My Take On Minidisc

[Gregor]

I am a musician, and a music lover, from a young age.

I still remember when about 15 years ago I saw somebody at my university with a Minidisc unit. I will never forget seeing it for the first time. CD walkmans were becoming normal for students to have, but this thing was small and the disc was protected and tiny.

Of course, I grew up buying tapes and LPs, getting them for birthdays and christmas, and it wasnt until after the MDs came out that I got my first CD Player in a mini hifi unit.

Heres my take on why I still like the MD:

The MD is the TRUE successor to the most pure form of music in my opinion, which is the LP.

Yes, the cassette tape, and the compact disc were popular, and to some extent still are.

But honestly, the Minidisc is the shrunk down version of the record in appearance, its the record that you can put in your pocket, and its the record that will RECORD.

I still believe that for this reason, the Minidisc is still king for those who appreciate music.

Yes, I own MP3 players, and let me tell you, they are SOULless. Downloading music and dragging and dropping is convenient, but so is watching movies on a 10 inch portable DVD.

Listening to an ATRAC or PCM concert, gig, or that CD or LP that I have transferred/recorded, well thats like viewing a Panavision film on the big screen.

What an amazing fantastic invention. I want to see the MD live, thrive, I want to see hand crank powered ones, what an amazing fantastic invention.

The are the true successors to the great sound we enjoyed on LPs. It's like a professional LP player, that can also record, and it fits on your desk or in your pocket. Amazing.

I don't remember why I bought it except that I was excited by MDs, but in about 2003 I bought my first MD unit. It was a MZ-N910 and I used it until it went to MD valhalla after a lot of use. I loved the jog dial on that machine.

Now I use daily a MZ-NH1, an almost perfect piece of machinery and technology.

I am going to purchase a Hi-MD mini hi fi Deck like an Onkyo or Sharp or Sony.

I really think that MDs are about experiencing life, you can swap discs with someone, you can get excited about the tangibility of the medium *just like LPs*.

This is what I will do - make recordings at the opera, at the concert, in the jungle, at occasions like birthday parties and weddings, at SUPERB quality, take the disc out, put it in your deck at home, and listen to it as if you were back there. Fantastic!

What does MD mean to you?

Edited February 20, 2007 by GregorMD

[mdmania]

I'm old school. I like to be able to touch, feel and see things. And this is what Minidisc is about for me. Don't get me wrong I also have iPod but I still love Minidisc.

[ratbagradio]

Yeah, what you say is true and I cannot understand why people allow the mp3 format to determine the fidelity they listen to. On top of that is the fragility of CDs. I spend the money for music and one mishandling , and the disc is scratched or dirty or lost ...or is separated from its case never to meet again.

And just how long does a mini disc supposed to last?

I cam to the MD as a recording medium for voice, interviews and such and while there is a layer out there in broad - and pod - casting who want to embrace the new range of flash recorders like Edirol, it seem to me that the HiMD has so many bells and whistles that you have to be tech arrogant not to appreciate them.

Automatic gain, for instance, is an amazing attribute when you are recording live out and about.

After recording and listening on Mp3 format for some time I only bought my first HMD late last year and the sound blew me over. Compared to my other recordings I was now being offered such a quality sound threshold that I had more editing options to play with and could interact with recording situations-- such as within the body of large marches and rallies -- that would clip the sound grabbed by the Mp3 devices I had been using .

I've not as yet got into moving my music collection to MD but I can see the advantages. The only price I pay is in the time it takes to download audio onto the disc. Thats' where a comparative inconvenience kicks in. -- but then I can fill any number of discs that way and be off on a holiday or journey away from a computer, whereas with mp3 I was limited to the single capacity of one device filled to 512mb or 1 gb.

So you have to come back to what I think is the obvious: there is so much crap written and said about MDs and that is indicative of some inbuilt rationales that people have been prone to: Bad experiences with SonicStage. Well, not anymore. Rationalising multimedia users of the Mac who haven't been always able to access MD technology . People who think that the only recording experience worth considering is sitting down at your computer....

Unfortunately, as has been noted here so many times, Mp3 format will kill quality and rich sound. Our ears are being dumbed down and even though I listen primarily to voice you can get a feel for what the mp3 pathology is doing to peoples ears. It's insidious, really when you think about it. No wonder LPs are coming back.

But part of the tragedy, in what the original post referred to, is that the tech culture is digital in a way that cannot now relate to the MD. A MD is a sandwich of layered attributes that need mechanical 'space'. Whereas the core digital culture presumes that you can write all your data you want to write on the head of a pin. --so small is supposed to be vogue-ish or beautiful.

I guess it's like art painting in oils versus digitalised visuals; puppetry and amniotronics on film vs digital enhancement -- you pay a price in the shift because the new digital media are so sterile and lose so much nuance. But then, you see, it can be mass produced such that you bow can have iTunes instead of double album covers.

And, in the case of music, the major labels are laughing, even if they have to put up with the massive capacity of digital media to be shared and copied and mashed up. (And SONY decides to protect us from the potential of the MD to do this! A relaunch of the MD as an optional format in the record store could change the way music is listened to overnight. But why would they? They are doing very nicely with CDs).

[raintheory]

I'm a musician myself, so I love them for that reason, and have used them since the beginning.

I also have always been a fan of trading mix-tapes with friends. You can do this with MiniDisc.. With an iPod what are you going to do, trade iPods?

[an0nym0usmuse]

This is why I chose MD ten years ago and still use it... I record my vinyl LPs to Minidisc. And I have all of my recordings stored and alphabetized. It gives me a sense of ownership of the music and a way of preserving something of value. I'm grabbing all of the vinyl that I can, while it's still in circulation. I search for LPs in old record stores and thrift stores. Much of what's out there will never make it to CD. And many of the digital transfers that were made in the early years of CD are inferior to the sound from a good LP.

It's what a lot of us did in the '70s... take vinyl records and convert to cassette or reel-to-reel, for convenience and archiving purposes.

Yes, I know it's possible to route the analog signal from a turntable directly to a PC, either through a card or USB port, and then burn directly to CD. But a good Minidisc deck is a lot easier to use, and as you mention, you have a tangible product--a small Minidisc--that's more durable and serves as a miniature LP.

I'm happy to see that LPs are making a comeback; they began outselling cassettes a while back and are very much in demand among collectors. Hopefully Minidisc will continue to thrive, at least as a niche product, for consumers who value audio quality and have an appreciation for the music.

Edited February 21, 2007 by an0nym0usmuse

[cochra1]

As much as I love Hi-MD, I would never ever listen to recordings of my beloved vinyl on a minidisc (or any other digital medium).

Vinyl has a wonderfuly warm and smooth sound of its own, and to drop it to a compressed digital medium (even at the best ATRAC rates) seems pointless - unless the vinyl is your only source and you want copies for listening on the move. Even recording this analogue source to uncompressed WAV/PCM would result in loss. Using a decent bit depth (e.g. a 32bit soundcard) on a PC would help.

But since minidisc only has a depth of 8bit (half that of even CD - and that's poor enough) it really is not recommended to back up your vinyl, which has the equivilent of infinite bit depth - after all, it's analogue!

Enjoy your vinyl mate.

Edited February 21, 2007 by KanakoAndTheNumbSkulls

[raintheory]

...But since minidisc only has a depth of 8bit...

[tekdroid]

What does MD mean to you?

The ability to capture sound and light always fascinates me. In my opinion, one of man's greatest achievements.

Before it we were painting and re-enacting events and passing on tales verbally from one generation to the next to tell stories (we still do). Now we can tell them easily and with great accuracy. So I will always be interested in any devices that let the common man tell stories with light and/or sound. Still cameras, video cameras, audio recorders...

Hi-MD is one of those. I like the fact that it has the basics covered:

*extra power wherever you are travelling and however long you stay makes sense: it's a small extra battery away (not dumbified bring-it-to-pc to-recharge).

*audio inputs: MIC, LINE IN and OPTICAL for recording flexibility

*units are small enough not to get in the way too much

*Hi-MD is really a self-contained CE device rather than a computer device first. This means a lot, especially in the removable storage department. There is no requirement for a PC as you would if your storage became full or you wanted to change what you were listening to or recording on. Of course it would be nice to have more storage, but it's great that it's removable and not embedded. Major point to me.

*editing flexibility on the disc

*good reliability in my experience (as long as the buttons don't crap out first )

So IMO there really isn't an all-round good recording (and playback) format out there like it. It let's Joe tell stories rather than have to listen to listen to the crap out there. It's a tool of creative expression, just like a camera. It's nice.

[cochra1]

Minidisc uses a bit depth of 8 bit. CD audio is recorded at a depth of 16 bit, and SACD/DVDA uses 24bit. Although I believe that when recording in uncompressed PCM on minidisc this uses 16-bit just as CD does.

I assume that was the question behind the 'huh' emoticon!

Edited February 22, 2007 by KanakoAndTheNumbSkulls

[raintheory]

Where are you getting the 8 bit info? Can you provide a link/references/etc? I always thought MD was 16 bit...

EDIT: LinearPCM via Hi-MD is 16bit 44.1kHz

Edited February 22, 2007 by raintheory

[poe]

Even old MD records 16bit, 44.1. Some decks record in 20bit, 44.1(I think even a few record in 24 bit, 44.1). I think that Sharps Auvis are 24bit, 44.1. So where does this 8 bit depth come from? POE.

Edited February 23, 2007 by poe

[GQ Smooth]

The ability to capture sound and light always fascinates me. In my opinion, one of man's greatest achievements.

Before it we were painting and re-enacting events and passing on tales verbally from one generation to the next to tell stories (we still do). Now we can tell them easily and with great accuracy. So I will always be interested in any devices that let the common man tell stories with light and/or sound. Still cameras, video cameras, audio recorders...

Hi-MD is one of those. I like the fact that it has the basics covered:

*extra power wherever you are travelling and however long you stay makes sense: it's a small extra battery away (not dumbified bring-it-to-pc to-recharge).

*audio inputs: MIC, LINE IN and OPTICAL for recording flexibility

*units are small enough not to get in the way too much

*Hi-MD is really a self-contained CE device rather than a computer device first. This means a lot, especially in the removable storage department. There is no requirement for a PC as you would if your storage became full or you wanted to change what you were listening to or recording on. Of course it would be nice to have more storage, but it's great that it's removable and not embedded. Major point to me.

*editing flexibility on the disc

*good reliability in my experience (as long as the buttons don't crap out first )

So IMO there really isn't an all-round good recording (and playback) format out there like it. It let's Joe tell stories rather than have to listen to listen to the crap out there. It's a tool of creative expression, just like a camera. It's nice.

Great Post, Elegantly made

[raintheory]

I had thought that type R/S only dealt with legacy/MDLP //

I'm not sure though, but for some reason I remember reading that.

[Sparky191]

The Onkyo Hi-MD decks are 24bit depth resolution, according to the specifications.

If I've understood corretly the RH1 records 16bit but can playback recordings done on decks with 24bit.

Hence Sony stressing full High-Speed ATRAC type-R/S compatibility. I didn't quite grasp if it was actually able to record itself in that mode.

And maybe I'm missing the point completely, do feel free to correct, amend & enlighten the Type S/R issue & bit depth.

Not aware of that myself. Would love to hear more about it.

MD initially replaced my cassettes for recording. I love them for recording. I love the gadgetness of MD's and the MD hardware. But in terms of usuability HiMD is so much better I couldn't go back to MD. I don't use HiMD for playback. I prefer other formats/hardware usuability for playback.

[poe]

I can't remember off hand if the RH1 can record in Net MD mode, if it does it more than likely does in Type R. Type S is a playback only for LP2/LP4, again if it has a Type R chip it more than likely has Type S.

Any device that records digitally has to have a bit word length(bit depth) and sampling rate(the 44.1) and both numbers matter.

SACD does not use 24bit word length(bit depth) as far as I know. The way I have always understood SACD is a 1bit system with a insane sampling rate (can't remember the off hand, but I think it's a very large number). DVDA supports multiple word bit lengths and sampling rates.

This is conjecture on my part about the Rh1s ability to playback 20 and 24 bit recordings. I think as long as there isn't to dramatic of a difference in word bit length and sampling rate, any 16 bit system can playback it. I believe it will be down res. I based this on the fact that CD players I believe can playback 20bit CDs (quasi 20bit playback) but its down resed. Later, POE.

[poe]

GregorMD I'm sorry about derailing your thread but the comment about 8bit was just plain wrong.

Now back to your post. I got some bad news you'll only be buying a Onyko HIMD deck, because they're the only one who makes a HIMD deck not even Sony makes one!

I've personally have never made a live recording with my MDs(HIMD, Net or legacy I've owned something from every generation), although I'm still toying with the idea of doing a podcast with my RH910.

I still like the idea of removable media over being tied to a computer. I think even if solid state mp3 recorders start getting external mikes and larger wordbit/sampling rates, I'll still stick with MDs I just like the removable media. POE

[Gregor]

GregorMD I'm sorry about derailing your thread but the comment about 8bit was just plain wrong.

Now back to your post. I got some bad news you'll only be buying a Onyko HIMD deck, because they're the only one who makes a HIMD deck not even Sony makes one!

I've personally have never made a live recording with my MDs(HIMD, Net or legacy I've owned something from every generation), although I'm still toying with the idea of doing a podcast with my RH910.

I still like the idea of removable media over being tied to a computer. I think even if solid state mp3 recorders start getting external mikes and larger wordbit/sampling rates, I'll still stick with MDs I just like the removable media. POE

No problem, it's all interesting. I have a lot to learn about this format.

You know, I really like this format. I hope that it is kept alive. I know that it is used in many professional industries such as film making (as back up sound recording or main recording unit for guerilla film makers) and has other uses. The fact that you get a player and a Linear PCM recorder that can produce digitally times CD quality sound it absolutely amazing. I am a fan of analogue technology (analogue synthesizers, film cameras, LPs etc) but having an MD player is almost like having a top brand LP player in your pocket which can also record!

They are lighter than the Ipods, and sturdier. I really think that the disc artwork is very cool. I have just bought some TDK coloured artwork 80min discs - very cool. The artwork should be some of their biggest selling points, not just the units themselves (which are also very well designed). I wish the discs were more readily available.

I like the system because it is infinitely expandable. I shall buy the Onkyo deck for really one reason - the ability to record and then come home and put that recorded music on (and also to play discs that I have already put material onto via computer, LP or otherwise). The discs are tangible like LPs - they force you to think about the music you are listening to.

Really, I hope that this format never dies. Given that it is still popular in Asia, and seems to have a lot of use elsewhere with discerning listeners, I wonder when the next model minidisc recorder or player will be released.

[Sparky191]

I don't understand how you can equate LP's and MD's. MD's and ATRAC has much in common with CD's and MP3's than they do LP's. Analog vs digital.

[poe]

I meant to add this in my last post, you mentioned about swaping music, you may want to go over to the Audio T Board they have really nice MD trade scene going on over there. It's working pretty well over there I've particapate quite a few times in the last 8 months or so.

If you go over there also check out the thread about Iggy Pop using minidisc to record the rough tracks to his newest album. Gives hope that Sony may still keep producing some units for a little while even if only for pro side of the market.

My opinion, about comparison of MD to LPs, is that Sony when they introduced Minidisc is that it was a digital replacement to the cassette which is absolutely true. You get all the portable benefits of cassette but even smaller. You don't get any of cassettes caveats though, degragation, no random access, no reording of the playlist and no limited dynamic range(and anyother sound limitations of cassette). I will say for the record that Sony even improved cassette tech with its Dolby S, its dynamic range and other sound attributes where improved to point that it surpassed minidisc in this one area(that is until HIMD that is). Who really ownes one of these decks though, I do but I've never meant anybody else who does.

[Sparky191]

I've a Sony deck with Dolby S but don't use that feature. I would think a lot of pro's use MD because its a great convenient format for recording. Not because it has better dynamic range and other sound attributes to other formats. At the end of the day ATRAC is primarily a digital, lossy compressed format. It can't escape that limitation.

[Gregor]

I don't understand how you can equate LP's and MD's. MD's and ATRAC has much in common with CD's and MP3's than they do LP's. Analog vs digital.

Yes I know. But its a disc, tangible and has great quality (although digital not analogue like an LP).

Otherwise, its a Mini LP as far as Im concerned - its TANGIBLE. You think about the music you are playing every time you insert the disc and you can swap the discs like LPs.

Still no LP and player unit the size of an MD out yet. If there were - I'd buy one. I wonder if they could ever do that?

[Sparky191]

My mistake, I thought you were equating the sound of LP and MD. You now seem to equating the physicality (if that makes sense) of disk swapping. I can understand why you like that but thats one thing I really dislike. Each to their own. I can agree with the size though. One of the reasons I never really liked portable CD players was because I found them too big to carry around. MD are the perfect size. I wish they had a better screen and GUI on the units though.

I've seen '80s portable LP getto blasters. But you can't escape the size of a LP.

[Gregor]

My mistake, I thought you were equating the sound of LP and MD. You now seem to equating the physicality (if that makes sense) of disk swapping. I can understand why you like that but thats one thing I really dislike. Each to their own. I can agree with the size though. One of the reasons I never really liked portable CD players was because I found them too big to carry around. MD are the perfect size. I wish they had a better screen and GUI on the units though.

I've seen '80s portable LP getto blasters. But you can't escape the size of a LP

Sure, but I was also referring to the fact that there are other similarities between the 2 formats

Both are round discs

Both are played with a kind of stylus, laser/magnet for the MDs or just plain old stylus in the case of an LP

Both are super cool

The MD format, while not analogue like a LP, presents the most portable high quality option out there for playing your LPs and can have CD/Mastered LP quality in the palm of your hand - Its certainly much more portable than those 80's Sharp LP ghetto blasters (although they are cool too).

In short, if you want quality sound, and you can put an LP in your pocket, you can still have the Minidisc with great digital reproduction.

I really marvel at the technology. Actually to think that there is a PCM recorder that weights 80 grams is amazing. And the discs are super light - I easily put 3 or 4 in my coat pocket and they are light and not too bulky.

I read about the flash players having 2, 4 GB etc - that is NOTHING. In a sleeve that takes MD you can fit about 8 GB to an A4 sized sleeve thats only a few mm thick. Its expandable, and its tangible.

Ive dropped the NH1 countless times and it runs. No Ipod with a heavy Hard drive will do that for you. People are complaining about moving parts. Yes, the MD does have a complicated set of machines in its tiny body - but it will run and run and run.

Its an incredible format and wont die. Its going to make a comeback with the discerning listener (not just the musician) who wants a tangible recording of their favourite LPs, CDs, live recordings etc.

The difference between MD and MP3 players is this: listening to MD is like seeing movies projected on the big screen, listening to the standard MP3 file is like watching a move on a 19 inch monitor on Youtube.

Big difference if you ask me. Life is too short for compromise.

[Sparky191]

You can get Mp3 players than can play lossless files or WAVs? (same as CD), and are approx same size as a HiMD. There are some which sound as good if not better than HiMD. Which is why a lot of Audiophiles have moved away from MD/HiMD.

Also inside a Hard Disk is spinning round disc just like a LP with a moving arm and everything. Thats another incredible similarity right there!

[Sparky191]

Sparky can you point out some devices that can playback and record PCM, with line in, mic in, optical in? With similar or better SQ as you suggest, on-board editing, custom EQ, A-B repeat & other options as speed control & durable construction?

The thing with media with more memory is that is something goes wrong with it, you loose all it's content. With removable 1Go or 300Mo discs you'd loose just that.

Only if you can tell me a LP player that does all that. or a HiMD that has a optical out, or a 2yr warranty or FM tuner. Most people don't move all their music to their portable they copy it so the original is always somewhere. Do you delete your ATRAC files from SS when you put them on HiMD? Do you throw away the CD's? You can get most other devices fixed. When a HiMD/MD breaks, or laser fails, how do you get it fixed like you could with a CD player? Theres pros and cons to every device.