MiniDisc as a Data Storage Device?

[Crs]

Hi, nice to meet you all!

I have searched the forums and found some very useful information, but something I can not confirm are my queries about using a Mini Disc as a data storage device.

All I am wanting to know is if I was to get a HiMD recorder, can I simply plug in a USB cable from the unit in to a PC and see it as a "Removable Drive" within Windows that I can copy files to. (Without having to have installed any software prior to connecting - So I could use this for files to work and home)

If "yes" then I would like to know:

1) how it handles when a disk is swapped out - does the drive in windows dissapear when there is no disc insterted?

2) how does the transfer speed compare to.. say a zip disc?

3) finally, if it was possible to use it as a simple file storage device could I use my 100's of OLD normal blank MD discs for the very same reason at a lower capacity?

If HiMD units work like this then I am definately buying one!

And I really appreciate your time in reading and hopefully answering the questions, thank you.

P.S. I know you are required to use the specific software to put music on to a disc.

[atrain]

1/ yes

2/ ?

3/ you need to format them on the himd but yes

no software is required to use UMS on most pcs, win98se or later, modern mac & most linux distros

[KrazyIvan]

2. It is just slightly faster than Zip but pretty close from what I remember.

[Roamer]

2) it is limited by USB1 and drive mechanism.

Zip drives has been made in various format (100, 250, 700 Mb) and connectors (parallele, IDE, SCSI, USB ...), so this can vary a lot ...

[greenmachine]

1) no, but you can't access it

2) about 30-35min/1GB = ~0.5MB/sec under ideal conditions (one big file), otherwise even slower

3) they will be formatted to ~305MB (80min MD)

[KrazyIvan]

I should have been specific, this is compared to Zip 250 SCSI.

[Sparky191]

Theres a reason why software comes on a CD/DVD instead of 3000 floppy disks. Even external HD's are cheap now. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean that its a good idea.

[Crs]

Brilliant! thanks for your replies, and very quick ones too!

Sorry I wasnt being too specific, I wasn't looking for benchmark results instead I wanted a general idea on speed. I had imagined it to be pretty slow but if it is similar to a ZIP drive thats fine by me.

To format a disc - is that done by windows or special software?

Thanks a lot for all your replies guys!

[Sparky191]

It feels a lot slower. But its years since I used a Zip disc.

Format via SonicStage or the MD unit itself.

Its fine for small bits of data, a document or two. But forget it for large volumes of data.

[tekdroid]

To format a disc - is that done by windows or special software?

They say to use SonicStage and not Windows in the manual (all manuals are downloadable, btw). I've never tried it, since all the discs I have tried in my Hi-MD unit are blank and automatically default to Hi-MD mode and I have no use for the old MD mode.

BTW, Zip 250 SCSI is supposed to be 2.4MB/s sustained transfer rate. Assuming similar speeds for reading & writing, your current Zip drive will be MUCH faster than MD. They certainly felt that way last time I tried them (though last Zips I played with were the 100MB models).

MD is reaaaaaaaly slow. To copy 280MB the other day (as a single file) I timed it to 15 minutes. It turned out to be just over 300KB/s. This was on an old 98 machine in a public library whose hard drive was being hammered a little at the same time. But MD seems to be great for smaller files. And they are convenient and USB bus-powered little drives, and I still regard them as far safer than a HD or Zip. But speed? No way it can compete.

[Sparky191]

A 1GB Flash memory stick is waaaaaay faster.

[Human]

Hi, nice to meet you all!

I have searched the forums and found some very useful information, but something I can not confirm are my queries about using a Mini Disc as a data storage device.

All I am wanting to know is if I was to get a HiMD recorder, can I simply plug in a USB cable from the unit in to a PC and see it as a "Removable Drive" within Windows that I can copy files to. (Without having to have installed any software prior to connecting - So I could use this for files to work and home)

If "yes" then I would like to know:

1) how it handles when a disk is swapped out - does the drive in windows dissapear when there is no disc insterted?

2) how does the transfer speed compare to.. say a zip disc?

3) finally, if it was possible to use it as a simple file storage device could I use my 100's of OLD normal blank MD discs for the very same reason at a lower capacity?

If HiMD units work like this then I am definately buying one!

And I really appreciate your time in reading and hopefully answering the questions, thank you.

P.S. I know you are required to use the specific software to put music on to a disc.

1/ yes

2/ ?

3/ you need to format them on the himd but yes

no software is required to use UMS on most pcs, win98se or later, modern mac & most linux distros

1) no, but you can't access it

2) about 30-35min/1GB = ~0.5MB/sec under ideal conditions (one big file), otherwise even slower

3) they will be formatted to ~305MB (80min MD)

Wow , - !! How easy it is to get wrong answer.

One must be careful.

Double checking is OF big help.

This is prove that Forum with many members can correct it's self.

[atrain]

thanks human, don't know what i'd do without you. i might find out one day though.

[Human]

thanks human, don't know what i'd do without you. i might find out one day though.

Just treat me like a human being, Please

Thanks.

What I did wrong , NOow ?

Cheeers,.....

[Killroy]

To format a disc - is that done by windows or special software?

Hello,

Windows explorer and the DOS format command can format a HiMd disc, but the MD unit will report a "Format or Disc error" whenever you insert a such formatted disc, and it will offer you to "format: yes-no" this disc, although the contents are still accessible for Windows. If you choose the wrong option then, your data on the disc will be lost...

Another point to consider is the fact, that data on MiniDisc can only be accessed by MiniDisc devices which are less commonly available than CD/DVD-drives, for example. Just because of this, I'd strongly recommend to use a more common format to archive your data.

Cheers - Killroy

[atrain]

Hello,

Windows explorer and the DOS format command can format a HiMd disc, but the MD unit will report a "Format or Disc error" whenever you insert a such formatted disc, and it will offer you to "format: yes-no" this disc, although the contents are still accessible for Windows. If you choose the wrong option then, your data on the disc will be lost...

Another point to consider is the fact, that data on MiniDisc can only be accessed by MiniDisc devices which are less commonly available than CD/DVD-drives, for example. Just because of this, I'd strongly recommend to use a more common format to archive your data.

Cheers - Killroy

that's a fair point. the fact most of the users are regarding formatting as the process himd/ss uses to make it mass storage & atrac3+ compliant rather than to format in the traditional pc manner. they do both clear all data of the disc though.

[Prof.OND]

take note also that HiMD is a lot faster in copying 1 large 280 MB file then 280 1 MB files.

Probably due to rewriting the index every time you add a file.

[Archivist]

Isn't this the case with computers in general? I have long noticed that burning CDs or transferring data takes longer when the same amount of data is in a number of small files.

[hobgoblin]

A 1GB Flash memory stick is waaaaaay faster.

and currently way more expensive to.

alltho it seems to be dropping by the year.

kinda reminds me about how the intel chips became so cheap, nasa orderd a whole lot of them for the moon mission. intel then turned around and sold the leftovers to other companys...

basicly, the flash based ipods and similar are diving the production of flash memory thru the roof and therefor the cost thru the floor

still, the cost is nowhere near the point where one can pick up a box of 10-20 flash units and then hand then of to friends and similar if need be.

Edited December 17, 2005 by hobgoblin

[Sparky191]

and currently way more expensive to....still, the cost is nowhere near the point where one can pick up a box of 10-20 flash units and then hand then of to friends and similar if need be.

Thats not a valid comparision. You need to include the cost of the HiMD unit. How else can they read the HiMD disk? When a CDR/DVDR's are so cheap its nuts to use a HiMD. $1 vs $8. Basically as a data transport, HiMD can't compete on cost, speed, availablity or capacity. Theres always something better. Its a music recorder. Deal with it.

[e1ghtyf1ve]

Thats not a valid comparision. You need to include the cost of the HiMD unit. How else can they read the HiMD disk? When a CDR/DVDR's are so cheap its nuts to use a HiMD. $1 vs $8. Basically as a data transport, HiMD can't compete on cost, speed, availablity or capacity. Theres always something better. Its a music recorder. Deal with it.

My DVD dual layer burner is great and all that, until bit-rot inevitably sets in.

Stability Study

[Sparky191]

I'm more worried about crotch rot...

[tekdroid]

Hi-MD is a great complement to CD/DVD, I reckon.

Simply 'cause it's truly portable and drag-n-drop. So is flash media. And external HDs.

Reason why I prefer Hi-MD over some other formats some of the time:

* seen several properly-cared-for HDs crash (and die) many times, but not Hi-MD (though some forums posts suggest iffy unit reliability...)

* cheap (buying a $99 MZ-NH600 (or whatever) from minidisc.com.au and loading it with 2GB+ worth of blanks is easy and far more cost-effective than equivalent flash prices)*

* removable media and I have a long love affair (ahem..)

* I love true portability (CD/DVD are a bit bulky, and even MD is looking big compared to flash media nowadays, lol)

* I love protective cartridges and the ease-of-handling

* useful to attach to a machine you need to work on and change files with without burning CDs or DVDs every change - the files can be changed, added and deleted easily direct-to-disc within the OS.

*you can say external HDs are even cheaper (and far faster), but to me they're just not an option for archival due to their random crashyness. I would never feel my data is safe on a HD when transporting from A-to-B without a proper optical back-up. Flash and MD I'm ok with, though. Just a personal thing. That extends to HD-based music players too. I just can't buy them, despite their advantages in some areas, I regard them as temporary (and crash-worthy) storage, at best.

It's also nice to bring along 1-2GB of data to a computer with no DVD drive that you need to give some files to (among an assortment of many small files), without carrying several bulky CDs (and where speed of just installing small files is a non-issue).

Re: longevity study linked above

That study tested extremes. I still have CDs from 97 with no problems, tho today the CD/DVD prices have imploded and I guess it's easier to get burned with bad quality discs, but still, extremes are something I've never subjected my discs to.

I've never had one bad experience with optical media that's properly cared for/stored, so maybe my faith is too trusting, but I believe in quality media 100%. I think MD quality is far better than the average CD/DVD selling on the street now, and certainly far better than rewritable CD/DVD (with the possibly notable exception of my lovely Panasonic DVD-RAMs in cartridges, which are truly remarkable...)

typo edit

Edited December 18, 2005 by tekdroid

[Sparky191]

I dunno what you quys are doing to your HD's. I have one here thats over 10yrs old a 230mb drive in an old Quadra. Still perfect.

[tekdroid]

I dunno what you quys are doing to your HD's. I have one here thats over 10yrs old a 230mb drive in an old Quadra. Still perfect.

In about 10 years, I've had 2 of my own HDs fail on me (out of maybe 7 drives, daily use). Both times pretty annoying. I still have some oldies going strong (but mostly collecting dust nowadays). Some HDs run fine for years...but there's always this uncertainty with 'em that doesn't sit well with me.

And I guess people tend to chuck their systems at me when their HD fails, too. So I guess the bad perception sticks. In any case, I always back up important files to optical and leave the HD to handle more mundane OS and program files that can easily be re-installed / re-imaged.

[Sparky191]

I work in IT and a drive failing, while it does happen is pretty rare compared to the number of drives in use. Last year I'd work on a migration project where we replaced about 3000 PC's and laptops. All of which were between 5 and 10yrs old. In 4 months We saw about 2 drive failures. In both cases the data was recoverable. I've about 30 MD's and 3 players. I've had about 2 go bad, and one player. Of my own HD's I must have had about 20 or so and I only had one go bad and I didn't lose data. But if there was a significant amount of hard disks failing then they wouldn't be used for backup. Obviously in siuations where drives are in heavy use, 24/7 like on a server its more frequent than in a desktop. But even so, in a server farm a drive failing isn't that common.

[tekdroid]

I work in IT and a drive failing, while it does happen is pretty rare compared to the number of drives in use.

then you know about IBM's bad particularly bad run of drives and Fujitsu, too? Of course IBM sold their operations to Hitachi and Fujitsu no longer make desktop 3.5 IDE drives.

Sure it's a small percentage compared to the drives out there, but I've seen enough of it to personally not trust my important data to them. I see enough RMAs on non-problem (current) models where they fail too. I personally don't put much faith in them. YMMV.

[Sparky191]

Must make it hard to use a PC.

For corporations and other enterprises the HD is kinda useful Maybe they don't have any thing as important as Music though...

[e1ghtyf1ve]

Must make it hard to use a PC.

For corporations and other enterprises the HD is kinda useful Maybe they don't have any thing as important as Music though...

What odd responses! Crotch rot??

About the government study: Yes, those were extreme test conditions. We've easily found failures in "ideal" conditions as well.

Anyway, it's obvious that MD is much too slow for everyday non-musical data storage. Important stuff gets backed up to DLT or sometimes DVD+R DL for shipping. BTW, we have fired technicians for using HDs as backups. Every couple of years we get a joker who thinks he can play with our data. When the HDs fail, out the door they go! If it's on a RAID that needs a rebuild, they get one warning. Luckily, we can weed out most bad apples during the screening interviews.

When I hold up some CD-Rs we made back in 1996 to a bright light, I see clear patches in the dye layer, where data is gone forever. Some other disks are fine. They were all stored in metal cabinets, air conditioned. Carefully stored DLT and DATs of similar age read fine without exception. That's why media such as DLT are the de facto industry standard backup solution, and have been for many years. Deal with it.

Cheers

[Sparky191]

For the love of....its called humour. Look it up...

The point I'm making (and obviously badly) is that HD's aren't that unreliable otherwise you couldn't even use them for storing/processing live data in enterprise/critical systems. Obviously a RAID caters for fault tolerance in that enviroment and you have apropriate archival backup process. If your techs can circumvent the procedure so easily well thats a different problem . For critical backup obviously DLT or similar is industry practice. But I reckon its hardly appropriate for someones music collection.

Having a simply HD backup is sufficient for 99% of home users The majority of people don't have backups, so a complex system of tape just isn't going to get used. They'll do it for a while then get bored with it. It has to be a simple and non intrusive system. Thats not tape, which requires discipline. Even in IT departments its a hassle.

Everyone around here seems to have HD failures constantly. Thats just not right. But hey if people think HiMD is the way to go for backup go for it. Its only your own time you're wasting. Personally I'd run a mile from proprietary hardware to hold my data.

If you want to win a pissing contest that HiMD is the most reliable medium ever then go ahead. I've lost interest in this. The OP wanted to know could he use it for his data. The answer is yes. Personally I wouldn't.

Edited December 18, 2005 by Sparky191

[e1ghtyf1ve]

Try not to get upset, Sparky - you'll live longer!

tekdroid, I can really empathize with your feelings about MD as a data storage device. For my tastes, it's just too slow, as I mentioned in my (unedited) postings above, for daily data storage. For music, however, HiMD is my replacement for CD-R, just as classic MD was for cassette tape.

I've never had one of my own HDs fail me yet (knock on wood). Even my 20MB drive from my old XT still boots DOS 3.2. My problem is that everybody else's drives seem to crash all the time. This really reduces my confidence in them

Cheers

[tekdroid]

Try not to get upset, Sparky - you'll live longer!

tekdroid, I can really empathize with your feelings about MD as a data storage device. For my tastes, it's just too slow, as I mentioned in my (unedited) postings above, for daily data storage. For music, however, HiMD is my replacement for CD-R, just as classic MD was for cassette tape.

I've never had one of my own HDs fail me yet (knock on wood). Even my 20MB drive from my old XT still boots DOS 3.2. My problem is that everybody else's drives seem to crash all the time. This really reduces my confidence in them

It's ALL subjective, when it comes down to it. I just happen to think MD is the RIGHT product in certain circumstances - some of these circumstances I can see Average Joe get a lot of use from; saving his little files to, and working on files among different computers without burning software hassles.

Each of us will have different experiences with different formats or technologies and we'll make decisions based on our trust/untrust of them. Personally I do almost all back-up on DVD-RAM these days, but if I have to go to another computer, I am not gonna lug big things around. I will definitely just use MD and enjoy the music while I'm travelling there.

So I feel a drag-n-drop format is ideal. MD is one a few that I personally trust (I have less trust in music transfers with SonicStage, tho). CD and DVD RW formats I personally use like HDs ie. temporary data and don't trust them for long-term stuff (they've been proven iffy to me..). MD's advantage right now (at least in Australia)? Cheap

I'll be the last to recommend it for bulk data archival. Obvioulsy another format or tech would be more suitable in those circumstances. As I say, it's a great complement to CD/DVD. And even (evil) HD Each has their uses.

[ozpeter]

I've just been trying a USB OTG Bridge with Hi-MD - and it doesn't like it. The object was to have the means to offload digital photos to Hi-MD while on holiday, rather than heave a laptop around, but although the Hi-MD machine does act as if connected to a PC (in terms of the appropriate display showing) the bridge box hangs. It does work from the camera to another memory card, but that's rather pointless. Having heard that it's possible to use a Hi-MD machine with a USB audio device, I did think it would work with the bridge. Maybe it would with a different bridge device. The brand of this one is "Laser".

[atrain]

I've just been trying a USB OTG Bridge with Hi-MD - and it doesn't like it. The object was to have the means to offload digital photos to Hi-MD while on holiday, rather than heave a laptop around, but although the Hi-MD machine does act as if connected to a PC (in terms of the appropriate display showing) the bridge box hangs. It does work from the camera to another memory card, but that's rather pointless. Having heard that it's possible to use a Hi-MD machine with a USB audio device, I did think it would work with the bridge. Maybe it would with a different bridge device. The brand of this one is "Laser".

i'd assume it'll only work with the sony device. md stuff isn't know for playing nice with more open formats.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00061O52...glance&n=172282

[Sparky191]

I've just been trying a USB OTG Bridge with Hi-MD - and it doesn't like it. The object was to have the means to offload digital photos to Hi-MD while on holiday, rather than heave a laptop around, but although the Hi-MD machine does act as if connected to a PC (in terms of the appropriate display showing) the bridge box hangs. It does work from the camera to another memory card, but that's rather pointless. Having heard that it's possible to use a Hi-MD machine with a USB audio device, I did think it would work with the bridge. Maybe it would with a different bridge device. The brand of this one is "Laser".

Probably would work if the storage device is self powered. I'm assuming the HiMD isn't once you connect it to USB.

[minidix]

Has anyone tried to use Drivespace on Hi-MD disks? Theoretically it has to work, Hi-MDs are FAT 32 disks. You will get 2GB data space on a single MD but most important, the transfer speed may double. For such a slow device like minidisc, it's important.

OK, you won't be able to use a compressed disk for music. But for data it would be great

[Sparky191]

Drivespace? You've got to be kidding....

[DerTapir]

Hello, I am from germany and hopefully, you will not laugh about my english

I think that a HI-MD can be used as a data storage, depending on how the person wants to use it ?

I mean :

A) For FAST data transfer ( in order to port it to an other system ) there while be better solutions

For longtime storage or daily backup (most often done in the night) for my opinion its perfect

Because: The MD like all optical devices is one of the savest data storage products. (nearly undestroyable

in magnetic fields, good heat resistance (except maybe the case !!) only the combination of heat AND magnetic

fields may cause problems.

In most cases, you use 5 up to 7 backup media (for each day...) do it with a stick or HDD-> realy expensive

Is one media broken, try to get DDS tape in a supermarket on saturday 4 pm ....no chance. Run to wall mart,

buying an MD (or if you are lucky a HiMD) is much easier !!!

Another point is the point of accessibility. (hope that this word excists )

How many peaple own a hi-MD drive ? so: when your disk will be stolen, you will be much saver,

because only a view people are able to read the media. when a HDD or DVD is stolen, nearly everybody is able

to read the media. (in combination with a encrytion you are "double save" with an HIMD !!!)

The only problem i see, is the power supply for a HiMD recorder. If it is possible to use both...power

connection AND USB (or better USB will power the device) that would be great. but i dont know if this works

(Does anybody know ??)

thats my opinion for MiniDisc as a Data Storage Device !!!

PS: I hope i will get an Sony MZ-NH1 for christmas !!!

[minidix]

Drivespace? You've got to be kidding....

You mean you tried and didn't work? What was the problem?

[e1ghtyf1ve]

Drivespace is based on an ancient relic by a different name from the days of slower hard drives and faster CPUs - use software to do on-the-fly compression/decompression. Back around 1991 or so, this did two things; speed up data transfers, and increase the effective storage capacity by as much as 100%. It also required stringent backup habits, as malfunctions often resulted in lost data.

Interesting idea, though. Might be worth a shot.