HI-MD Recording RIP

[rirsa]

M-Audio http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MicroTrack-main.html

$369 at Core Sound.

2-channel WAV and MP3 recording and playback for pro recording, meetings, training, education and worship

storage via convenient CompactFlash or microdrives

immediate drag-and-drop file transfer to PC and Mac via USB 2.0 mini- connector

powered via USB, rechargeable lithium-ion battery or power supply (both included)

separate left and right input level controls with signal and peak indicators

professional balanced 1/4” TRS inputs with mic/line switch

dual microphone preamps with phantom power for studio microphones

1/8” TRS input with 5V power for use with stereo electret microphone (microphone included)

S/PDIF coaxial input for digital transfers

monitoring via RCA line outputs or 1/8” stereo headphone output

stereo output level control

large LCD for navigation and statistics

dedicated buttons for navigation, record, hold, pause, delete, menu, and power

includes software for editing and file format conversion

64MB CompactFlash card included

MP3 recording: 96 to 320kbps at 32, 44.1 or 48kHz

PCM recording: 16 or 24-bit at 32, 44.1, 48, 88.2 or 96kHz

storage capacity: variable based on data rate and storage medium

battery life before recharge: approximately eight hours (three hours with phantom power)

[tartan]

Looks very tempting, but the only things against getting one right now is the cost of media and the possibility of it coming with an unreplacable built in battery or non standard shaped battery

Edited July 29, 2005 by tartan

[MDGB2]

$369-500 (+ expensive memory cards....)

Hi-MD discs are a lot cheaper than equivalent capacity memory cards.

And it looks like a cheap plastic toy......

Edited July 29, 2005 by MDGB2

[greenmachine]

Awesome, besides the non-standarized battery, it looks very interesting. I wonder about the quality of the built-in mic preamp / a/d part.

[rirsa]

Hi-MD discs are a lot cheaper than equivalent capacity memory cards.

←

Yeah, a $3 roll of Kodachrome is a lot cheaper than a 1GB CF card as well ;-)

[streaml1ne]

Yeah, a $3 roll of Kodachrome is a lot cheaper than a 1GB CF card as well ;-)

←

Yea, but you're not getting 200-400 images on a roll of Kodachrome

96khz wave recordings will require a 4GB card for any decent amount of recording time. Definitely an expensive proposition.

[Roamer]

I'll go to a 3 days festival in Germany by the end of the week. I plan to tape like 15 hours of shows, some uncompressed. That would mean a rather larger compact flash (not really cheap). And the built-in battery would be drained long before the end of the festival (power supply is very limited on the camp site). I already have several blank HiMDs, 6 gumsticks + AAs are easy to get. Interesting product, but not (yet) a killer. Built-in battery that can not be replaced is a big mistake in my opinion.

I hope this could push Sony to improve HiMD : skip all DRMs with recording, provide more bitrates for recording, and eventually produce larger capacities HiMD ... (SS3.2 is a good improvement, keep going ...)

[rirsa]

Where did you read that battery is fixed and can not be replaced? I don't think M-audio has posted the details on this yet.

There are people who can't easily offload for extended periods--that's not a very big market...

[rirsa]

Yea, but you're not getting 200-400 images on a roll of Kodachrome 

96khz wave recordings will require a 4GB card for any decent amount of recording time. Definitely an expensive proposition.

←

If you were shooting digital images with a professional camera that was capable of getting about the same resolution as a Kodachrome you might only be getting around 36 photos to a 1GB card if they were saved uncompressed.

You don't have the option of higher resolution audio with MD so what's your point? You are stuck with 1GB capacity for 16bit/44.1kHz audio but flash memory sizes are increasing and prices are falling all the time.

Edited July 29, 2005 by rirsa

[Meryl Arbing]

$369-500 (+ expensive memory cards....) 

Hi-MD discs are a lot cheaper than equivalent capacity memory cards.

And it looks like a cheap plastic toy......

←

Well, you shouldn't be concerned about the price of CF media. As you can see from this annoucement, Pretec has a very nice 12Gb CF card for the low,LOW price of only...

US$14,900

Pretec 12Gb CF card

But WAIT!...their 6Gb card is only US$7499...how's that for a bargoon!!!?

Of course, you don't need to buy anything since the recorded comes with a nice 64Mb card that is good for a whole 9 minutes of recording (or up to 18 minutes if you reduce quality)!

Edited July 29, 2005 by Meryl Arbing

[greenmachine]

1 GB cards are already affordable, higher capacities will be affordable soon. The price argument won't count much longer.

[Christopher]

2 GB.

http://www.shopperwiz.com/shopdisplaydetai...084504210&L=005

[Meryl Arbing]

1 GB cards are already affordable, higher capacities will be affordable soon. The price argument won't count much longer.

←

Yes, but at US$129 that is still a long way from US$6 for a 1Gb MD. You could get 21 Gb of MD storage for the cost of 1 Gb of CF card. Cost is still a factor.

I also expect battery life will be an issue.

Edited July 29, 2005 by Meryl Arbing

[rirsa]

US$129? Where are you shopping?

Meritline has 1GB 80x card for $69.

Newegg is selling a 45x Transcend 1GB card for $54.

And prices are falling...

[Syrius]

Still can't beat Hi-MD. You can get 9 1GB discs for those 54. Yeah, it's slower, but boy, it's cheap!

And I'm sure HI-MD media will soon become as cheap as old-style MDs.

[greenmachine]

I'd prefer using non-mechanical media, even if it's somewhat more expensive. If the capacity is high enough for your needs, getting a card is a once-in-a-lifetime investment anyway. Sony, will you give us a CF recorder? There needs to be more competition in that market.

[rirsa]

Still can't beat Hi-MD. You can get 9 1GB discs for those 54. Yeah, it's slower, but boy, it's cheap!

←

Your cost calculation, 1 CF card = 9 HiMD or whatever is irrelevant because you are assuming that one saves stuff on the original media. If you use solid state storage you work quite differently. You record, you download (drag n' drop via USB2, Firewire or whatever to hard disc on MAC or PC), you burn copies to CDR, DVD or whatever media you want to use. It is very similar to the way people already manage digital photos. There is no mystery. If you look at the way people actually use solid state media you'd understand that there is no cost disadvantage and hasn't been for some time.

And flash memory is used in a huge and expanding range of goods. It is not a boutique media like MD. For this reason the price of CF cards is falling *at least* 30% a year. In a year 1GB CF cards will be under $30. In another year...

And flash media is exteremly fast and reliable.

===

Note also that this and other CF recorders also support microdrives as well as flash memory. Microdrives come in sizes from of 2 to 6GB at the moment and run about $40/GB.

Edited July 30, 2005 by rirsa

[Meryl Arbing]

Your cost calculation, 1 CF card = 9 HiMD or whatever is irrelevant because you are assuming that one saves stuff on the original media. If you use solid state storage you work quite differently. You record, you download (drag n' drop via USB2, Firewire or whatever to hard disc on MAC or PC), you burn copies to CDR, DVD or whatever media you want to use. It is very similar to the way people already manage digital photos. There is no mystery. If you look at the way people actually use solid state media you'd understand that there is no cost disadvantage and hasn't been for some time.

And flash memory is used in a huge and expanding range of goods. It is not a boutique media like MD. For this reason the price of CF cards is falling *at least* 30% a year. In a year 1GB CF cards will be under $30. In another year...

And flash media is exteremly fast and reliable.

←

What is to stop me from using a 1Gb MD in the same way as you propose using a 1Gb CF card? "You record, you download,...you burn copies to CDR, DVD or whatever media you want to use." This is what I do now! Except that if I'm recording using PCM and I need more than 1 Gb of storage...the MD is more affordable. I CAN and DO have 5 1Gb MDs in my pocket.

[rirsa]

What is to stop me from using a 1Gb MD in the same way as you propose using a 1Gb CF card? 

←

I don't propose; this is the way I work now. I don't think about transfer. It's a non-issue. Drag and drop and the files are there. No waiting. No messing around.

There is nothing to stop you using your MD discs in the same way except you have to use Sonicstage and it's so sloooooooooooooooooow.

[Prof.OND]

Or...

Buy both Hi-MD and the new media.

This way everybody's happy.

[ummagumma]

wow, finally they are manufacturing a decent concept in portable recording...I was looking at the marantz version of this a few months ago, but it's much larger & more expensive.

I already have CF camera cards, and the USB interface of this is perfect.

MD would be great if sony fixed sonicstage & made it as easy & straightforward as this.

plus m-audio make killer soundcards etc, I have no doubt this is a quality product. I'm looking at where to buy one now....

[Christopher]

You'd buy one without having any clue what the battery life is? It's not even listed on that website..anyone have any specs?

[MDGB2]

I'd prefer using non-mechanical media, even if it's somewhat more expensive. If the capacity is high enough for your needs, getting a card is a once-in-a-lifetime investment anyway.

←

Erm, no it's not. In fact memory cards I bought for my digital camera actually say on the back of the packet "eventually this device will lose its memory storage ability and will have to be replaced."

A Minidisc will last much longer.

Edited July 30, 2005 by MDGB2

[bland10000]

a lithium battery that lasts 8 hours (3 with phantom power)

source of battery life

what is phantom power?

[greenmachine]

what is phantom power?

http://www.shure.com/support/technotes/app-phantom1.html

[rirsa]

Erm, no it's not. In fact memory cards I bought for my digital camera actually say on the back of the packet "eventually this device will lose its memory storage ability and will have to be replaced."

A Minidisc will last much longer.

←

Yes, the cells don't last forever but several hundred thousand read/write cycles should last a few years don't you think? The controllers also balance out usage across cells and mark out bad cells. See http://www.compactflash.org/info/cfinfo.htm.

They are pretty durable. People have done all sorts of crazy things to them and still not lost their data. I'd take a CF card over MD any day.

[saaron]

I'm no evangalist and I'd agree the unit looks very nice and the absence of SCMS is a definite plus, but I have to say that I'd need more details on the nature of the power supply (user-replaceable?), and I'd really like to see what to me is the number one killer app aspect of MD-recordable -- whatever the format is: the ability to edit recordings without having to download them or use 3rd party software.

If someone can make a flash-based recorder that has MD's editing features and gets excellent lifespan out of conventional LR6 batteries, I would probably dump MD for live recording and only use it as a portable music player.

[greenmachine]

I wouldn't suggest to edit your recordings on Hi-MD before uploading, there'a a bug:

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showt...indpost&p=65384

This makes the editing features pretty useless.

[rirsa]

If someone can make a flash-based recorder that has MD's editing features and gets excellent lifespan out of conventional LR6 batteries, I would probably dump MD for live recording and only use it as a portable music player.

←

Standard Alkaline/NiMH AA batteries would have been my preferance. We have to wait for more details on this unit's power supply. There is a lot that is unknown. Until a few people have units and report of their performance we won't know how well it compares to other recorders in the same price bracket.

The Marantz PMD660 uses AA and gets good battery life on a set of NiMH. It also has sophisticated editing features. It's larger althought not huge. With size comes better ergonomics etc. but depends what you are doing. Some people need tiny; some don't.

Edited July 31, 2005 by rirsa

[Syrius]

Hmm. $200 for an RH910 VS $400 for that device plus the media.

ZOMF!!!11 Hi-MD doesn't have a prayer! I HAVE BEEN LIVING A LIE ALL THIS PAST DECADE! Why oh God, whyyyyyyyy????111!!!!!11One!

Seriously, I don't see any reason why this topic should continue. Sure, CF recorders like this are good and useful, but labeling it the "Hi-MD Killer" is akin to answering a crossword puzzle with a Sharpie.

[greenmachine]

The Marantz PMD660 uses AA and gets good battery life on a set of NiMH. It also has sophisticated editing features. It's larger althought not huge. With size comes better ergonomics etc. but depends what you are doing. Some people need tiny; some don't.

←

I wouldn't call 4 hours on a set of 4 AA cells a good battery life, with Hi-MD we're used to something more like 8.5/16/17 hours (PCM/Hi-SP/-LP) from a single cell - without moving parts it could be even better. But it's good to see alternatives appearing nevertheless. I don't need phantom power in a portable recorder by the way.

[rirsa]

I wouldn't call 4 hours on a set of 4 AA cells a good battery life, with Hi-MD we're used to something more like 8.5/16/17 hours (PCM/Hi-SP/-LP) from a single cell - without moving parts it could be even better. But it's good to see alternatives appearing nevertheless. I don't need phantom power in a portable recorder by the way.

←

MD is the battery life champ but the Marantz isn't as bad as you make out. The data sheet says 4hrs for alkaline. In actual use it gets 6.5 to 8 hours on NiMH. So it's not that far away for your Hi-MD numbers for PCM. It is really a non-issue if you are using AA NiMH. They are cheap and it's easy to have several sets.

[rirsa]

GOD CAME TO SONY AND SAID, YE SONY SHALT GET THEE ACT TOGETHER, AND SONY DID THE RIGHT THING AND THERE WAS GREAT REJOICING...

←

Sony just posted an earnings loss and cut its annual profit forecast by 88 percent. The company is widely seen as being troubled and has been for a long time. Maybe they'll get their act together. Who knows. Somehow I think MD isn't the product that's going to rescue them.

[A440]

I wouldn't suggest to edit your recordings on Hi-MD before uploading, there'a a bug:

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showt...indpost&p=65384

This makes the editing features pretty useless.

←

You can still add track marks during applause, which I do all the time, or split the music afterward. Splitting up the one long track is better, because if there is a problem with uploading you only lose one segment, not the whole recording. It's only when you remove or try to move marks that the bug makes trouble.

[e1ghtyf1ve]

Back on topic: I hope that M-Audio didn't forget about the analog stages during design like Edirol did with their R1 (or, to a much lesser extent, Marantz with the PMD 660). 35-40dB S/N on the mic input is simply not broadcast quality, sorry. You have to jump through some hoops to get acceptable results (www.oade.com). That's why DAT (yes, still) and classic MD/Hi-MD formats are popular in the industry. In fact, for submissions some networks and studios only accept those formats. 24 bits sound great, but any weak links can kill the benefits.

I do have an M-Audio DMP3 Dual Microphone Preamp with phantom power and it is a good performer, so I still have hope for the Microtrack. But there are too many "TBD" on the Microtrack specs (http://www.core-sound.com/microtrack_2496.html) to be taken seriously by professionals. That said, in the real world where money is often hard-earned, prices for CF cards or microdrives will have to come much further for this device to have a chance in this tough market.

I almost forgot: Remember that decent input machines like the DAT PCM-M1 and Hi-MD RH-(9)10 take common, cheap AA batteries, which you can get all over the world. Somehow, the proprietary built-in Li-ion solution such as what the Microtrack uses inspires little confidence for field recording. Good luck trying to swap batteries during a session. Bring your screwdriver. Or a long power cord.

Cheers

[rirsa]

You have to jump through some hoops to get acceptable results (www.oade.com).  That's why DAT (yes, still) and classic MD/Hi-MD formats are popular in the industry. 

←

Many of the large pro audio retailers have sold truck loads of PMD670s over the last 2 years and I presume will sell even more PMD660s.

Here's what Doug Oade says about Marantz PMD660 and Edirol R1:

R1: "If you use low output mics (like all dynamic mics), you must use a very high grade preamp or you get a good bit of hiss. The R1's mic input and internal mics were designed to be used by musicians not for professional broadcast work. They do not meet the basic standards for radio broadcast, especially if a compressor is used in the signal path. The R1's all analog signal path to the A/D chip is pretty good at any price and very good given the price of the machine."

PMD660: "The PMD660 is a much better choice for broadcast work. When used with a high output condenser it will reach broadcast standards. It is as easy to use in the field and during post, sounds better via the mic preamp and only cost a little more than the R1. Look for a mic with a spec of 10 mv/pa for a stock 660...and you will get good results."

[e1ghtyf1ve]

Many of the large pro audio retailers have sold truck loads of PMD670s over the last 2 years and I presume will sell even more PMD660s.

Here's what Doug Oade says about Marantz PMD660 and Edirol R1:

R1: "If you use low output mics (like all dynamic mics), you must use a very high grade preamp or you get a good bit of hiss. The R1's mic input and internal mics were designed to be used by musicians not for professional broadcast work. They do not meet the basic standards for radio broadcast, especially if a compressor is used in the signal path. The R1's all analog signal path to the A/D chip is pretty good at any price and very good given the price of the machine."

PMD660: "The PMD660 is a much better choice for broadcast work. When used with a high output condenser it will reach broadcast standards. It is as easy to use in the field and during post, sounds better via the mic preamp and only cost a little more than the R1. Look for a mic with a spec of 10 mv/pa for a stock 660...and you will get good results."

←

Doug knows what he's talking about and I respect his opinion. He's also a dealer, and he needs to move the newer technology to stay in business. In addition, he sells a modified PMD 660 that overcomes only some of the sonic limitations. But it is still 16-bits, and compared to Hi-MD much too expensive IMHO at this time.

The R1 is more of a disappointment - 24-bits wasted on a "pretty good" analog path, and not good enough for broadcast: That pretty much sums it up. It needs to be "excellent" for 24-bit audio.

Personally I had high hopes for the good-looking Microtrack, but they were dashed on the details.

Cheers

[Syrius]

I don't know about everybody else, but I'm smelling an awful amount of flamebait in this post. May I request this topic is closed, mods?

I guess that the PSP, the PS2, PS3, their games, all the Trinitrons, Vaios and Discmen will not count for anything now that *Insert gloomy background music here* Minidisc is doomed. Poor Sony. We barely knew ye.

[e1ghtyf1ve]

I guess that the PSP, the PS2, PS3, their games, all the Trinitrons, Vaios and Discmen will not count for anything now that *Insert gloomy background music here* Minidisc is doomed. Poor Sony. We barely knew ye.

←

Hear, hear!

Still, it's nice to know that at least somebody is trying to compete with Sony!

[rirsa]

I don't know about everybody else, but I'm smelling an awful amount of flamebait in this post. May I request this topic is closed, mods?

I guess that the PSP, the PS2, PS3, their games, all the Trinitrons, Vaios and Discmen will not count for anything now that *Insert gloomy background music here* Minidisc is doomed. Poor Sony. We barely knew ye.

←

Why is pointing out the fact that Sony hasn't got it's "act together" and has been struggling to compete in the consumer electronics for some time flamebait? Sony is currently trying to turn the company around, new CEO, restructuring, etc. Get some coffee and go visit the corporate information section of their web site.

And what's all that sarcasm about?