Sony's Digital Rights Mania finally lands them in court

[zerodB]

autoplay disabled + eac

A couple of EMI Copy-Control CDs I have refuse to be recognised. The disc TOC is so encrypted, that EAC refuses to recognise the audio track. Have tried it on different drives too, but to no avail. I can't get a digital copy on MD either, thanks to SCMS on the disc.

Also, FYI, in the wake of Sony's announcement that they will exchange the aformentioned discs, there is a website here which lists the titles eligible for exchange: http://www.upsrow.com/sonybmg/

[jadeclaw]

The TOC isn't encrypted.

It is simpler, it is a multisession CD-ROM.

Audio-CD-Players are single session, they take the first session, containing the Audio-tracks.

PC-Drives read in all sessions, it is then the task of the operating system to take the right one.

MS-Windows takes the last session per default. But that one doesn't list the Audio-Tracks.

Software like CDRoller or BadCopyPro can select any session present on the disc and thus extract the data.

However, before paying for that, you might check, what is included with your CD-Writer software.

I think, Nero has a session selector included in the package.

[Eryn Vorn]

No, SonicStage has nothing to do with that.

Who knows ??? Sony installed rootkits on more than 500000 PCs. And infringed copyright for software...

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/80271/sonys-dr...fringement.html

May be SonicStage is bloodily infected with another rootkit but antivirus firms never told us...

those Sony stupid bosses...

is that virus also in Sonic Stage ? Is every ones computer hooked up by that XPC Virus after Sonic Stage installation ?

we are really poor customers...

Most probably yes....

Edited November 18, 2005 by Eryn Vorn

[jadeclaw]

Someone here on the Forum ran the rootkit revealer on his machine and it found nothing,

despite having SonicStage installed.

However, I have some time on the weekend and I will try it out on my machine.

One thing, we shouldn't forget:

All Sony departments share some space on the financial report and there is a CEO on top of that, but aside from that, the departments are quite independent.

Too bad, that the electronics division has to bear the fallout produced by the music division's stupidity.

And that stupidity has taken on proportions, that I'm inclined to speak of an act of malice.

[Eryn Vorn]

Someone here on the Forum ran the rootkit revealer on his machine and it found nothing,

despite having SonicStage installed.

However, I have some time on the weekend and I will try it out on my machine.

One thing, we shouldn't forget:

All Sony departments share some space on the financial report and there is a CEO on top of that, but aside from that, the departments are quite independent.

Too bad, that the electronics division has to bear the fallout produced by the music division's stupidity.

And that stupidity has taken on proportions, that I'm inclined to speak of an act of malice.

Dont you find it strange that antivirus firms NEVER find out this rootkit and didnt react upon discovery... My guess is that it was OK for Sony to open a back orifice on each of their customer PC.

Isn't there any DRM management in SS? Is this DRM stuff fully documented? No, of course...

Sony doesn't give a shit about its customers.

[jadeclaw]

There is a DRM-management in SonicStage,

but that simply works with file encryption and a MS-Access-database.

With Access2000 or later or the database tools included in Visual Studio 2003,

you can read that database.

That DRM is necessary to prevent digital copying according to the Homerecording act.

Yes, the one that brought SCMS to digital recorders in general.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Update:

Two new F4I license infringements found

Yes, First4Internet used the AAC-codecs from Audiocoding too.

That adds another LGPL-violation.

Plus mpg123 code as well.

( FAAC is under the LGPL, mpg123 is GPL. )

Edited November 18, 2005 by jadeclaw

[dex Otaku]

SCMS has been included in consumer digital audio equipment since about 1990.

The DMCA basically stripped SCMS of any merit. Most current consumer devices no longer follow its rules because they are considered too weak.

SCMS != modern DRM.

[jadeclaw]

However, when you take the HiMD-recorder and SonicStage as a single unit,

then you see, that it behaves like the Homerecording act wanted it to behave.

1) Analog recording can be exported to Wave after upload.

That is your second digital generation allowed.

2) Digital recording cannot be exported. As that is your second digital generation.

3) Upload to a different machine of a downloaded track is not allowed.

The downloaded track is your second generation.

Now replace the two PCs with two standalone MD-Decks, e.g. two MDS-JE500,

and play this through again.

The only difference is the ignorance of the copyall-bit.

[dex Otaku]

Good points. I hadn't thought of it in exactly that way. I've been thinking of the copy made during upload as a 1st-gen copy [2nd gen recording], the export as the same generation, and anything after as 2nd gen copy [3rd gen recording]. Thanks for the jog to the senses.

Point though: HiMD bookshelf systems, for instance, won't allow copying via SP/DIF regardless of the recording-generation on the disc [1st-gen analogue or anything else]. [That the same units disable SP/DIF completely during HiMD playback is sort of irrelevant; if you put a 1st-gen analogue-sourced recording in there, you should be able to copy it digitally via SP/DIF under the old rules.]

[jadeclaw]

Point though: HiMD bookshelf systems, for instance, won't allow copying via SP/DIF regardless of the recording-generation on the disc [1st-gen analogue or anything else]. [That the same units disable SP/DIF completely during HiMD playback is sort of irrelevant; if you put a 1st-gen analogue-sourced recording in there, you should be able to copy it digitally via SP/DIF under the old rules.]

Hmm, that brings me to the thought, that HiMD is unable to deal correctly with the SCMS-bits.

Or Onkyo simply uses the same digital section for the Bookshelfs as well as the standalone decks. Since those don't have SP/DIF-Out, the bookshelfs suffer from the same deficiency.

[dex Otaku]

It could be a little of both.

Another case in point: if you record on HiMD using an external D/A convertor jacked into the optical input, you can upload but not export this recording with SS. If HiMD/SS were respecting SCMS' rules, the fact that this is a 1st-gen recording [0th-gen copy] should make it copyable after-the-fact. This is a clear violation of SCMS.

[jadeclaw]

That the point of ignorance of the copyall-bit.

Digital-recordings are always marked as copyrighted and therefor

your first generation is in reality your second.

But that points to my thought about improper handling of the bits.

So, instead of storing the SCMS-bit, it stores the input type.

Btw, Muzzy has a nice commentary about thew issue:

Muzzy's rant and whine about Sony's XCP DRM system

Edited November 18, 2005 by jadeclaw

[dex Otaku]

[insert sound of "wrong answer" buzzer]

I don't know of -any- standalone D/A units with straight digital outs that don't mark their stream as SCMS '00' [copy allowed, first gen]. All digital recorders should respect this. Legacy MD equipment does [even consumer portables] as does DAT.

The way the SCMS bits SHOULD be recorded by -any- digital recorder should be identical whether you're using internal DAC or external DAC via SP/DIF. The generation is the same either way.

I agree that HiMD likely doesn't record SCMS information at all - only source type. This is where Sony have utterly violated the long-standing rules of copy "conduct" that people have lived with for 15+ years.

[Syrius]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11/17/so...nstaller_peril/

BOO, SONY! BOO!

If you are reading this Sony, you can rest assured none of my money will be going towards the purchase of another Sony product for the next five years. Only Microsoft could fall this low, yet, they have somehow amended their ways. You don't deserve my money. (I like my Hi-MD allright, but I bought it used. Heh)

[rei-gouki]

I just read the last line of that article, and it talked about Sony applying for a patent for a method of restricting their game software to "One Game, One Unit".

Yowza.

So basically, Sony wants to lock their games to a single solitary console? If in the near future, I have two consoles, I can't share the same disc between the two, but instead have to buy two copies of the same game?

A point of note here is the Blizzard seems to do fine getting people to buy many copies of the same game with a similar yet not type of lock. It only matters when connecting to battle.net One key for one computer at one time.

Mark Russinovich already pointed to the fact, that the ActiveX-Control used has more properties and functions than necessary.

Looks like the F4I-programmers just took an off-the-shelf control without checking first.

Sony hitting the panic button, probably. Give us something to fix it NOW!!!. Muzzy's rant mentioned above adds a bit of fuel to the fire with a Sony director on the F4I board...

Yup.

And if all fails, there is still the CD-player with digital out.

But it looks like, that F4I and SonyBMG are steering rapidly into very hot legal waters:

Muzzy's page about the whole thing

( Look under: ECDPlayerControl.ocx (violates LGPL, GPL, DMCA, EUCD) )

The gory details:

Proof, that F4I violates the GPL

Yes, we have a full blown GPL-violation here.

What does that mean: Since neither F4I nor SonyBMG had followed the obligations of the GPL,

they had no licence to distribute.

In other words: It is the same like selling pirated music or software - a full violation of copyright law.

Yes, a criminal offence.

Let's see, how the management explains that away.

I believe, "We are doing it to protect it therefore we can do whatever we like, including break it, to that effect." rings many a bell with most people... Unfortunately, knowing it doesn't seem to prevent it as it keeps popping up...

@rirsa: As usual, Bruce Schneier hits the nail on the head.

Can we really trust the vendors of security software?

Well, mutual respect between businesses would cause them to do so. F4I develops a piece of software to Sony's specifications and finds that antivirus software put up red flags. To save the work, afterall, they seem to already have cut corners using GPL code, they contact the AV companies and tell them, "We made this software, see. It's for Sony, see. Can we be on the exclude/ignore list?" If you had respect for Sony, what would you say?

And if you still say no, I'm sure Sony's vast pool of lawyers want to talk to you. Unfortunate but true that a lot of things, if not everything, boils down to a lawsuit these days.

Someone posted a response on his blog page asking what happend to the quote on a CNet story that goes like this in the original:

"The creator of the copy-protection software, a British company called First 4 Internet, said the cloaking mechanism was not a risk, and that its team worked closely with big antivirus companies such as Symantec to ensure that was the case."

If you go to the CNet site the story now reads:

"The creator of the copy-protection software, a British company called First 4 Internet, said the cloaking mechanism was not a risk. The company's team has worked regularly with big antivirus companies to ensure the safety of its software, and to make sure it is not picked up as a virus, he said"

Search for the story on Google and you can see the original version is still in the Google cache. They are all in bed with each other and guess who is getting #$%^*!?

Symantec probably just requested that their name be removed. It doesn't really detract from the story. If you think about it, the way it's worded now means Symantec doesn't get the lion's share of the blame, which is fairer in a sense. Why let the others go unscathed/lightly singed? It's true that the random net user won't be able to correlate between the statement "big antivirus companies" with names, but the only other way to be fair is to list all of them.

And as for the comment I saw (and forgot to quote) about the debacle affecting Sony only if it makes a decent dent in their coffers, the same sized dent will probably cripple them. And the clearing of upper decks... it's highly probably that those up there have an airtight contract to make of with millions when they leave or are fired. Clearing too many at a time will also probably crippled them.

Edited November 19, 2005 by rei-gouki

[Deanage]

I just read the last line of that article, and it talked about Sony applying for a patent for a method of restricting their game software to "One Game, One Unit".

Yowza.

So basically, Sony wants to lock their games to a single solitary console? If in the near future, I have two consoles, I can't share the same disc between the two, but instead have to buy two copies of the same game?

I really can't see this happening; Sony have got WAY too much to lose in the next-gen console wars (XBOX 360/ PS3/ Nintendo Revolution). Yes, Sony is ahead of the competition (and will continue to be in Japan), but as for the rest of the world Microsoft is going to prove to be a real headache for Sony, especially if Sony don't release their PS3 soon and at a good price. They've already said the PS3 will be expensive (in Australia at least, where all technology is expensive and decades behind [OMG electricity! ]).

Should they ditch the Blu-Ray drive to keep costs down as it will probably be irrelevant for those without a HD TV?

[jadeclaw]

Time for a quick update:

Sony insider: DRM is discredited at Sony

It looks like, the heat is growing at Sony HQ.

@PCManiac: BlueRay will stay in the PS3.

The fact, that moviestudios start supporting BlueRay has a reason: The PS3.

The studios know, that the console is used as a DVD-player as well.

It was the case with the xbox and the PS2.

Removing BlueRay from the PS3 will kill the format on end-user level.

And I'm not sure, if the disc-lock-feature will ever be used.

The simple fact, that a used game cannot be sold, will push off too many customers.

Speaking of push off, Canadian record shops start complaining about copyprotected CDs.

Copyprotection starts hurting the business:

Copy-protected CDs turning music fans off record buying: retailers say

The RIAA-President needed to vent about the affair as well, Groklaw Editor Pamela Jones has some nice words about that:

RIAA President on Sony's Rootkit: So What? Everybody Protects CDs

And finally some choice words from Brian Proffitt, Managing Editor of LinuxToday about the involvement of antivirus vendors with F4I:

Editor's Note: Putting Away the Welcome Mat

[rei-gouki]

I note that the link to Groklaw in the above post suggests that "Thanks to Sony, there are now millions of people who just got knowledgeable about DRM overnight." Though it was probably a little on the cynical side, on that thought, it's also entirely possible that parts of Sony engineered the rootkit to force a change. But that scenario looks a little too much like the story of Ghost in the Shell - Innocence, I suppose, in terms of hurting the customers to force an internal change.

But then if that is true, there are elements within Sony that deserve our thanks and support for making such a botched DRM that everyone is now under the spotlight.

On another note, I read that there were problems with d/l to iPod... would the same discs be problem free getting onto MD/HiMDs? That *would* be an certifiably evil method to make MDs matter again.

[dex Otaku]

SonicStage and Simple Burner are both in their DRM's "allowed" lists, so there should be no problems for either.

[jadeclaw]

As far as I know, Atrac3-tracks were included with the rootkit.

However, if you're not bright enough to disable Autorun,

it is possible to defeat the copyprotection:

Gaffer tape defeats Sony DRM rootkit

Hmm, a felt tip pen should do the job too?

Note: When using tape, put a similar sized piece of tape on the opposite side of the disc to keep the weight balanced.

This trick could also work on other protected CDs.

When using a pen, use one, that can be removed with rubbing alcohol.

[jadeclaw]

Things are getting ugly for Sony-BMG:

First, the EFF has filed a class action lawsuit regarding XCP AND Sunncomm MediaMax,

second, the state of Texas has filed a lawsuit too, alleging the violation of state anti-spyware laws.

Despite Sony's claims of calling back the CDs, state officials were able to buy them as late as sunday evening.

The Attorney General asks the court for US$100 000 per violation.

I think, we can safely guess, the legal costs alone for Sony will be magnitudes higher than any loss in sales this DRM-system has ever prevented.

[rei-gouki]

The Gaffer Tape article would suggest that DRM is only perfectly effective against people who don't seek means to circumvent it, further backing the view that it's there to spy on the honest citizens...

But inking the second session is a pretty old trick.

[rirsa]

Here's a pre-Mark Russinovich discussion of the Sony rootkit that goes back to August. Nice details on all the nasty stuff it can do to really screw up your system.

http://castlecops.com/postx130470-0-0.html

[Deanage]

@PCManiac: BlueRay will stay in the PS3.

The fact, that moviestudios start supporting BlueRay has a reason: The PS3.

The studios know, that the console is used as a DVD-player as well.

It was the case with the xbox and the PS2.

Removing BlueRay from the PS3 will kill the format on end-user level.

And I'm not sure, if the disc-lock-feature will ever be used.

The simple fact, that a used game cannot be sold, will push off too many customers.

Excellent response. No really, it is.

I'm more worried about Blu-Ray pushing up the costs of the PS3 for Sony and the end-user. Do you really want to go and buy your movie collection all over again on Blu-Ray? Will it even be the huge leap forward from DVD like DVD was from VHS or will it be used only by home theatre junkies, much like how DVD-A/SACD is used by audiophiles?

If Sony uses a game-lock feature they'd better expect to get owned by Microsoft. Sure, someone will develop a crack/mod chip but if Joe average, who knows nothing about what's inside his PS3 (he just wants to go home and play it, not muck about getting chips installed), can't sell or buy 2nd hand games then do you think he'll want to keep it? How are you going to be able to hire out games from the video store? The end of "try before you buy" = end of PS3*.

*(I'm sure a few fanboys will stay on but fanboys can't keep a mega expensive business like game hardware/software development [or electronics] profitable. Dreamcast? MD in Australia?)

[jadeclaw]

BlueRay will push up the cost - For Sony. Not the end-user.

Game-consoles are sold at a loss with the hope, that the gain is made on selling development licenses and distribution licence fees.

And the end-user price of the PS3 depends only on the loss, that Microsoft is willing to accept per box sold and vice versa.

You know, how it works with inkjet printers - Sell the printer cheap, then fleece the user with the cartridges.

@rirsa: I'm wondering myself a bit, but CastleCops isn't as known as Sysinternals and the magnitude of the problem isn't really coming out as visible as Marks analysis shows.

@rei-gouki: DRM on CDs is only for dimmest bulbs among computer users.

But a new thought came up on me, while floating around in the bathtub, as I start wondering, who is the victim here.

I'm under the impression, that SonyBMG and other record labels are being fleeced by Sunncomm and the likes, while at the same time the managements of the labels in their piracy paranoia are unable to see the fraud being pulled off on them.

As long as a CD is designed to be playable on all CD-players, any form of copyprotection doesn't work.

Any DRM-maker claiming something different, is effectively lying to their customers.

And lying to customers is fraud, right?

[hobgoblin]

sadly its only fraud if your not a member of any of the AA's or have bought some politicans and/or judges...

[Artstar]

Software like CDRoller or BadCopyPro can select any session present on the disc and thus extract the data.

However, before paying for that, you might check, what is included with your CD-Writer software.

I think, Nero has a session selector included in the package.

Or in short guys, go to http://www.slysoft.com

This site is truly the epitomy of DVD/CD related software and removing/bypassing any and all known copy protection schemes out there (using the AnyDVD program of course).

As an experiment, I had a Sony CD of Pete Murray (thanks to Minidisc Australia for the super cheap deal on my now 2nd/spare MZ-NH1!!) included in my NH1's bundle and I checked it. Lo and behold, it was copy protected with that crappy software. However, when I inserted it into my PC, I saw only the audio tracks. Upon further inspection with CloneCD, I saw the data track which had that damn software. Why wasn't I affected?

1) No autoplay (as we all know by now - I switched that feature off nearly 10 years ago ... never liked it).

2) AnyDVD bypassed the data track altogether after noticing it was an audio CD with a data track.

Long and short of it, SlySoft rule and I get to use my CD's exactly how I like to and that's what's important as a paying customer.

[jadeclaw]

It was option 2.

The AnyDVD description is quite clear about this.

@hobgoblin: That is true, especially the US, where corruption is running rampant and is legal, if you call it campaign contribution.

[lyceemoliere]

It was option 2.

The AnyDVD description is quite clear about this.

@hobgoblin: That is true, especially the US, where corruption is running rampant and is legal, if you call it campaign contribution.

Does this virus live in all sony cd's? what labels should I look for? If you dont download songs to ss but just use simple burner- does the virus get access to your computer? how can you find the virus?

[A440]

Right now, before going any further, disable Autoplay on your CD drive.

Open My Computer, right-click your CD drive, click Properties, and turn off Autoplay (put the dot in Prompt Me) for EVERY KIND OF FILE. Do it now if you haven't already.

That way, an infected CD won't automatically open evil software.

SonicStage and Simple Burner are completely separate from this whole mess. I've found Simple Burner can't even read one of these copy-protected CDs to transfer it. (That's with a Sony CD-Sony VAIO computer--Sony Simple Burner Software--Sony MD. At Sony, the right hand doesn't have a clue what the left hand is doing.)

On the poisoned CDs, there is usually--but not always, ha ha--a white circle with a black triangle with a C in the triangle visible on the front of the CD packaging.

On the back is a printed box--usually designed to blend in with the rest of the design so as not to alarm you--that says: Compatible With. Get out your magnifying glass: in tiny type is ?cp.sonybmg.com/xcp ---that's for the rootkit program that got them in trouble--or cp.sonybmg.com/sunncomm , which is another piece of evil garbage. A few CDs with the box don't have the copy protection; a few unmarked CDs DO have it. (The kind of attention to detail we've always loved about Sony.)

If you have ever inserted a CD in your computer and had something pop up saying--Install this Media Player to play this CD--and you have clicked I Agree and installed it, the vulnerability might be there. If you have inserted a Suncomm protected CD and REFUSED to install the player, it still leaves some invasive stuff on your hard drive.

To see if you have been affected by XCP, open Wordpad, type a little bit, and save the file under a name beginning $sys$ (and then continuing, like $sys$SueSonyNow ). Close Wordpad, go to Search and search for that file. If it comes up, you're OK. If not, the Sony software has hidden all files beginning with $sys$, including potential viruses, and you're a rootkit victim.

For Suncomm, search for a SunnComm Shared folder in C:\Program Files\Common Files and for sbcphid anywhere in your computer.

More information here:

http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/?p=925

Unfortunately, all you can do with Sony at the moment is download another piece of garbage software that makes sure that $sys$ can't hide any more. But it's 4MB, which means it's doing a lot more. Run an updated antivirus program and see if it will fix things before using XCP's fix, which is on the cp.sonybmg.com/xcp page.

For a list of affected CDs, try this:

http://www.upsrow.com/sonybmg/

I think that's the United States list--it may be different if you are in another country.

If you own any affected CDs, Sony promises to replace them and even pay shipping. It took them two weeks to get around to that, and it's not enough.

If you own an infected CD, before you send it back you can use:

CDex

http://cdexos.sourceforge.net/ (though at the moment I'm having trouble getting that link for some reason)

EDIT: Here's a working link:

http://www.free-codecs.com/CDex_download.htm

AnyDVD (as above)

or Exact Audio Copy

http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

to extract the audio files that you the law-abiding customer paid for. Save them as .wav files and burn a usable CD.

Edited November 28, 2005 by A440

[KrazyIvan]

Just to add to A440's comments, don't login with an account that has admin rights. Use a limited account that cannot install software.

[Killroy]

Hello,

just to add another 2 (Euro-) cents to A440's precious tips, for those who don't already know: to permanently disable Windows AutoPlay for ALL CD-drives, do as follows:

> Log in with an administrator account.

> Launch the Windows registry editor (Start -> Run -> type in "regedit").

> Locate registry key HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Cdrom\AutoRun

> Open the key with double-click or <enter> and replace the standard value of 1 by 0 (it makes no

difference, if you specify THIS value in binary or hex- format ;-))

> Close the key edit box and the registry editor - almost done.

> The change will take effect after the next reboot (that's Windows...)

Cheers - Killroy.

[rirsa]

Running as non-admin, as suggested above by various members, makes a lot of sense. The SonyBMG rootkit needs admin privileges to install.

EWeek just did some tests using indentical W2K and XP systems running different user privileges. After visiting lots of nasty web sites, here's what they found:

"Using this software, Sunbelt Software Inc.'s CounterSpy 1.5, we scanned each system, totaling the number of threats found as well as the grand total of threat instances detected. We found a vast degree of difference among the three user memberships. On our Windows 2000 Professional client with User permissions only, none of the malware installed completely and two threats actually warned that the user had insufficient privileges. A third loaded a malicious process into memory, but the threat did not reappear after reboot. The Sunbelt scan performed after the reboot could find only a single threat, which consisted of one file in the browser cache. The systems managed by Administrators were not nearly as fortunate: On the Windows 2000-based system, CounterSpy found 19 threats consisting of three memory processes, 503 files and 2,500 registry keys—all of which had installed...."

One of the innovations in Vista, supposely, is that privileges will be set to user by default and managing privileges will be much easier. At the moment running as non-admin can be problematic depending on what you do and the software you use (some legitimate software--including certain anti-virus products (doh!)--won't run properly without admin privileges). For details on running as non-admin and managing privileges see:

http://nonadmin.editme.com/

Also see:

http://blogs.msdn.com/aaron_margosis/archi...OfContents.aspx

[rirsa]

"The music and film industries are demanding that the European parliament extends the scope of proposed anti-terror laws to help them prosecute illegal downloaders."

From UK Guardian quoted on http://www.schneier.com/blog/

[A440]

One of the innovations in Vista, supposely, is that privileges will be set to user by default and managing privileges will be much easier.

From what I've read about Vista, it's going to have DRM built in. There will be the equivalent of a rootkit in software AND hardware--there will be parts of your OWN computer that you can't access. It's billed as security, and I'm sure it's a barrier against malware, but it's also to prevent you from copying those precious CDs and DVDs. Media playback will run through some kind of user-inaccessible black box that only permits authorized uses, to be set by the seller.

I'm not much of a tech geek, but when I read about Vista, it just makes me imagine something like SonicStage controlling access to every file in your computer.

Innovations? Try "restrictions on user control." I hope the uproar over the Sony tricks is going to make people look twice before Microsoft and the media conglomerates cripple our computers further. I know that I'm getting my next computer before Vista/Palladium or whatever Microsoft eventually calls it becomes the standard OS.

[rirsa]

From what I've read about Vista, it's going to have DRM built in.

Maybe. There is a lot of ink being spilt on Vista and DRM. It is not very clear to me what's going on.

I would say that Microsoft is in a very different position than Sony and other content providers. In some respects Microsoft is caught between the consumer and the content providers. They want to keep the conyent providers reasonably happy but the bottom line is that MS wants to sell lots of copies of Vista, which they won't do if Vista is perceived as limiting content-user rights.

Edited November 28, 2005 by rirsa

[dex Otaku]

I would say that Microsoft is in a very different position than Sony and other content providers. In some respects Microsoft is caught between the consumer and the content providers. They want to keep the conyent providers reasonably happy but the bottom line is that MS wants to sell lots of copies of Vista, which they won't do if Vista is perceived as limiting content-user rights.

This is a valid and serious point.

One possible argument against .. The vast majority of users are completely ignorant as to what an OS does. Most people buy a computer, not an operating system. The OS is simply something that's there when they buy it, and even if they're previous computers users, the only things they'll really notice are the changes that have occurred since the last version they used that mean they have to relearn all kinds of things they don't and likely never will understand.

I've been a technician and consultant since I was in high school, and I'd have to say that the vast majority of the clients I've worked with couldn't have cared less about whether their computer ran DOS or Windows of any version. All they cared about was that they could do their word-processing, their home accounting, or check their email.

This is a large part of how MS manages to penetrate the market so far with such vastly inferior "products" as Internet Explorer, Windows Media Player, &c. People don't care about the internals; they just want the thing to work - and usually to be cheap as well.

MS want to sell lots of copies of Vista, but the truth is that the majority of their average-consumer customers simply don't care about it, or XP, or 2000, or linux, or OS X, or NextStep, or ... you get the idea. They just want something that works [which, it could be argued, Windows in its many versions has not].

The real testing point comes about when the customers are faced with issues like those presented by SonicStage - suddenly they can't do what they've always been doing, nothing works the way they expect, and they have limitations placed on them at every turn. Not only this, but they appear to have no choice whatsoever in the matter; they are victims of lock-in from the get-go, and don't even realise it until it's long since too late.

My hope is that Vista includes DRM, and that ordinary customers all around the world will suddenly realise what a piece of unremitting crap they've been sold without having any real [perceived] choice in the matter. I don't honestly expect average users to suddenly migrate to linux or something, but I sincerely hope that vast numbers of people will raise unholy hell with the corporations that are making decisions for us as consumers, without ever consulting us on the matter.

As for myself, I can't see myself upgrading until hardware driver unavailability forces me to. I fully expect Vista to be festooned with all kinds of limitations that will crimp my normal workflow with digital media to such a degree as to make it next to useless.

I'd rather stick with the evil I'm familiar with, when it comes down to it. Maybe a couple of years after Vista's introduction, after some of the tools have been developed to unbreak the myriad problems it creates in an effort to impose BS rules on consumers, I'll consider switching.

My real hope is that by then, the production tools for linux will have evolved enough to permit actual work to be done when using it as an OS. At the moment, the tools I use have me suffering lock-in to Windows, which honestly peeves me, but then - I'm not a software developer, so I can't exactly make something as complicated as Photoshop myself [and yes, I've been using the Gimp since about 1997, but it's simply not as good or as usable as Photoshop; kind of like how Audacity doesn't do half of what I'd need it to].

Either that, or that Apple manages to wake up and lower the price of Macs by at least another 20%.

[tommypeters]

What M$ wants with Vista, DRM and video/audio is/seems to be this:

* A user should be able to upload a CD, DVD or HD-DVD to a Media Server running Vista. DRM should make it impossible (hard) to copy that stuff to another location/media.

* A network of display devices like TV sets, wireless tablet PCs, projectors, "music boxes"... should be able to "tap" the information from the server in any room of the house.

* One copy of a CD/DVD should (probably) be allowed, but that copy would be "uncopyable".

[dex Otaku]

I have already seen problems with WinXP and certain displays with games that force directx to check for secured display devices.. forcing users who own LCD panels with DVI interfaces that lack the security feature to use analogue RGB because the displays simply go black when you attempt to play the games [MS games, incidentally].

I fully expect to see this built in to Vista, basically rendering many HDTV and LCD displays completely useless when using the DVI interface.

It's pretty sad, really.

[mercury_in_flames]

ok. my turn to be a noobie boobie, what the hell is this ms vista? What happened to longhorn? Is microsoft going to MAKE US change o.s to accomodate their drm? scuse for being noobish here.