Sony MZ-RH1 vs Apple Itouch (New Generation)

[joplin]

Hi

I'm looking for honest opinions NO BS in regards to the Ipod Touch vs Sony MD MZ-RH1.(I'm not trying to start a war here, just looking for honest opinions.)

I'm also owned the MZ-NH1 ans currently have the Onkyo MD133 home unit. I'm limited in my technical knowledge of sound difference but my ears can appreciate great sound.

What I really love about the Itouch is the size and the quanity of music it can hold plus there is np need to carry your MDs with you.

I still plan on keeping my MD units and any recordings will be done on the 1GB MD disk so that I can play and record on both units in the same format

in the same format.

First off I plan on getting all my music from my original CDs and want to record them in the best format that will bring out the best quality sound. What is the best format to use?

Next I plan to take all this music and put it on a 32GB Itouch in the best format also? I realize I may have to sacrifice space to do this, but that is okay.

If I use a High Quality ear buds such as Etymotic ER-4p /Shure SE310 ear buds and record the music in the best format to enhance the sound will I be pleased with the ITouch sound in the end. I have great hearing and appreciate great sound and due to the fact I'm 59 yrs young I do not hear everything.

As I stated at the begining I'm not trying to wage a war between the MD crowd and the Apple people, I just want to hear what you think about both of these different units. I'm not big on reall technical terms and appreciate more down to earth talk. IE On a scale of 1-10 I give the MD 9 and the Ipod Touch 7 and the reasons why?(This is an example.)

I look forward to hearing your ideas and why in regards to the above.

Thanks

Greg Joplin

[Strungup]

Any kin to Janet Joplin ???

The RH1 is MADE for Recording ....... With dedicated High Quality Mic Preamp built in . The iPod Recording is a Software based issue , and an Afterthought , not a Forethought .

So It becomes processor intensive , and the need for accessories , is Immediate .

[culp4684]

I agree. You're comparing apples and oranges here.

Besides, if you really are concerned about the quantity of music in a DAP, you can do a lot better than the capacity of the Touch. Even if you stuck with an iPod...

I bought a Zune 80 a few months back and absolutely love the sound quality. It's a great iPod alternative if you're worried about the "sheep" status...

Edited November 30, 2008 by culp4684

[jupitreas]

iPods are notorious for mediocre sound quality. Never owned one myself but I did get to test out a few units that friends own. No idea if the latest generation ipods are any better at SQ but I wouldnt bet on it.

I also recommend going with some alternative mp3 player instead of the iPod. The Zune is one option, reportedly certain Sony and Samsung units also have great SQ (you'd need to do some research on the net before buying). The latest Sansa players are very good as well, in terms of sound quality.

[tekdroid]

First off I plan on getting all my music from my original CDs and want to record them in the best format that will bring out the best quality sound. What is the best format to use?

Linear PCM on the Hi-MD.

Next I plan to take all this music and put it on a 32GB Itouch in the best format also? I realize I may have to sacrifice space to do this, but that is okay.

Apple Lossless. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Lossless

If I use a High Quality ear buds such as Etymotic ER-4p /Shure SE310 ear buds and record the music in the best format to enhance the sound will I be pleased with the ITouch sound in the end.

Nobody can answer that but you. The audio itself will be the highest quality you can obtain on each device, so there's nothing more you can do there. It's down to each device's sonic signature, and how they interact with the headphones and your ears (and tastes). I would place very little stock in what anyone else says about sound until listening to it myself.

[samueldilworth]

I'm one of those seemingly rare people that think both Apple and Sony make great products. Each have their strengths and weaknesses, but both create innovative products that push the envelope and redefine expectations.

That said, the Sony MZ-RH1 (which I'm planning to get) and the Apple iPod touch are very different beasts. One has superb recording abilities in addition to playback, while the other for all practical purposes cannot record but has 32 GB of flash memory, a large screen, Wi-Fi, and software that lets you do a lot of things besides play music, such as browse the internet. The iPod touch is also one of the best iPods in terms of sound quality and is certainly very good, if possibly measurably worse than the MZ-RH1. (With perfect digital audio files the sound quality depends primarily on the digital-to-analogue converter and headphone amplifier of the player, and Sony is very good at this type of thing.)

As you probably know, digital music is stored as ones and zeros. It can be compressed with either a lossy or lossless compression scheme (codec), to take up less storage space on your computer or player. Lossy codecs such as MP3, AAC, or ATRAC lose information, i.e. the ones and zeros are not reproduced exactly. However the sound quality can be perceptually identical if the compression isn't too severe (the exact compression ratio that is "transparent" depends on the codec and listener). Lossless codecs such Apple Lossless and FLAC (Free Lossless Audio Codec) do not achieve as high compression ratios as lossy codecs, but enable a bit-for-bit identical reproduction of the music.

One advantage of a lossless codec over lossy codecs is that second-generation lossy copies can be made that have perceptually identical quality, whereas transcoding a lossy codec to another lossy codec creates progressively poorer quality with each generation, like photocopying a photocopy repeatedly. This can be important depending on your workflow. If for some reason you want to change the format of your music (e.g. you switch from an iPod to something else), you can make perfect copies to another lossless codec, e.g. from Apple Lossless to FLAC. If your music is in a lossy codec like ATRAC you cannot make bit-perfect copies in another lossy codec like MP3 (though you can make perfect copies with a lossless codec, at the expensive of much larger files).

The iPod touch supports Apple Lossless, while the MZ-RH1 has no lossless codec support. It does support Linear PCM which is a full-size bit-perfect audio stream.

I can't really help with your decision, but my suggestion is to make sure that when you rip your CDs to your computer you make lossless copies (e.g. Apple Lossless, FLAC, or full-size WAV or AIFF files). This will give you more flexibility in the future, even if you don't listen to these files directly on your portable audio player. With a perfect original you can create compressed copies in ATRAC (for the MZ-RH1) or AAC (for the iPod touch) or MP3 (for both devices) that will sound as good as the original.

Hope this is more helpful than confusing!

Edited December 1, 2008 by HCB

[BIGHMW]

iPods are notorious for mediocre sound quality. Never owned one myself but I did get to test out a few units that friends own. No idea if the latest generation ipods are any better at SQ but I wouldnt bet on it.

I also recommend going with some alternative mp3 player instead of the iPod. The Zune is one option, reportedly certain Sony and Samsung units also have great SQ (you'd need to do some research on the net before buying). The latest Sansa players are very good as well, in terms of sound quality.

But, if you really enjoy the ATRAC series of codecs, I highly recommend either the Sony NW-HD or NW-A Series, such as the award-winning 20-gig NW-HD5. It is fully compatible with SonicStage and uses the ATRAC3/3plus codecs and also wil work with MP3 codec as well. It also sounds great, knowing Sony, with 4 preset EQ's, and 4 custom EQ's (2 6-band graphic EQ's as well as 2 bass/treble EQ's) as well as for Surround Sound (VPF Acoustic Engine) presets.

You'll find one on eBay, but get ready to shell out some $$$ for it, even a good used one will go for about $100.00 USD and it also has a replaceable LiIon battery as opposed to the iTouch's embedded one, in which when it dies, you have to send the entire unit (music and all) to Apple where they will gouge you out of $$$ to replace it.

Edited December 3, 2008 by BIGHMW

[Levanel]

I think you'll find that the RH1 is for hardcore audiophiles while the iPod Touch compensates it's audio quality for ease of use (a nice UI based off OSX) and being a glorified media player..

IMHO, I think you'd be better off with an iPod for it's name/recognition in portability. The latest generations are flash-based (no moving parts) compared to the latest MD unit which still builds on the moving-parts principle. But I realize this thread is somewhat about audio quality and that's where the RH1 doesn't go wrong with.

Edited December 3, 2008 by Levanel

[Sony_Fan]

The majority of music listeners out there don't care much about the sound quality as much as we do on this forum. iPod is designed for ease of use because Apple feels that their customers are nitwits who can't find their way out of a paper pag. Without reading the owners manual, anyone one of us on here can figure out how to use a new iPod, but give an iPod user an MZ-RH1 and wait for them to say, "duh, what is this?" or "where is the pretty color screen?" "is it broke?." Basically, the iPod will never sound as great as Minidisc or Hi-MD units, as long as Apple keeps focusing on appearance rather than quality.

[Syrius]

Funny you should say that. I've tried to use an I-pod, and for all the "ease of use" the Apple Drones claim it has, I can't figure out how to use it since it's so over-simplified. I don't mean to sound insulting (well, actually I do ) but it's important to notice that Apple has built its products around the idea that its customers need help figuring out how to press a button.

[1kyle]

I think there are a few home truths that should be addressed here --- many people are put off by the "difficulty" of MD's compared to using something like an IPOD.

When you have a large amount of music stored on a single device it becomes increaingly difficult to store and mange it. - Playlists become horrible to maintain.

Getting music into and out of the device is also not as simple as people seem to imply that it is. -- I find some Apple software just as horrendous as Sony's SS and the quality (to say nothing of the DRM problems) of downloaded music from such places a sI-Tunes is pretty horrible to say the least.

Getting music into an Ipod (or similar) also requires a computer. If your Ipod breaks / your computer disks go south etc or your equipment gets stolen your music is GONE - GONE (how many people in spite of being warned nearly every day actually BACK UP their computer data).

No self respecting burgular is going to walk away with an armful of minidiscs.

MD's can take music from all sorts of sources and are not essentially dependent on having to use a computer to store the music. Recording live gigs in particular are a great use for MD's.

I'Other remarks about MD's and storing music.

1) Store your music on your computer in Uncompressed Format or use a LOSSLESS Compression - preferably an Open Codec so you can do wahtever you like with it regardless of the hardware you are using.

2) I use FLAC but there are plenty of others.

3) For any sort of portable listening a 1GM MD disc will hold (at 256 kb) around 7 1/2 hrs music --surely more than enough for typical listening sessions. Take 2 minidiscs if you like. Tthat's 15 hours worth --more than enough.

With your own library you can easily create "Virtual CD's" using NERO Drive Image, Linux (mount ISO) or Alcohol 52%. Nero Drive image will not run on Vista so an XP virtual machine is fine.

Use Simple Burner to transfer your "Virtual audio CD" to MD. (Again Simple Burner doesn't work on VISTA) but does on a Virtual XP machine.

Simple Burner is a doddle to use -- so getting music on to MD IMO is not a big problem however you compile your tracks.

Incidentally with the Nero plugin pack you can burn an audio CD (Real or Virtual) directly from a load of codecs - including flac --no transcoding on your part required.

Cheers

-K

Cheers

-K

[joplin]

The majority of music listeners out there don't care much about the sound quality as much as we do on this forum. iPod is designed for ease of use because Apple feels that their customers are nitwits who can't find their way out of a paper pag. Without reading the owners manual, anyone one of us on here can figure out how to use a new iPod, but give an iPod user an MZ-RH1 and wait for them to say, "duh, what is this?" or "where is the pretty color screen?" "is it broke?." Basically, the iPod will never sound as great as Minidisc or Hi-MD units, as long as Apple keeps focusing on appearance rather than quality.

Hi Chris

I wrote the original aticle asking about the MZ-RH1 vs the new Ipod touch and after reading all your comments and having time to reflect myself. I realize that I have a superb unit in my possesion which I have hardly used. I realize now that if I re-cord in lossless format/buy a good set of headphones that in the end I will have a unit that can Kick Ass.

Furthermore I feel Apple Itouch is a sub standard unit in quality and sound and the only thing going for it is its pretty package.

So until some company comes out with an awesome package which includes a built in amp and EQ and lg flash drive and whatever else is needed for it to surpass the Sony MD . I will stick with my MZ-RH1.

Even though the CES is coming out in 2009 there is no mention of anything fantastik in regards to portable players/recorders.

I still can't believe that Sony hasn't come out with something to surpass their MD line.

Greg

[Strungup]

I still can't believe that Sony hasn't come out with something to surpass their MD line.

Greg

It is Called the Sony PCM -D50 ..that is what replaced the MD as far as Sony is concerned

[tekdroid]

I realize now that if I re-cord in lossless format/buy a good set of headphones that in the end I will have a unit that can Kick Ass.

...along with a good mic for live recording.

Though one hassle with Hi-MD units (and everything Sony make today) is they don't drive high-impedance headphones well; their headphone outputs are too low. iRiver, Cowon, Apple, etc all do more here. So if you are going with high-end phones with high-impedance, you may be disappointed at the max volume levels you can achieve with Sony devices, depending on your headphones. Though what you get often sounds good, every device is a trade-off in some area.

ah! speaking of the PCM-D50, just noticed in the manual that the headphone output is a decent 25mW + 25mW into 16ohms. Nooooiccceee. Definitely out of the ordinary for Sony. Though really using this as a traditional Walkman is nice... but I'd probably be babying it constantly as well as having a bad back from it High-stress Walkman.