Is this the minidisc killer?

[A440]

Boy, does this look tempting: records on SD in .wav and .mp3, runs on two AAs, smaller than MD, $200. Plug in power for a 1/8 stereo mic, but also turns into a multitrack studio.

I'd be a little worried about triggering some of those studio effects when I just wanted a straightforward recording, but for a working musician this could be quite the toy, assuming all works well.

http://www.minidisco.com/Boss-MICRO-BR

Although Minidisco wants to sell a 2GB SD card with it, the specs only go up to 1 GB

http://www.roland.com/products/en/MICRO_BR/specs.html . So there's the same time limit as Hi-MD for .wav recording.

Edited March 20, 2007 by A440

[Strungup]

Boy, does this look tempting: records on SD in .wav and .mp3, runs on two AAs, smaller than MD, $200. Plug in power for a 1/8 stereo mic, but also turns into a multitrack studio.

I'd be a little worried about triggering some of those studio effects when I just wanted a straightforward recording, but for a working musician this could be quite the toy, assuming all works well.

http://www.minidisco.com/Boss-MICRO-BR

Although Minidisco wants to sell a 2GB SD card with it, the specs only go up to 1 GB

http://www.roland.com/products/en/MICRO_BR/specs.html . So there's the same time limit as Hi-MD for .wav recording.

I have played with it , and it is quite cool , The guitar processor in it is hot very hot. The display is cool to . Tough to turn down isnt it?

I wouldnt say MD killer , but it definately adds to the Competition

[A440]

I Googled about it, and it does have a few drawbacks. It records to a proprietary format--something that may set off alarms for longtime minidisc users--although Roland has provided a .wav converter and, nearly as important, the original (proprietary) files can just be drag-and-dropped from a SD card reader. No SonicStage-style hurdles.

The people bloggng about it are using it mostly as a portable studio and training device, not as a field recorder. One crucial question is whether the mic preamp is noisy or not. Since mic-in and Line-in are the same jack, I'm guessing that you have to tell it what it's getting through that jack via menus.

[boojum]

Did you notice the difference in price between the memory cards and Hi-MD discs??

[bland10000]

Did you notice the difference in price between the memory cards and Hi-MD discs??

Once a formidable argument that is petering out to a cliche.

1gb SD card prices have dropped to 10.00 usd and less for the slowest writing cards which are faster than hi-md.

[boojum]

SDSDB-2048_sm.jpg

SanDisk SDSDB-2048-A10

2GB SD card...read more

Availability: 7 In Stock In Stock

Price: $69.95 Check To Add

2 gb is a little more than $20. I am staying with the MD as it does all I need it to do: record music.

[bland10000]

SDSDB-2048_sm.jpg

SanDisk SDSDB-2048-A10

2GB SD card...read more

Availability: 7 In Stock In Stock

Price: $69.95 Check To Add

2 gb is a little more than $20. I am staying with the MD as it does all I need it to do: record music.

No need to spend 14.95 on the 2GB card as the Micro-br works only with cards up to 1GB which can be had for 7.95.

No one is doubting your loyalty to the MD format for quality recording but your sharp argument of price for recording medium, while valid in in 2005 and 2006, has been blunted in 2007.

[boojum]

No need to spend 14.95 on the 2GB card as the Micro-br works only with cards up to 1GB which can be had for 7.95.

No one is doubting your loyalty to the MD format for quality recording but your sharp argument of price for recording medium, while valid in in 2005 and 2006, has been blunted in 2007.

Perhaps. But this arguement stays the same: my MD does all I need it to do. Why would I run out and replace it when it works so well? I have other things I can spend money on than redundancy.

[King Ghidora]

I won't be running out and upgrading while I have a perfectly fine HIMD recorder. But I don't expect it to last forever and I do need multiple recorders for my business (video production).

Plus this new device has some definite advantages. The ability to swap out memory cards is a big step up over many flash based recorders. The ability to do multiple tracks can be a big advantage for anyone recording their own music. And of course there are no moving parts so it should be durable.

I love my HIMD and I expect to be using this technology for quite a while. But the state of portable recorders has changed. I expect a flood of cheap and capable recorders in the near future. I've already bought very decent recorders for under $20 each. They aren't HIMD quality but they aren't bad either. I can't see HIMD being able to compete eventually. It's just going to be much cheaper designing equipment that doesn't require moving parts and memory card prices continue to fall. I think we can expect to see 4 gig cards selling for under $20 within a year or two. It's true that SD cards are too small to keep up with but when we're all using 20 gig cards there won't be much reason for swapping them out.

[reefbeef]

Is it possible to play one track while simultaneously recording a second track?

[A440]

Is it possible to play one track while simultaneously recording a second track?

Yes, that's what it's for. Field recording is not among its priorities, which is why I am curious about the mic preamp.

http://www.rolandus.com/uploads/CMS/Downlo...mag_2006_11.pdf

-----------------------------------------------------------

Boojum et al., I'm pretty fond of minidisc myself. By the time my NH700 and RH1 wear out, the whole landscape will be different.

Minidisco's price for SD cards is way out of line, though--as is their trying to sell a 2GB card for a machine that can only handle 1GB. You don't use the SD card for permanent storage, anyway, just to collect the data to be uploaded.

When someone comes up with an affordable flash recorder with minidisc's editing capabilities--I want my track marks--and with non-proprietary formats, I'll want to get one. In the meantime, if I didn't have stack upon stack of minidiscs and wasn't already familiar with how to use it, I would have less reason to buy into it now. But the proprietary format on this puppy, and the 1GB limit, keep me from being tempted by the Micro BR.

[rayzray]

Boy, does this look tempting: records on SD in .wav and .mp3, runs on two AAs, smaller than MD, $200. Plug in power for a 1/8 stereo mic, but also turns into a multitrack studio.

I'd be a little worried about triggering some of those studio effects when I just wanted a straightforward recording, but for a working musician this could be quite the toy, assuming all works well.

http://www.minidisco.com/Boss-MICRO-BR

Although Minidisco wants to sell a 2GB SD card with it, the specs only go up to 1 GB

http://www.roland.com/products/en/MICRO_BR/specs.html . So there's the same time limit as Hi-MD for .wav recording.

donno;; like i check every thing out at the Music stores (Guitar Center etc) and all this stuff just doesn't tickle my bubble as much as the MD/Hi-MD phenominon ??(SP) did..

i just impress too many ppl here to wanna change to a (satellite) PC/USB "common" type thing..

these 4 channel portable things just FEEL like they are gonna fall apart in your hands;; and like a "Bull" that i am in a China shoppe;; i just don't wanna handle them..

late edit]] all this crap of these units with the USB cable just reminds me of a delicate new-born baby hanging from it's embiblical (sp) chord..!!

Edited March 20, 2007 by rayzray

[Strungup]

Yes, that's what it's for. Field recording is not among its priorities, which is why I am curious about the mic preamp.

http://www.rolandus.com/uploads/CMS/Downlo...mag_2006_11.pdf

-----------------------------------------------------------

Boojum et al., I'm pretty fond of minidisc myself. By the time my NH700 and RH1 wear out, the whole landscape will be different.

Minidisco's price for SD cards is way out of line, though--as is their trying to sell a 2GB card for a machine that can only handle 1GB. You don't use the SD card for permanent storage, anyway, just to collect the data to be uploaded.

When someone comes up with an affordable flash recorder with minidisc's editing capabilities--I want my track marks--and with non-proprietary formats, I'll want to get one. In the meantime, if I didn't have stack upon stack of minidiscs and wasn't already familiar with how to use it, I would have less reason to buy into it now. But the proprietary format on this puppy, and the 1GB limit, keep me from being tempted by the Micro BR.

You want your flash recorder , here it is

http://www.fostexinternational.com/cgi-bin...ewnews_pro_head ( I want this one, it looks like the MZ1 the first MD , only with XLR inputs)

Also look at the Korg MR1, 20 gb HDD

http://www.korg.com/gear/info.asp?a_prod_n...p;category_id=3

Microtrack 24/96 from M-Audio ( I have one )

CF and Flash Recorders are commonplace now , and basically for liveAudio are the new standard.

Marantz PMD660 very nice and price well,

http://www.proaudio.com/product_info.php?products_id=1983

not bashing MD, Love MD

But for live recording it is being quietly relegated to the back seat , these Pro quality Field recorders are coming down in price so fast it isnt funny,and their capabilty is increasing at an exponential rate. You have full track marking , file conversion , Scrubbing , Waveform analysis, etc The R-09 has a Wave form view in it , Edirol's 4 track field recorder( still at 1100 bucks) has all kinds of editing features.

Edited March 20, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[rayzray]

....But for live recording it is being quietly relegated to the back seat , these Pro quality Field recorders are coming down in price so fast it isnt funny,and their capabilty is increasing at an exponential rate. You have full track marking , file conversion , Scrubbing , Waveform analysis, etc The R-09 has a Wave form view in it , Edirol's 4 track field recorder( still at 1100 bucks) has all kinds of editing features.

BUT,, are these "User Friendly"!!??!!;; have you every tried to use one of these "Puppies" and a "friendly" way;; it may be impossible;;

THese companies;; Korg,, Boss etc SUCK at user friendly units;; at least IMO..

i am freakin fed up with un-user-friendly units;; like when i go to the Guitar Certer;; they can't even demonstrate there fweakin units..

i "Bash" them..!!

[Strungup]

BUT,, are these "User Friendly"!!??!!;; have you every tried to use one of these "Puppies" and a "friendly" way;; it may be impossible;;

THese companies;; Korg,, Boss etc SUCK at user friendly units;; at least IMO..

i am freakin fed up with un-user-friendly units;; like when i go to the Guitar Certer;; they can't even demonstrate there fweakin units..

i "Bash" them..!!

The Fostex will be , The MicroTrack isnt hard to figure out , I bought it becuase it has Balanced ins (TRS) , w/Phantom Power and it will use CF cards of any size , Microdrives of any size , Battery life could be improved tho I use a USB batt pack that I built , 8 AA and a 5 volt regulator ( 7805 chip, a few Capacitors, and use a 3amp diode on the out so there isnt any back voltage to to 7805) it will work for HI MD as well

[rayzray]

^^ u make it sound a little more "yummier",, but ,, no,, i am sure it's not my "bag"..

i want "re-Mixing" capabilities;; not 4 track;; but next time i go to Guitar Center;; i will waste the salesman's time once again and ask him questions..

never know;; i may "buy it";; the money is burning a hole in my pocket;; i haven't bought a decent bling in zing-time..

Edited March 20, 2007 by rayzray

[raintheory]

Well, as I have stated before...

I have been using MiniDisc for over 10 years. Flash-based recorders are relatively new, so I wouldn't trust them as much as I trust a tried and true technology.

Just my opinion though.

[Strungup]

Well, as I have stated before...

I have been using MiniDisc for over 10 years. Flash-based recorders are relatively new, so I wouldn't trust them as much as I trust a tried and true technology.

Just my opinion though.

Klik and read this ,

http://www.harp28.com/

recording Engineers have been "depending" on Flash based Recorders for a few years now

A lot of your location Film recording and sound samples ( Most in fact ) are done with CF and Flash based nachines , Industrial light and Magic uses a lot of suond effects most of which are captured by these portables, as well as MGM , Warner, etc , I know a LOT of location engineers who wont leave the house without the rig.

Again not bashing MD , I have 300+ discs, just perspective

Is it the tangible fact of handling the disc , the unit , the familiarity with its feel , or is it truly the SOUND that you are after , either is fine , I have a great fondness for MD , but my work revolves around Sound , so the issue is , Not what works with my MD or what will my MD work with , the issue is What will capture the Sound in exactly the way I want to ( Price then becomes a non issue)

This is the reason for the competition of the MD , is the fact that The idea of MOST recording engineers is exactly that " What will get that sound for me" . That is the impetus the pushes the Companies like Fostex, Tascam , Nagra, Opcode, Mackie(Tapco for those who dont know) etc.

What is happening is the competition among the Pro Audio companies has produced a drive to get cleaner smaller faster , cheaper , in order to keep ahead of each other , the result is , now, Pro Gear is beginning to decend into the Amatuer Pocketbook range and is going to seriously complicate things for companies like Sony, Denon, etc.

Is all of this the "Death of MD" ...probably not , but it WILL be put in the back seat , and it Will be and already is a Niche market .

MD Players and Home Systems are popular , but that is where they are popular now , the consumer market , not the Audio field.

Which suks , because MD IS cool and Is really good Audio .

PS ....My Typing sucks

Edited March 21, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[reefbeef]

The idea of MOST recording engineers is exactly that " What will get that sound for me" .

Do you think the flash based recorders you've mentioned capture sound better or more accurately than Hi-MD PCM?

Is it even a fair comparison if the flash recorder has phantom power and we compare it to MD's 1.5 V or 9V?

The subject recorder that started this thread sounds like it has the same input options as MD (1.5V mic in or 9V battery module to line in). Hopefully someone with an RH1 will get the Roland soon and A/B them.

[King Ghidora]

You talk about getting the sound you want Guitarfxr. How do you think HIMD holds up against these pro level units you're describing as far as "getting the sound you want" goes? I see posts where people say they record in 24 bit and higher khz settings then convert down to CD quality levels (44.1khz - 16 bit)or video camera levels (48khz - 16 bit). People say they get better results that way. And what about the pre-amps in HIMD? People often upgrade to stand alone pre-amps. Do you think that's a worthwhile investment? Are we talking a lot of money for a little bit of improvement?

Another question. I suppose I should ask my son about this. He's an electrical engineer and I wonder how hard it would be for him to build a better pre-amp.

Edited March 21, 2007 by King Ghidora

[Strungup]

You talk about getting the sound you want Guitarfxr. How do you think HIMD holds up against these pro level units you're describing as far as "getting the sound you want" goes? I see posts where people say they record in 24 bit and higher khz settings then convert down to CD quality levels (44.1khz - 16 bit)or video camera levels (48khz - 16 bit). People say they get better results that way. And what about the pre-amps in HIMD? People often upgrade to stand alone pre-amps. Do you think that's a worthwhile investment? Are we talking a lot of money for a little bit of improvement?

Another question. I suppose I should ask my son about this. He's an electrical engineer and I wonder how hard it would be for him to build a better pre-amp.

Well I did a test today , Just to satisfy my own curiosity and my ears. I built two XLR -TRS 1 meter balanced cables , for the MicroTrack 24/96

I used a ECM-23F3 Mic on left and a ECM-360 on the right , And at a distance from my guitar of 60 cm , I had a very clean punchy string definition , and not very much noise, the settings on the microtrack were

#1 : Rec mode : MP3 128kbs 44.1khz

#2 : TRS input : Stereo 27db gain on ( mic gain high)

#3 : Switch on the side set at M (L,M,H) Line , Mic , High Gain respectively.

I was very pleasantly suprised with what I heard , I had been using the mics Unbalanced and the difference was dramatic.

The next test was disappointing to me which was , I took an older ECM-909a Mid /Side stereo mic ( small desktop style )

I first rant the mic to the Kenwood DCM-F5R MD recorder , 30cm from the guitar, rec level all the way up (no mic sens on this model)

A fair amount of hiss ( enough that it would be unusable as a product) but good wide freq and kind of punchy on the guitar.

Next up was the MZ-B10 (Sony business model) Hiss level dropped considerably as did the signal , freq was narrowed a bit .

Next up was te RH1 ,..here is where I was disappointed , There was more hiss than the BZ-10 (Disc Mode Standard MD, set to SP) so that the comparison would be somewhat equal and fair , I pulled out my old MZ-R50 , same disc in all situation, same mic , same settings , .............The MZ-R50 ( which I always thought was the best built of the MD's Sounded Almost as good as the Microtrack, and way better than the RH1 . I mean the difference was night and day .

Pro gear , is designed for Critical Noise level situations where even a trace of Noise can mean the difference , MD is designed for the Upper Amatuer , Audiofile or semi pro ,

The Micro track at mp3 mode Blew all of my MD's away , and I wasnt using studio mics above average for the ECM 23F3 yes but the 360 is an off the shelf at Best buy kinda mic. If I would have set the Microtrack at its Highest settings and used studio Mics there would be no comparison , none the MD wouldnt even get in the ring.

I know that sounds cruel but , Pro gear is Pro gear , and it cost 's money to get that sound.

In answering your question I did tests , and Got hurt in the process , I did not expect to hear what the Microtrack was going to do in a full Balanced situation , I will post some sample files , but not right now , it will be a few weeks , I have a lot of repair work to do so I wont be on the comp for a while.

I can only add to what I have said before , an external preamp of GOOD quality , will make the diffence on the MD , Be it a Mixing Board or dedicated Mic pre , Good mics and good pre , And then the MD is in the balllpark

The MIcroTrack is Capable of full 24/96 Wav/PCM recording I had it at its lowest usable settings MP 128 ( there are two lower settings 64/32 but they arent worth mentioning )

Edited March 21, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[A440]

When you get a chance, can you post some samples?

And unless I misunderstand what you wrote, you were using different mics into the MicroTrack and the MD recorders. So are you comparing the mics, the mic preamps or the recorders?

[Strungup]

When you get a chance, can you post some samples?

And unless I misunderstand what you wrote, you were using different mics into the MicroTrack and the MD recorders. So are you comparing the mics, the mic preamps or the recorders?

Alll of the above, Yes I will post some samples , but not this week , I got a butload of house repair , and instrument repair, So I break every hour or so , and sit down on the forums to just read , This is one of the best forums I have seen , and some actual intelligent conversation going.

The Micro Track was set at a LOW rec setting, Levels and mic pre High , but quality LOW,

The MD were set at HIGH quality (for the early models) and average quality for the RH1

The Mics that were selected were of aproximate equality with the exeption of the ECM -23F3, it is a nice mic

Good Mic preamps will make the difference in ANY machine, A mic preamp has the dubious job of bringing a very small signal up to a much larger signal, so #1 if there is any noise in the preamp it WILL also be amplified, If there is noise in the MIC ,It will be amplified.

So you have TWO noise sources combined, .......that makes the job difficult , and is the reason that GOOD mic pre's cost Good money .

To get All Discrete A/D conversion adds another conundrum.

Here is were Sony made a HUGE mistake ( and I will post a disertation on just this subject) They made a 4Track recorder a few years back , the timing of it was quite good and they could have completely with that one machine , made MD the most popular format on the planet. But......( i hate that word) They made it to use an unpopular format , MD DATA , dumb move. Reallly Stupid , on a scale of 1-10 that was an 11.

The recorder itself was very nice , Had they made it to use regular MD , or even prepared it for the HIMD ( that would be soooooo cool) it would have , and Almost every working musician I know say the same thing, It would have wiped out the Tape Deck 4track machines , and had a HUGE running start on the Harddrive based Machines that are out now,

As you mentioned the BR Micro 4Track , is out now and uses SD cards (Flash memory)

The Sony 4track would STILL be more pupoluar , because of having a Widely Available media MD.

But they missed the target , absolutely did not pay attention to the NEED , instead the just put something there to take part in what was going on. . Which is where the crux of this debate goes , What exactly is ( In the eyes of the WORKING media field) What is the NEED . Then Does MD actually fill that NEED .

Amatuer Musicians are more populace now than at any point in the history of the world, If you have a computer , you can make your own CD . That makes it difficult for the recording industry , And the Majority of Musicians do NOT feel like paying Industry Money or Industry having control over their stuff. So the Manufacturers see,....a NEED , now the race to fill it begins, Every Imaginable gadjet with the ability to capture sound (both good and bad quality ) jumps in the ring. That is a LOT of money . Where is Sony in that ring ? MD For that matter ? The HHB was mentioned , Not Sony , HHB which is an awesome recorder by the way , way better than the Microtrack. And way more money .

Again Had Sony at that time, Made a Decent , not even PRO , just Decent quality 4Track that used Standard MD , they would have saved their buts. Put GOOD mic Preamps , simple 3 band EQ , 1 effect loop( send and stereo return).The would have established themselves with the musician market , and solidly at that.

That is what they NEED to do right now, and quickly , Release a REALLY good 4track , Nice mic preamps , simple easy to operate, using HIMD and Standard MD format , with a USB connect , and record in a MP3 format instead of ATRAC , and they could plant a good foot in the door. That is what TAscam has ALREADY done . 8 Tracks , Very simple menu , HDD based (40GB) under 300 dollars.

http://www.tascam.com/Products/dp01.html

1996 this is what Tascam did

http://www.minidisc.org/mix_tascam.html

This is what Sony should have done , 4 /5 years ago , when the HIMD format became available

Edited March 22, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[A440]

I agree with you that Sony missed the chance to make Minidisc a format for musicians. Not Sony's first mistake, or its last.

But about these tests, you have introduced too many variables. You really need to compare the same microphone and the same quality across various recorders, since you can't tell if the noise is coming from the mics or the preamps.

Many early reviews of the Microtrack complained that the preamp was considerably noisier than a minidisc preamp. You got the opposite result. Maybe it has to do with balanced vs. unbalanced mics. But it's hard to tell unless you know what's being compared.

[King Ghidora]

Amatuer Musicians are more populace now than at any point in the history of the world, If you have a computer , you can make your own CD . That makes it difficult for the recording industry , And the Majority of Musicians do NOT feel like paying Industry Money or Industry having control over their stuff. So the Manufacturers see,....a NEED , now the race to fill it begins, Every Imaginable gadjet with the ability to capture sound (both good and bad quality ) jumps in the ring. That is a LOT of money . Where is Sony in that ring ? MD For that matter ?

I believe Sony suffers so much from their split personality that they don't know which foot to put forward first. On the one side they have the personal audio equipment that has made them a lot of money over the years. On the other hand is their interests in the music recording industry. One hand keeps trying to cut the other hand off.

I have a video production company. I spend a lot of time on boards that discuss video. I've seen Hollywood people say they think the ability to record quality video should be highly restricted to the point that ordinary people can't get their hands on the equipment to do it. And they were dead serious and according to them the idea had a lot of support in the Hollywood circles. These posts were around 2 years ago which is important.

At first I thought the guy was just some loon who didn't want to face the future. But now things have started to change big time. For the past 2 years camera companies have almost wiped out the ability of consumers to create quality video with the new equipment on the market. Features that were very common 2 years ago are impossible to find now. The companies (Sony included) are pushing such things as DVD cameras which are a total joke compared to minidv cameras. And unfortunately the iPod crowd is going for this marketing ploy big time.

So we all start to wonder if Hollywood has exerted too much influence on the camera industry. Then Vista comes out and we no longer have to wonder. We know the answer. Hollywood is trying to make it impossible for consumers to create quality video. The future of video is obvious HD of course. Well Vista deliberately cripples the ability of a computer to create HD video. They claim it's an anti-piracy move but we all know pirates will find a way no matter what. The truth is Hollywood is scared that they are losing their stranglehold on video production. And Sony is one of the companies leading the charge to force anyone who wants to do HD video to have to spend about $100k to do it. Hollywood knew that any joker with a few thousand dollars could buy enough equipment to make video that was competitive with the stuff they put out. I'm not saying it was the same quality but it was close enough and it was hard to tell the difference on a SD tv set. So Hollywood paniced and they went to Bill Gates and got him on board. Now the future for consumer produced HD is very bleak even if you just want to video your dog scratching fleas or grandma going to the grocery store.

Hollywood studios have a long history of making moves to corner the market on the distribution and production of movies. It seems they have done it again too. That guy I thought was just a wacko was a real representative of what the thinking is like in Hollywood and apparently they have bought their way again. They knew that people like me could produce good enough video to compete with their stuff and they didn't like it one bit. So they crippled the entire videocamera industry. I'm actually set as long as SD programs still get airplay but that's not going to be for long. I have some of the really good cameras that are no longer being produced.

So anyway the point of all this is I think Sony doesn't want people producing high quality audio with their equipment. They want to make some money from us but they don't want the quality to be too good. Other companies that don't have one foot in audio production don't care about this stuff yet so they will sell much better gear than Sony will. I figured when the ex-Beatles producer George Martin said that anyone could produce music while sitting in the bathtub that things would likely change for the worse for some companies (especially Sony). Martin didn't think it was a good thing that just anyone could get their hands on quality equipment and he said so. It was something about not havnig any way to produce stars or something like that.

Well I think Martin can make all the music he wants in his bathtub. I think the best thing that ever happened to music was to make it a truly democratic thing where everyone has the chance to make music. Now if we can just wrestly control of the public airwaves away from the payola crowd we might see some better quality music available because I'm one guy that really doesn't care all that much for Barbie doll bimbos struting through music videos and getting their machine produced "songs" played non-stop on the public airwaves.

My brother's brother in law has a 3 hour bluegrass show on the biggest local radio station. I think that sort of thing is the future of music in the USA. He can promote local talent to no end and that means a truly fair distribution of CD sales money. I'm just tired of big companies buying off DJ's with cocaine and party favors to get their songs played on the airwaves. In the past at least the stuff they produced was decent. It's all junk now. It's time to end the payola system for controlling what gets played on the publicly owned airwaves.

[ozpeter]

Some relevant sites if you want comparative tests under more controlled conditions:-

http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm

http://www.avisoft.com/test/noisefloors.pdf (does not include MD but still makes some interesting points)

http://beale.best.vwh.net/measure/audio/MZ...Mic_30_150Z.htm - loadsa RH1 measurements.

[spice-the-cat]

I'm just tired of big companies buying off DJ's with cocaine and party favors to get their songs played on the airwaves. In the past at least the stuff they produced was decent. It's all junk now. It's time to end the payola system for controlling what gets played on the publicly owned airwaves.

You're not alone in this sentiment, but don't hold your breath. The same people are are also trying to strangle the only broadcasting field where there is any originality and creativity, namely internet radio.

[Strungup]

I agree with you that Sony missed the chance to make Minidisc a format for musicians. Not Sony's first mistake, or its last.

But about these tests, you have introduced too many variables. You really need to compare the same microphone and the same quality across various recorders, since you can't tell if the noise is coming from the mics or the preamps.

Many early reviews of the Microtrack complained that the preamp was considerably noisier than a minidisc preamp. You got the opposite result. Maybe it has to do with balanced vs. unbalanced mics. But it's hard to tell unless you know what's being compared.

The Micro Track has two types of inputs , It has a 1/8 stereo input for Mics , but the problem (Where the complaints come from) is the 1/8 plug has a 5 volt output which is too much power for most small stereo mics . Because of that They dont sound good at all, it lowers their output drastically so you have to increase the gain to a ridiculus amount and therefore introduce noise.

The 1/4 inch ins are TRS Balanced inputs , And there is a Digital preamp for those inputs , and they are VERY clean , Almost TOO clean

I had the mics over a half a meter away from my Acoustic , and was pegging the meters with just finger picking, Not using a pick.

I appreciate what your saying , and the variables were taken into consideration for my own personal hearing ( what I am looking for out of the unit. The MD has a Mic input , and the associated mic was a Sony product designed specifically for the Input , The ECM 909a although a little older was made for use with DAT and MD . I also have an AT 822 ( Audio Technica) but it is a MUCH nicer mic than what I plugged into the MicroTrack. The mics I plugged into the Microtrack were off the shelf bargain buy at Best Buy or Circuit Silly (city) not Pro mics.

The comparison was a fair one , I got a lot of work done on the Floor of the house today , and have a few more Floor panels to get in before I do the Tiles , once that is done , I will sit down with My guitar and record some samples, convince the powers that be to provide a box for me to upload to and I will load the original and not converted,

Again the 1/4 inputs with TRS cables , and the 27db boost in , suprised me quite thouroghly , I had been using it unbalanced , when put to its proper use , There is no noise. And the Sound was FAT , Big and Fat , I was very suprised.

Hey King .....You said a Mouthfull. AMEN

That is part of it , But there are a lot of companies that are for the musician and NOT for the Studio Industry , Tascam is one of them , Most of the employees including the owner are Musicians, and the get it. But the know they gotta make money and the Game is what it is.

I have been a working Musician ( What an oxymoron huh) for 20 + years and have seen the crap that a lot of musicians have had to go through to "make it ".......... I dont call that Making It . you lose your soul

Some relevant sites if you want comparative tests under more controlled conditions:-

http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm

http://www.avisoft.com/test/noisefloors.pdf (does not include MD but still makes some interesting points)

http://beale.best.vwh.net/measure/audio/MZ...Mic_30_150Z.htm - loadsa RH1 measurements.

At the botttom the mention that the "Incompatable Phantom power of the Micro track " wouldnt let the mics perform well. also they set at maximum gain ( which when use WITHOUT the 27 db Digital Boost will bring noise)

Measurement conditions:

Recording format: 44.1 KHz, 16 bit, mono (left channel). All parameters were measured at the maximum available gain setting. Limiter and noise cancel options were disabled. Note that a bit-depth of 24 bit would not improve the noise level figures at these high gain settings. When available, the figures in brackets indicate the manufacturer's specifications.

Then they state that the 24 bit setting would not help . They listed the MicroTrack at 58 db noise floor which is pure BS.

What I heard in my recording was at least 86 db ( at the very minimum) I can Identify most rooms by the recording and am a studio qualified recording engineer , I know what I hear .

The fact that they use incompatable mics with the microtrack immediately sets it to Biased level. The MIcrotrack is way quiter than the Marantz 660 , I have heard them both , in real world conditions. the marantz is nice ... BUT ( there is that word again)

Put a Matched pair of AT 3032 mics w/ TRS Balanced cables on the MicroTrack set at MEDIUM gain , and engage the 27 db pre,

,

Man you would want for naught

[greenmachine]

The Micro Track has two types of inputs , It has a 1/8 stereo input for Mics , but the problem (Where the complaints come from) is the 1/8 plug has a 5 volt output which is too much power for most small stereo mics . Because of that They dont sound good at all, it lowers their output drastically so you have to increase the gain to a ridiculus amount and therefore introduce noise.

I know about three kinds of mics used nowadays:

- the dynamic mic, (doesn't require power at all, large, heavy diaphragm, weak high frequency response)

- the pre-polarized condenser / electret (needs voltage of 1.5-10V typically, usually small)

- the externally polarized condenser (needs voltage of 9-52V typically, usually larger)

As far as I know, both condenser variants increase in sensitivity when using a higher voltage (within the nominal range, overpowering would destroy them).

What kind of mic are you talking about and why do you think 5V would be too high a voltage and decrease sensitivity?

[Strungup]

I know about three kinds of mics used nowadays:

- the dynamic mic, (doesn't require power at all, large, heavy diaphragm, weak high frequency response)

- the pre-polarized condenser / electret (needs voltage of 1.5-10V typically, usually small)

- the externally polarized condenser (needs voltage of 9-52V typically, usually larger)

As far as I know, both condenser variants increase in sensitivity when using a higher voltage (within the nominal range, overpowering would destroy them).

What kind of mic are you talking about and why do you think 5V would be too high a voltage and decrease sensitivity?

hey Green , Most of the "Plug in Power " mics are made for 1.5-3.2 volts DC . Take a Stereo cable . plug into the MD of your choice (Mic input) and take a multi meter , measure the voltage on the left and right , Then set it to measure milliampere. Tell me what you get ( I have had this discussion with M-Audio Engineers,) , Yes if you Built your own mics , wired directly to the M-Audio the mics would work ok. I took the Mic that came with it apart to see if it was Capacitor coupled , NADA, nothing , just a pair of capsules wired directkt to a Plug. The plug in Power mics most have a small circuit (capacitors , and a diode , or similar ) , That connection difference cuases a problem. I did a test and sent the results TO M-Audio , they now Tell you NOT to use the AT-822 on the 1/8 input AND DO NOT use the Phantom Power on the 1/4 input with the AT -822.

The Battery powered , or circuit containing Plug in Power mics do not work well with the Microtrack

I have The ECM-909A, The AT-822 , several smaller AT's an Aiwa Desktop stereo mic, and about 5 other no namers that all work quite well with the MD , Plug them into the Microtrack , and it ruined 1 of them (The Aiwa) and the others all sounded like crap. The AT -822 was worthless on the 1/8 input .

if you have a chance go to a store and test a Microtrack , the 1/8 input sucks ( their included mic was Ok but nothing to write home about,

But when I ran the Balanced inputs using proper cables , with moderate mics, it was a very different story.

Just try it.

Edited March 22, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[rayzray]

i (rayzray) am really trying hard to follow this;; and how it would affect ME if i owned one..

this unit doesn't seem "User-Friendly" and seems to be a "Field Recorder".. am i right..

are we comparing apples and oranges?? why would this unit take the place of an RH1,, or any other MD to an average A/V enthusiast that just want to do great things with what i got..

i have the money to buy this;; but;; i can also buy 4 Murciam (sp) pipes instead.. (i don't smoke)..

Edited March 22, 2007 by rayzray

[Strungup]

i (rayzray) am really trying hard to follow this;; and how it would affect ME if i owned one..

this unit doesn't seem "User-Friendly" and seems to be a "Field Recorder".. am i right..

are we comparing apples and oranges?? why would this unit take the place of an RH1,, or any other MD to an average A/V enthusiast that just want to do great things with what i got..

i have the money to buy this;; but;; i can also buy 4 Murciam (sp) pipes instead.. (i don't smoke)..

Yes it is a field recorder , But for a great many other uses , since it acts as a Hard drive , it is just drag and drop , no software interface needed, The files are mp3(at any bit rate) and Wav (at several quality choices) which means for people who dont have an RH1 you can record your MD this and upload as a Wav , Or MP3 whatever you choose( Time consuming but....) The files are also immediately compatable with any Sound editing program , or Multitrack Program , Drag and drop. it is fairly easy to use, I wish it used AA's instead of Lithium , but I have an external USB power pack.

The Difference between the R-09 (Edirol) and the Microtrack is the built in mics on the Edirol and it uses AA batts.the Mics sound pretty good , but if you want to use Good mics , well your sorta stuck. The Microtrack will use (In the 1/4 inputs) any AT mic , Most Sennheisers, BeyerDynamic , Blue , as long as the Phantom power rating is 11-52 ( meaning it will accept a lower voltage)

The MD requires a seperate preamp to run any of those types of mics ,as does the R-09

And the difference is very clear , Good mics ( I have used too many to count) make ALL the difference, coupled with good pre's and your machine WHATEVER it is ,takes on a whole new personality

Ease of use ,: first I go into menus , select REC settings (file type, quality , monitor, Preamp gain , Stereo or mono, etc )

exit that and just leave it.

when I go to record , I hit ONE button , active Rec Levels right on front ( Linkable so you only have to use one) file number is created and your recording, so that is pretty easy .

Advanced features you explore a little , to reset the file count ,you format the card.

Pretty basic. Also , you can use HUGE capacity media , 10 gb card No prob ,throw it in, both MicroDrives and CF are recocnized.

My MD will never get " Replaced" it is my everyday machine, but for more detail and clarity I break out The Microtrack.

I could run a pair of AKG C3000 mics direct to the MicroTrack ..... AT 3032's ......... Shure SM81 's (OH Yeah)

That is how it would affect you , and as far as Apples and Oranges , yes a little of that going on, but I like my Apples sliced thin mixed with Orange chunks , and a can of Peaches dumped on top w/ Cinammon and Ice Cream .

Edited March 22, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[rayzray]

^ thanks for the explanation;; it's getting clearer..

today i put $500 in my pocket (i ain't rich) and went to the Guitar Center nearest me..

i was "Game" to but SOMETHING;; i am itching to buy "something"..

it cudda been this;; but they didn't have one;; and "Didn't wanna hear it"..

they did have a Boss/Roland B?900 with a built in CD-R/CD-RW Drive;; but it just didnt "fly" and was too big and about $700..

soo i went to Taco Bell and got a Bean Barrito with only da beans..

then i came home $498 richer;; NOW i am rich..

ok,, the best part of your explanation was::

(That is how it would affect you , and as far as Apples and Oranges , yes a little of that going on, but I like my Apples sliced thin mixed with Orange chunks , and a can of Peaches dumped on top w/ Cinammon and Ice Cream . tongue.gif)

THAT,, i understand..

Edited March 22, 2007 by rayzray

[Strungup]

:acute: :lol:

Too funny man , I worked for Guitar center in SF a looooong time ago

[King Ghidora]

Doesn't the Zoom H4 get around some of the problems with the R-09 and the MicroTrack. It takes balanced mics with phantom power so it isnt limited to the plug in power condensers that we are mostly all using. At least that's what I've heard from people. Do you have any experience with this recorder? I've heard the complaints about the MicroTrack before as far as using plug in power mics with it. I think that turned a lot of people against it. Apparently they just didn't try the right setup of mics with it.

Also we've been talking about getting a multi-track Portastudio type recorder for the band I work with. Any suggestions on a budget version? I've heard good things about the Fostex MR8 as a budget model (yeah it's a cheap bunch of geezers - they'll pay 5 grand for a third mandolin but won't pay much of anything for a recorder ) Any suggetions in this area? I've been recording with a single mic and my HIMD which I actually think works pretty well for a bluegrass band if you set things up right. It's not going to be mistaken for a studio recording but it's just mainly about practice CD's anyway. I'd like to move up to a better quality level but I think it would cost quite a bit because it would mean moving to close micing which means a whole series of mics would need to be bought. It's just something I do as a hobby anyway. My business is video.

[Strungup]

Doesn't the Zoom H4 get around some of the problems with the R-09 and the MicroTrack. It takes balanced mics with phantom power so it isnt limited to the plug in power condensers that we are mostly all using. At least that's what I've heard from people. Do you have any experience with this recorder? I've heard the complaints about the MicroTrack before as far as using plug in power mics with it. I think that turned a lot of people against it. Apparently they just didn't try the right setup of mics with it.

Also we've been talking about getting a multi-track Portastudio type recorder for the band I work with. Any suggestions on a budget version? I've heard good things about the Fostex MR8 as a budget model (yeah it's a cheap bunch of geezers - they'll pay 5 grand for a third mandolin but won't pay much of anything for a recorder ) Any suggetions in this area? I've been recording with a single mic and my HIMD which I actually think works pretty well for a bluegrass band if you set things up right. It's not going to be mistaken for a studio recording but it's just mainly about practice CD's anyway. I'd like to move up to a better quality level but I think it would cost quite a bit because it would mean moving to close micing which means a whole series of mics would need to be bought. It's just something I do as a hobby anyway. My business is video.

The Tascam DP01 , for just plain basic , and easy to use , on the recording end anyway , after , the transfer setup is a bit involved but under 300 for 8 tracks and a 40 gb drive , and the inputs are fairly clean , The Zoom , Preamps are a little noisy , unless you have Hot mics. I think they tried to put too much stuff into it . But for an Idea catcher , Ambient sounds, etc or Loud stuff ( Then you can use the limiter and forget about noise)

By the way , I went out today and Bought the Fancy remote for the RH1 , There are extra menu funtions in it and the scrolling , OH God the SCroollling , ( wait , didnt they say that at the Apple iPhone release,....sorry )

Edited March 23, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[rayzray]

....Also we've been talking about getting a multi-track Portastudio type recorder for the band I work with. Any suggestions on a budget version? I've heard good things about the Fostex MR8 as a budget model (yeah it's a cheap bunch of geezers - they'll pay 5 grand for a third mandolin but won't pay much of anything for a recorder ) Any suggetions in this area? I've been recording with a single mic and my HIMD which I actually think works pretty well for a bluegrass band if you set things up right. It's not going to be mistaken for a studio recording but it's just mainly about practice CD's anyway. I'd like to move up to a better quality level but I think it would cost quite a bit because it would mean moving to close micing which means a whole series of mics would need to be bought. It's just something I do as a hobby anyway. My business is video.

why not just get a nice mixer for Hi-MD??

[Strungup]

why not just get a nice mixer for Hi-MD??

http://www.rolls.com/products/mx34.php

[rayzray]

yeah,, nice;; i've been looking at that one at the music stores;; instead of using my 10 channel Behringer (w/ 9V capability).. but,, then i don't record "out" too often anymore..

[Strungup]

yeah,, nice;; i've been looking at that one at the music stores;; instead of using my 10 channel Behringer (w/ 9V capability).. but,, then i don't record "out" too often anymore..

You mean they have it in STORE where you are? , I have to order everything no fair. (No rolls dealers in this area of Japan)