Sony ditches ATRAC, SonicStage in B100 solid state walkman

[Sparky191]

You are right, the artist/album list is alphabetical, but the track list for each selected album/artist as well.

Why would you sort an albums tracks alphabetically?

Edited August 19, 2007 by Sparky191

[MD_MM_05]

Why would you sort an albums tracks alphabetically?

It's a limitation of the players software and I dont like it .

[Sparky191]

It's a limitation of the players software and I dont like it .

A bug in effect. My Samsung player has a similar bug. But a workaround for me, is that it can switch between filename or ID3 tags so I use the former.

[1kyle]

Actually the Drag 'n drop idea was about to happen anyway since Walmart and others started allowing (finally) downloadable DRM free music (although I believe this is still compressed so you won't get CD / WAV quality).

It will eventually happen that we will be able to get downloadable uncompressed DRM free music --till then the CD will still be around --an even older piece of gear than the (potentially) superior MD.

This little snippet from the BBC basically comes up with the intense irritation that consumers get when they have purchased something and find that they can't really use it in the way they want to.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6949607.stm

Dropping ATRAC is perhaps a bad idea -- they don't actually have to do that to provide drag 'n drop -- in fact with the really fast chipsets available these days a built in atrac<=====>mp3 de / transcoder could actually work as well.

I don't think this per se signals the death knell for the MD format. The RH1 is still selling for around 220 GBP / 310 EUR in the UK and is still very popular.

A real drag 'n drop MD 4th generation recorder would be fantastic if SONY could do it --also un-restricting the Net MD stuff which really crippled the format.

Cheers

-K

Edited August 22, 2007 by 1kyle

[kentek]

Greeting guys,

I've been reading this post with complete amazement and confusion. It seems to me that the only issue HiMD users have is how to download recorded tracks from their Minidiscs to any device they want and to be able to convert to any other format they wish.

This is a software issue, is it not?

Surely there are competent s/f engineers that can reverse engineer Sony's basket case database and file structure.

Collectively, is it not possible to offer compensation to someone with the talent to provide a new software product?

Just how much could it cost?

Or, is it that Sony may sue to protect it's proprietary software even though they are not supporting it any more? If it is valuable to minidisc users why should we not attempt to produce the software that we would really want to use?

What am I missing here?

[1kyle]

Greeting guys,

I've been reading this post with complete amazement and confusion. It seems to me that the only issue HiMD users have is how to download recorded tracks from their Minidiscs to any device they want and to be able to convert to any other format they wish.

This is a software issue, is it not?

Surely there are competent s/f engineers that can reverse engineer Sony's basket case database and file structure.

Collectively, is it not possible to offer compensation to someone with the talent to provide a new software product?

Just how much could it cost?

Or, is it that Sony may sue to protect it's proprietary software even though they are not supporting it any more? If it is valuable to minidisc users why should we not attempt to produce the software that we would really want to use?

What am I missing here?

Actually I think a lot of people have tried cracking the ATRAC DRM encryption algorithms but without much success. The Engineers at Sony should have been put in charge of sites protecting against "Identity Theft" etc.

Note here I'm discussing cracking the CD ripping algorithm as this is not restricted by patented technology and "normal CD's" still don't have DRM applied to them.

I'm not suggesting that you should try and break i_choones etc.

Most systems have been hacked one way or another but MD ATRAC still is as hard a nut to crack as was until recently Fermat's last theorem ( for any Integer > 2 there is NO solution to the equation X to the power n +plus Y to the power n = Z to the power n. Solved a few years ago by an English Mathematician Wiles using techniques that didn't exist in Fermat's time).

I think also that people will still want some type of Music Management software -- just drag and drop won't manage your music decently when you get a few thousand tracks.

I'm a Pro photographer and have a similar problem managing databases of 100'000's of photos.

However I still love my MD units and theres years of life left in them yet.

Cheers

-K

Edited August 23, 2007 by 1kyle

[Sparky191]

Greeting guys,

I've been reading this post with complete amazement and confusion. It seems to me that the only issue HiMD users have is how to download recorded tracks from their Minidiscs to any device they want and to be able to convert to any other format they wish.

This is a software issue, is it not?

Surely there are competent s/f engineers that can reverse engineer Sony's basket case database and file structure.

Collectively, is it not possible to offer compensation to someone with the talent to provide a new software product?

Just how much could it cost?

Or, is it that Sony may sue to protect it's proprietary software even though they are not supporting it any more? If it is valuable to minidisc users why should we not attempt to produce the software that we would really want to use?

What am I missing here?

People have tried and failed. Also its most likely copyright violation. I would assume Sony specifically prohibits reverse engineering.

...

I think also that people will still want some type of Music Management software -- just drag and drop won't manage your music decently when you get a few thousand tracks.

I'm a Pro photographer and have a similar problem managing databases of 100'000's of photos.

...

Don't really agree with that. At the end of the day they are all filing systems. Obviously with a true database you have more options on how to search. But even a flat file system large amounts of data can be managed.

[1kyle]

People have tried and failed. Also its most likely copyright violation. I would assume Sony specifically prohibits reverse engineering.

Don't really agree with that. At the end of the day they are all filing systems. Obviously with a true database you have more options on how to search. But even a flat file system large amounts of data can be managed.

Actually whether the data is held in a flat file or some sophisticated data base system people will STILL want some logical way of retrieving the data.

You might want particular tracks or types of tracks.

I can assure you it's not easy searching through ANY large filing system without some decent search criteria / indexing.

Music management software doesn't have to imply DRM restrictions in any way whatsoever. DRM is a property thta's applied to the DATA - not to the search engine used to find the track(s).

Even if you have a decent memory managing say up to 30 albums (on average around 300 tracks) can be done manually --but over that it becomes incresingly more difficult unless you choose the same tracks over and over again.

Once you get into the 150 plus albums (>1500 tracks) then most people will have a problem with manual retriecal -- that's why they use playlists etc --these are a basic "music management system" albeit rather manual. Newer systems would automate this process more..

Cheers

-K

[Sparky191]

My comments re copywrite refer to writing software to handle encode/decode ATRAC/OMA files and their transfer back and forth to Sony devices like HiMD.

Can't agree about your limits on files. My music library is about 12,000 files and 50 GB's. All organised pretty well by filetree IMO. I think the deepest it goes is 4 levels. So max of 4 doubleclicks to find any file. I organise both by filetree and ID3 tag as I have different players, some use tags some don't. Come to think of it if I consider all my other data photos, graphics, docs, work progects etc I'd easily have > 100,000 all well organised by file tree. Got knows who many files I'd manage at work.

Obviously there are limitations. If you want to search by all artists who released an album in 1994 with more than 10 tracks and with "k" in their name. Then I could only do that by using a database of some sort. But I think people who do that are beyond "normal" users.

[1kyle]

My comments re copywrite refer to writing software to handle encode/decode ATRAC/OMA files and their transfer back and forth to Sony devices like HiMD.

Can't agree about your limits on files. My music library is about 12,000 files and 50 GB's. All organised pretty well by filetree IMO. I think the deepest it goes is 4 levels. So max of 4 doubleclicks to find any file. I organise both by filetree and ID3 tag as I have different players, some use tags some don't. Come to think of it if I consider all my other data photos, graphics, docs, work progects etc I'd easily have > 100,000 all well organised by file tree. Got knows who many files I'd manage at work.

Obviously there are limitations. If you want to search by all artists who released an album in 1994 with more than 10 tracks and with "k" in their name. Then I could only do that by using a database of some sort. But I think people who do that are beyond "normal" users.

Hi sparky -- That's the WHOLE POINT. You are using filetree --OK --it's still an INFORMATION RETRIEVAL SYSTEM. You've applied an ID3 filetag to the tracks so you can retrieve them.

My whole point here was to say that once you get beyond a certain number of tracks you DO need some type of search algorithm to find / organise the tracks.

Windows explorer etc just won't cut it anymore.

Your post here just amplifies exactly what I've been saying. It doesn't mean you have to use commercial software but you have just shown that you DO need some type of system to manage the music tracks.

Cheers

-K

Edited August 27, 2007 by 1kyle

[Sparky191]

Hi sparky -- That's the WHOLE POINT. You are using filetree --OK --it's still an INFORMATION RETRIEVAL SYSTEM. You've applied an ID3 filetag to the tracks so you can retrieve them.

My whole point here was to say that once you get beyond a certain number of tracks you DO need some type of search algorithm to find / organise the tracks.

Windows explorer etc just won't cut it anymore.

Your post here just amplifies exactly what I've been saying. It doesn't mean you have to use commercial software but you have just shown that you DO need some type of system to manage the music tracks.

Cheers

-K

I don't get you. I don't use the tags. I use file names and folders. My usual playback and navigation is with the filetree mode in MediaMonkey. Its the same as explorer but with a player. I also use filetree to copy the files on to my Samsung MP3 player. The MP3 player is set to use filetree no ID3 tags. So I don't use the ID3 tags for navigation or playback. I only use ID3 tags when I have a player that doesn't support filetree. Like a HiMD, Creative or iPod etc. MediaMonkey has some powerful functionality for building tags from filetree and building filetree from tags. So thats handy for cleaning up stuff thats named or tagged badly. But thats really only to be pedantic. I don't need the tags. Same way I don't need ID3 tags for any of my other non music data.

The limitation of filetree is not the number of files or finding files. Its limitation comes when you want to complex searches which go beyond simply finding a file, or create complex relationships between data. IMO

Edited August 27, 2007 by Sparky191

[reefbeef]

Not sure if this applies to this mp3 player, but maybe worth knowing about...

Researchers Say Sony Software makes PCs Vulnerable

Is Sonicstage a similar type software? My PC did crash on me recently. Had to replace the hard drive.

[Sparky191]

Not sure if this applies to this mp3 player, but maybe worth knowing about...

Researchers Say Sony Software makes PCs Vulnerable

Is Sonicstage a similar type software? My PC did crash on me recently. Had to replace the hard drive.

1. No

2. Thats a mechanical failure nothing to do with software.

[Will Fastie]

Looks like Sony is going the whole way. I received this in email a few minutes ago.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

August 30, 2007

Subject: Future of CONNECT Music Service

To Our Valued Sony CONNECT Music Customers:

Today Sony announced its intent to move to a Windows Media Technology platform for Walkman® products in the United States, Canada and Europe. We strongly believe that the decision to embrace a more open platform for these devices will enable us to provide you with a better overall experience. As a result of this change, we will be phasing out the CONNECT™ Music Service based on Sony's ATRAC audio format in North America and Europe. Specific timing will vary by region depending on market demand, but will not be before March 2008.

We are fully committed to helping you through this important transition away from the CONNECT Music Service and providing you with the best possible guidance on how to successfully transfer your music library to an MP3 or Windows Media-compatible format, should you wish to do so. We recommend that you use any outstanding promotional codes, account credits or gift certificates available in your music account prior to March 2008, but even after the store closes you will continue to be able to play, manage, and transfer the music in your SonicStage library and on your existing ATRAC devices. If you obtain a new device, all of Sony’s new Walkman music and video players will support MP3 or Windows Media Audio format.

In the coming months we will keep you informed of the status of the CONNECT Music Service phase out in your region. Periodic updates will be posted on the CONNECT music store and on the Sony Electronics customer service site, http://esupport.sony.com/EN/news/article215.

Please note that the CONNECT e-book service for the Reader in the U.S. will not be affected.

Thank you for your business and for your continued support as we work to complete this transition with as little disruption to you as possible.

Sincerely,

Sony CONNECT Music Team

[Sparky191]

"all of Sony’s new Walkman music and video players MP3 or WMA"

[Will Fastie]

I guess this is the last nail in the coffin. I only see one Sony MiniDisc recorder, the MZ-M200, and it does not support MP3 and WMA directly.

On the other hand, I see several digital voice recorders with stereo mics priced well under $400 list. Of course, there is the fancy PCM-D1 recorder ($2K) on the pro side.

Too bad.

Will

[Guest bugnot]

http://news.connect-europe.com/I?a=A9X7Cqn...38TZjuaKijmTiug

"CONNECT Music Service to Phase Out

To Our Valued Sony CONNECT Customers,

Today Sony announced its intent to move to a Windows Media Technology platform for Walkman® products in the United States, Canada and Europe. We strongly believe that the decision to embrace a more open platform will enable us to provide you with a better music enjoyment experience. As a result of this change, we will be phasing out the CONNECT™ Music Service, based on Sony's ATRAC audio format, in North America and Europe. Specific timing will vary by region depending on market demand, but will not be before March 2008.

All of Sony's new Walkman music and video devices will be supported by a very wide range of third party services around Europe.

We are fully committed to helping you through this important transition away from a proprietary music service. In the coming weeks and months, we will keep you closely informed of the status of the CONNECT Music Service phase out in your country, and provide you with the best possible guidance on how to successfully transfer your music library to an MP3 or Windows Media-compatible format. Periodic updates will also be posted on the CONNECT music store and on the Sony Europe customer service site, http://support.sony-europe.com

We recommend that you use any outstanding promotional vouchers or account credits prior to March 2008.

Thank you for all your purchases and feedback so far, and for your continued support as we work to complete this transition with as little disruption to you as possible.

Yours sincerely,

Sony CONNECT Europe Team"

Edited August 30, 2007 by bugnot

[Sparky191]

If you consider SonicStage supports MP3 and WMA, including WMA lossless, (albeit without gapless)

[A440]

This was a bounce from the closed thread about Sony closing the Connect Store--although that's really different news from what this started with.

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=19766

Richyhu noted that Sony has a conversion tool for ATRAC to .mp3.

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/swu-downl...71&os_id=30

But it's not going to help Connect suckers--er, customers--because:

"The MP3 Conversion Tool can be used to convert non-DRM protected ATRAC® format audio files stored in your computer to MP3 format audio files"

Aren't Connect files DRM'd?

To be fair to Connect customers who paid actual money for their music like good legal citizens, Sony really ought to release a tool to unlock the DRM on ATRAC, once and for all. It's officially a dead format, and those who are trapped in the ATRAC zone should finally get full use out of it.

Earth to Sony: There's nothing left to protect.

[Strungup]

The Important intsructions included this little tidbit.

"Audio tracks purchased from music distribution services on the Internet cannot be converted to MP3 format.

When converting ATRAC files to MP3 files, the ATRAC files are not automatically deleted. There is a user selectable option in the conversion tool to delete the ATRAC files after conversion.

OpenMG™ Secure Module must be installed in your computer. If OpenMG Secure Module is not installed on your computer, an error message will be displayed instructing you to install the latest version of SonicStage® software. Click here to download SonicStage version 4.3.

To ensure that no other program interferes with this utility, save all work and close all other programs. The Taskbar should be clear of applications before proceeding.

It is highly recommended to print out these instructions as a reference."

Highlight the fact that your ATRAC file you Payed for connot be converted.

My suggestion would be to record everything from the line out ,salvage everything you can , in a NON DRMed format . a real pain in the @$$ but the only truly safe way to save all of the stuff youve got.

Edited August 30, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[803cd]

"Today Sony announced its intent to move to a Windows Media Technology platform for Walkman® products in the United States, Canada and Europe."

Is ATRAC totally dead or will it live on in Japan/Asia?

[mmp64]

"Today Sony announced its intent to move to a Windows Media Technology platform for Walkman® products in the United States, Canada and Europe."

Is ATRAC totally dead or will it live on in Japan/Asia?

If I had to guess, I would say that further development of the Codec is dead, but that they will continue to support SonicStage or equivalent in Japan. In the States, I would think we have seen the last release of SonicStage, save possibly for patch releases to plug security issues.

[Tunster]

Very simply, if Sony had released source code and made ATRAC an open format from the beginning, god knows how superior it would be today. To compress 1,411kbps to 292kbps in the 1980s must of been a marvel. Possibly, Sony could of got ahead of the MPEG standards by going open-source and really leashed the MD format. Obviously they we're too short-sighted to see the opertunity.

As Sony had only control over the format, this is why it's died. Programmers wanting to use the format couldn't alter it, change it or do anything to it. I guess we won't see the SDK to the ATRAC format that they promised last year.

[mmp64]

Very simply, if Sony had released source code and made ATRAC an open format from the beginning, god knows how superior it would be today. To compress 1,411kbps to 292kbps in the 1980s must of been a marvel. Possibly, Sony could of got ahead of the MPEG standards by going open-source and really leashed the MD format. Obviously they we're too short-sighted to see the opertunity.

As Sony had only control over the format, this is why it's died. Programmers wanting to use the format couldn't alter it, change it or do anything to it. I guess we won't see the SDK to the ATRAC format that they promised last year.

Agreed. By trying to control everything, they gained nothing.

Even though I knew this was coming, it is still hard to believe. Look at supported formats.

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores...552921665203467

Edited September 3, 2007 by mmp64

[803cd]

Looks like ATRAC will live on in Japan:

http://www.atraclife.com/2007/09/11/atrac-...eries/#more-257

Recording features too!

[sallymae_hogsby]

Recording features too!

That in itself is quite interesting. I assume the recording would be ATRAC or PCM? Are there any consumer recorders that actually record in MP3 or WMA? Come to think of it, are there any consumer line-in recorders on the market at all, now?

[Strungup]

That in itself is quite interesting. I assume the recording would be ATRAC or PCM? Are there any consumer recorders that actually record in MP3 or WMA? Come to think of it, are there any consumer line-in recorders on the market at all, now?

several hundred , that is why MD is being dropped like it is . Just google "mp3 recorder" "stereo Recording" ( which doesnt mean the same thing anymore, in the Tech of my day Stereo Recording Meant recording from your stereo ..... go figure) There are Hard drive based MP3/Wav recorders , Flash Besed , CF Card Based, Microdrive based ,..... Selectable formats ,Bit rates, Sample Rates in fact a Lot of just basic MP3 Players have Line input now, for Recording