not your case but I explain it for visitors.

DSCF5211.JPG.09f8aad87772426706c1d44b1dfe69f8.JPG

DSCF5217.JPG.375558b155e866ba4e7ae023bbd95bbb.JPG

But on some versions (picture you posted before) you can see the fix is not present (no dent in metal) :

hr901-misled-mdm3.jpg

Thats why it's written :

Quote

Le mieux étant quand même de limer sur un 1/2mm voire 1mm un peu au Dremel cette partie métallique pour laisser plus de marge de débattement à la tête d'enregistrement.

Quote

The best is still to file on a 1 / 2mm or even 1mm a little with Dremel this metal part to leave more margin of movement to the recording head.

 

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14 minutes ago, ck10 said:

Well, the head doesn't even try to go back to IN position when stopping or ejecting a disc.
However, It has no problem to move to IN, MID or OUT position in test mode.

So is it possible to do something with this switch or is it just dead?

Well as I fixed the microswitch it doesn't turn on by itself and I still can use it as a DAC for my computer for now but it's sad.

In fact in Sony bulletin about this clearly says that ALL SWITCHES OF THE MECHANISM are concerned and to be replaced (normally).

1443932743_2020-05-0917_48_03-mdsje510_fantom_norec_problems.pdf-SumatraPDF.thumb.png.5ab18e1a1482d56731fa356d1fe09ac6.png

99% of time, we (myself too) resolve the CHUCKING IN one and that's it, problem solved. But others can be faulty over time.

Replace this one is difficult for a novice.

I only changed theses when someone do sh** job before me. See pictures : https://www.jonathandupre.fr/articles/17-minidisc-md/233-reparation-platine-md-sony-mds-je510-massacree

 

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I like your idea, Jonathan - that the sled doesn't get home because motor cannot drive it. However I would suspect, especially given the glitch we see, that there is mechanical resistance that is preventing the homing of the head. Is there a worm screw (lead screw) like on the portables? I'm really pleased to look at your exploding diagram which is noticeably ABSENT from my 510 Service Manual, but I still haven't understood it fully. That's a special skill, understanding 2D representations of 3D layouts, and I apparently don't have it.

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Sorry I’m not helping you guys much but this thread is fantastic. Loving the diagrams and annotations being presented.

I confess, I’m playing Lego with my 8 year old which is something I do far too infrequently...

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