Wanna Hear A God One ?

[bilb]

Hey everyone, get a load of this !

http://www.pcmag.com/slideshow_viewer/0,12...po%253D4,00.asp

Edited July 3, 2009 by B.I.L.B.

[sfbp]

Argh. Another know-nothing choosing to perpetuate the common view by sharing only the negative. We know, and all those millions of Japanese really cannot be that far wrong.

[tekdroid]

" Despite its ultimate failure, the MiniDisc did plenty of damage as the first medium to represent a degradation in audio quality, rather than an improvement, over what came before it."

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I wonder if the author of this piece has heard of Philips DCC, which was released a little bit before MiniDisc. Or those voice recorders that sold well before both of them. Or that Apple's products can do lossless. Or that the compact cassette is itself a sonic compromise for convenience.

Just another amusing article filled with self-serving links to other articles on their own site, masquerading as informative.

[Abby Normal]

I thought I remember reading something somewhere about some scientists doing a study and finding people couldn't ultimately tell the difference between a regular CD and a SACD, all other things being equal. The difference we perceive is real but only because of the higher production values that went into the remastering process.

[bluecrab]

" Despite its ultimate failure, the MiniDisc did plenty of damage as the first medium to represent a degradation in audio quality, rather than an improvement, over what came before it."

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I wonder if the author of this piece has heard of Philips DCC, which was released a little bit before MiniDisc. Or those voice recorders that sold well before both of them. Or that Apple's products can do lossless. Or that the compact cassette is itself a sonic compromise for convenience.

Just another amusing article filled with self-serving links to other articles on their own site, masquerading as informative.

Despite all our love for MD, the article isn't completely off the wall. For me, at least, MD's size and features offset what I have to admit is indeed reduced SQ. Not as reduced as cassette, of course, but pretty aptly described by "near-CD." How near to CD it is seems to vary. Mostly close enough for me. Furthermore, "today's" MD sounds a lot better than the MD of even 10 years ago.

What I really don't get, and never have, is how the anti-MD crowd can think MP3 is so superior. One lossy format is OK and another isn't? How does that add up!

[tekdroid]

Despite all our love for MD, the article isn't completely off the wall. For me, at least, MD's size and features offset what I have to admit is indeed reduced SQ.

Cannot disagree MD has reduced sound quality compared to CD (except with Hi-MD). But the author has his facts wrong regarding MiniDisc being first to compromise sound for size, convenience, etc. I am not defending MD in the slightest here, but just feel it was hardly the first device to compromise sound quality for other attributes.

In fact, you could argue that CD is a compromise cutting off frequencies beyond 20KHz, which can be felt, if not heard - that in itself was a compromise to keep the disc small and playtimes longer. Everything is a compromise on some level to what came before it. Digital music itself is a compromise in certain areas. Nothing is better in all areas.

I will admit to being excited about pushing well beyond what CD can do, though, which is why higher bitrates and sample rates excite me (and I am glad we have progressed beyond being stingy for space and 16bit bitrates, lower sample rates, etc) - even if that isn't so evident in average devices. Maybe the author of this article feels the same, but he still has his facts wrong.

[LonelyMachines]

Cannot disagree MD has reduced sound quality compared to CD (except with Hi-MD). But the author has his facts wrong regarding MiniDisc being first to compromise sound for size, convenience, etc. I am not defending MD in the slightest here, but just feel it was hardly the first device to compromise sound quality for other attributes.

Yep. No mention of cassettes in the article, which predate MD, and were fragile and inconsistent. The only format with worse SQ was 8-track.

In the other device entries, the article pours praise on Apple and Rio products, but fails to mention the terrible amp quality on early iPods, nor does it mention how bad early versions of the MP3 codec sounded.

Part of this is Sony's fault. They should have marketed MD for its recording capabilities, not as a replacement for CD's. That created a huge amount of prejudice against the format in the American market.

[Abby Normal]

The only format with worse [than cassette] SQ was 8-track.

Slightly veering off-topic:

I'm currently engaged in a quest to acquire equipment to support legacy AV formats for years to come, but I'm skipping some. 8-track I dismiss as an embarrassing era. Reel-to-reel is great, but I'm not getting into that for cost reasons--besides there are enough reel-to-reel enthusiasts for the format to be safely supported for now. Here's my current list on the audio front that I think I would like to support.

• Cassette - I'd like to find one or two units that support all tapes (including metal) that have superior quality sound. The parts that are likely to need replacing should also be of a standard size that I'll be able to find new stock for years to come. This might be a tall order, but maybe manufacturing tech will advance so that I can order up something custom at a reasonable cost in the future.
• DAT - I'm still undecided on this one. If something nice lands in my lap that'll be a different story, but it won't be a high priority.
• MiniDisc - HiMD, MDLP, and NetMD. I'm trying to resist getting older non-MDLP units for preservation purposes, but I have to admit I'm currently bidding on something and my justification is "it'll be awesome for playback of my prerecorded music MDs".
• CD/DVD/BluRay Family - multiple formats: SACD,DVD Audio, and related formats - What I'd like to know is if current manufacturers are still supporting SACD and DVD Audio. One of my self-directives is to get the latest, highest-quality unit any particular format can support and that I can afford.
• Vinyl - maybe. Like reel-to-reel there are plenty of people supporting this already. I may just get one of those USB units "just in case".

Edited July 3, 2009 by narp

[ozpeter]

DCC? I stlll have a DCC deck.

[Abby Normal]

I think it's possible I've heard of it before I googled it just now. According to what I've read, it didn't have very much market share. My grand plan is to have the capability to access likely media formats that might pop up now and again in someone's attic, etc. I'm not supporting wax cylinders either.

DCC? I stlll have a DCC deck.

Edited July 5, 2009 by narp

[brian10161]

umm... wtf?

[Sony_Fan]

Despite all our love for MD, the article isn't completely off the wall. For me, at least, MD's size and features offset what I have to admit is indeed reduced SQ. Not as reduced as cassette, of course, but pretty aptly described by "near-CD." How near to CD it is seems to vary. Mostly close enough for me. Furthermore, "today's" MD sounds a lot better than the MD of even 10 years ago.

What I really don't get, and never have, is how the anti-MD crowd can think MP3 is so superior. One lossy format is OK and another isn't? How does that add up!

In terms of sound quality, MP3 is not superior to ATRAC and MD. But 99.9% of digital music players out there support MP3, and you can't say the same for ATRAC. This is why iPod took off, because it immediately supported MP3s and didn't try to push their own comression codecs as much as Sony did. Today, people only care about how many songs can they fit into their iPods, instead of how well can they make their music sound. I'm still have high hopes for the new Sony Touchscreen Music player that should support ATRAC and ofcourse, MP3.

[sfbp]

I'm still have high hopes for the new Sony Touchscreen Music player that should support ATRAC and ofcourse, MP3.

REALLY???? There's a current Sony product that still plays ATRAC? From what I can see they are systematically withdrawing it from the feature list of all consumer products. Eg. in another thread I noted that it is gone from Car headunits as of 2009.

Unless of course they quietly support it but carefully omit it from the feature list.

It always bugged me that none of my Sony-made CD players for the home will play ATRAC CD's, either. At least the MXD-D400 plays MP3's.

[Sony_Fan]

REALLY???? There's a current Sony product that still plays ATRAC? From what I can see they are systematically withdrawing it from the feature list of all consumer products. Eg. in another thread I noted that it is gone from Car headunits as of 2009.

Unless of course they quietly support it but carefully omit it from the feature list.

It always bugged me that none of my Sony-made CD players for the home will play ATRAC CD's, either. At least the MXD-D400 plays MP3's.

I'm assuming that the new Sony touchscreen music player will support ATRAC. It also features simple drag and drop music files through windows explorer. My PS3 is less than a month old, and it imports and playsback ATRAC. They may include ATRAC, but just not push it or force users to use it.

[Arr-Nine-Hundred]

In terms of sound quality, MP3 is not superior to ATRAC and MD. But 99.9% of digital music players out there support MP3, and you can't say the same for ATRAC. This is why iPod took off, because it immediately supported MP3s and didn't try to push their own comression codecs as much as Sony did. Today, people only care about how many songs can they fit into their iPods, instead of how well can they make their music sound. I'm still have high hopes for the new Sony Touchscreen Music player that should support ATRAC and ofcourse, MP3.

I recently decided to look at the latest Sony MP3 players again and I compared someones Sony NWZ-S6393 player with my Sony N510. I listened to several MP3's at approx 160kbs quality. While the MP3 player certainly sounded better than my 4th Gen iPod Nano it fell short enough of the minidisc for me to still be satisfied with the format. Both SP and LP2 tracks in my minidisc sounded more "spacious" and more "stereo", just more livelier and less dull than the MP3 player. I'd like to compare against the new Sony X-series mp3 players as they claim to have a lot of sound enhancement stuff built-in.

[Kilroy]

Hey everyone, get a load of this !

http://www.pcmag.com/slideshow_viewer/0,12...po%253D4,00.asp

This article does not surprise me. I can remember all the analog folks that were against the CD format. Like anything, you will have people who are for it and people who are against it. Life goes on.

[Odyssey]

Part of this is Sony's fault. They should have marketed MD for its <i>recording capabilities</i>, not as a replacement for CD's. That created a huge amount of prejudice against the format in the American market.

[Odyssey]

<!--quoteo(post=144204:date=Jul 2 2009, 11:01 PM:name=tekdroid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tekdroid @ Jul 2 2009, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=144204"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->" Despite its ultimate failure, the MiniDisc did plenty of damage as the first medium to represent a degradation in audio quality, rather than an improvement, over what came before it."

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Just another amusing article filled with self-serving links to other articles on their own site, masquerading as informative.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Despite all our love for MD, the article isn't completely off the wall. For me, at least, MD's size and features offset what I have to admit is indeed reduced SQ. Not as reduced as cassette, of course, but pretty aptly described by "near-CD." How near to CD it is seems to vary. Mostly close enough for me. Furthermore, "today's" MD sounds a lot better than the MD of even 10 years ago.

What I really don't get, and never have, is how the anti-MD crowd can think MP3 is so superior. One lossy format is OK and another isn't? How does that add up!

I have found articles that have stated that the MD is a near match, sound wise, to the CD. It did make the observation that there may be some degration due to the encryption, but in most cases you need equipment to find it on a good recording.

I find that true also. If you record from a poor music source, the recording is affected as well. Kinda like garbage in, garbage out. The encryption can amplify any poor recordings noises.

If you use an excellant music source, the MD recording will be excellant, as I always comment, near CD Quality. And of course don't forget, WE MD USERS have UNLIMITED storage.

There are a lot more noisy music sources, like the IPUD, that should get some accurate revues. But there are a lot of statements from people who just have no clue, or are partnered with opposing equipment companies ( $$$ ), that want the MD do be scorned to bring more buyers to their product. As my dentist has said, The advertisers, reviewers and reporters can say anything they want to, few are made to PROVE what they say is true. Freedom of speech allows this.

Face it. The people that know how excellant the md sound quality is and enjoy the editing abilities and portabilities of the MD units know they are a great product. The Naive have taken to the articles and followed what they read as gospel with very little research to see whether these articles are accurate or not.

You know this to be true as a MD user.

Can you imagine, how much music you could get on a CD, if they would use the MD encryption to record on the CD???? But then that would hurt cd sales so I DIDn't Say that.

As for supporting one noisy product over another, it is two fold. Cost is cheap for the IPUD. There is not much quaility in them, they are produced by chip placing machines. There is very little human intervention during production so it is cheap to make.

The other is people are naive and believe what they hear and read. If someone told you a pile of poop was worth its weight in gold, SOMEBODY is going to believe it and start collecting POOP.

Same thing applies in advertising and so called equipment reviews.

The MD had a good run and Those of us lucky enough to get involved with them know the great quality that the MD supports. No one has to tell us, we enjoy it every day we use the MD. We will most likely use them until we run out of discs or a better technology is invented. For me, it won't be the IPUD.