Was MiniDisc shot down deliberately?

[md user]

I've now been really enjoying MDs for about a year. It has come as a surprise then, that when reading around the internet old articles &c., that MiniDisc was not really that well received (except in Japan).

In fact, I've come across numerous chat forum threads (elsewhere) where some were openly hostile to the format (in favour of mp3 or ogg &c.) - suggesting it has nasty artifacts &c. (Then I read articles from others and some Hi-Fi mags where they were encouraged.)

Now, with hindsight, knowing how good or bad the format became, WAS THE MINIDISC CONCEPT BADLY TREATED (AND DELIBERATELY SO)? If so, why?

(Just would like to know, as I didn't go thru' that period of debate. e,g, I keep recording DVB-T radio broadcasts, and they aren't as good as MD to my ears - and yet mp3 was not maligned like MD!)

Just a wonder, and to know your views!

mdmad.

[Avrin]

What really prevented MiniDisc from becoming a universally used audio media is the impossibility to make unlimited and unchanged digital copies the way you like (no transcoding/SCMS control). This would have made a huge difference. And then, when computer connections were being developed, SONY should have persuaded Dolby to let them use the SP codec on a PC to make copying/editing even more convenient. None of this was ever done. Instead we had a lot of useless DRM prac and all possible limitations and glitches.

[philippeb]

What really prevented MiniDisc from becoming a universally used audio media is the impossibility to make unlimited and unchanged digital copies the way you like (no transcoding/SCMS control). This would have made a huge difference.

In 2000, there was only one relatively affordable hardware exception: the Sony double deck MDS-W1, that allowed unlimited and unchanged digital copies of SP and MONO recordings. That machine changed my life.

Sony never advertised the feature, not even in the MDS-W1 owner's manual. Suicidal nonsense.

[Avrin]

Did the deck actually allow copying, and not moving tracks?

[philippeb]

Did the deck actually allow copying, and not moving tracks?

Yes. The manual and menu state track move, but obviously, moving between different discs actually requires copying data. All you need is to eject the target disc, then (super-)undo the track delete on the source disc, and you have a perfect ATRAC domain bit-wise copy (made at 4x speed, with free defrag on the target disc).

[Avrin]

That's great! But if SONY allowed doing the same without any additional manupulations on two separate single-disc decks/portables via an ATRAC bitstream over optical, things would've been totally different.

[philippeb]

That's great! But if SONY allowed doing the same without any additional manupulations on two separate single-disc decks/portables via an ATRAC bitstream over optical, things would've been totally different.

You are right. How could Sony be so shortsighted? (sigh)

[Avrin]

They were crazy about copy protection from the very beginning. But this never stopped CD or even MD pirates. Copy control and DRM only create problems for legitimate users, even now.

[ozpeter]

It was shot in the foot at the outset - although to begin with the problems didn't seem that big a deal in comparison with the (then) advantages over anything else - but now it's died a natural death. You oouldn't imagine Sony announcing it as a new way of recording and playing back now, in comparison with the advantages of current portable recorders and players. Right now, here in Australia, the RH-1 actually costs more than the equivalent Sony micro-SDHC recorder (PCM-M10) and the discs cost about twice the price per GB than micro-SDHC media. And if you add the cost of a mic to the RH-1 (a very respectable pair is built into the M10) then the RH-1 looks seriously costly. And the MD discs are many times bigger than the tiny micro SDHC cards. And mechanical. And not drag & drop. It's probably quicker to copy stuff into the M10 via drag and drop from an mp3 PC collection than to find a physical MD disc containing the desired music and insert it in a player.

It's the end of a long path for me since the very first MD recorder that Sony made - still in the cupboard here somewhere - but I think the time has come for my the rest of my Hi-MD / MD kit to join it.

[Syrius]

Regardless of the copy protection or not (SCMS was kind of fair, IMHO), Sony NEVER bothered to advertise. How many remember seeing an ad for the MD, short of some obscure spots on MTV or the like? Don't tell me they didn't have the budget for a Super Bowl ad, ever. (Those Blue alien ads were lame. Sony sat on their laurels, and it was AFTER Apple started advertising the I-Pod or MP3 players made their debut, that they did something.)

Imagine if they had done the same for the PS1 or PS2. Sony would have sworn off the gaming market by now.

[md user]

Right, so the limitation in copying is/was one of the main obstacles.

But, I read on those old forums that the main (early) complaint was SOUND QUALITY* - and yet I, personally, just cannot find obvious faults in my MD recordings.

My wonder is, then, was there a DELIBERATE and undue criticism of the MD concept? (Or am I just not hearing the weaknesses in MD yet? )

Just wondered, now with hindsight and since 'that war has been won and lost ...', - whether the truth about MD can be told.

Regards all.

mdmad.

*one article in an Hi-Fi mag even 'proved' that 128kb/s mp3 was better than MD at SP! I mean, I consistently find the opposite to be true! (I can place a reference if required, but it is one of many.)

[PsychoPimpKiller]

I don't remember seeing many advertisements for minidisc at all either. Maybe one here or there in a magazine. Maybe a commercial on MTV, like Syrius said, but no real advertisements. I wanted to get into minidisc around the mid-90's, but it was a little too pricey at the time. I didn't get my first player/recorder until 2003. I remember going to my local mall (Monroeville Mall, where the original "Dawn of the Dead" was filmed) and seeing pre-recorded MD's for sale and thinking I would like to buy some but had no means to play them. Which, in some way, leads me to this question.

Why would a company create a completely different product, not advertise it, make it really expensive and then let it die or kill it off?

I don't know but it's a real shame that they did. No new minidisc products since 2006 tells me that it is dead, at least in their eyes but not mine.

[A440]

From the beginning, minidisc was about the most perversely designed and marketed electronic product around.

MD actually stands for My Deathwish.

It was confusing, user-unfriendly, chained to its proprietary format and hardware, stuck with awful software and, for many more years than necessary, deliberately crippled.

For a while, it was also the best inexpensive stealthy digital recorder around. Despite itself.

But look at all the workarounds.

Want to use it as a portable player? Convert your lossy mp3s to lossy ATRAC. Lost in its fantasy of proprietary software, Sony resisted mp3 playback for years after it was obvious that mp3 was the de facto standard.

Want to record loud music? You can't simply use the mic jack because the preamp overloads, so you need battery box or preamp. How many people just gave up on MD from that alone? Older NetMD's wouldn't even let you change level while recording.

Want to play back your recordings? Enjoy your headphone jack.

Want to copy your recordings to edit them? First realtime and analog only--and how many people got NetMD expecting to simply be able to upload via the USB connection that was right there on the unit? Another consumer exodus.

Then Hi-MD, and uploading to SonicStage but stuck in your computer, and then (under hacker pressure) finally convertible to .wav via multiple steps in which everything could go wrong. Still user-unfriendly--the insane internet "backup" method, which is not a backup but a permission to back up held on some Sony server (wonder if it still works). Then, without any announcement, the File Conversion Tool that makes ATRAC files portable but never exactly explains itself (though at least it's there).

The encryption in Sonic Stage is so elaborate that even Sony can't always restore a screwed-up file. Typical genius move: Everything on a Hi-MD goes into one encrypted file, not separate groups. One glitch, it's all destroyed. Even the recording that worked fine yesterday.

No wonder iPod made MD obsolete as a player: wow, it's smaller and it plays mp3s. And no wonder, now, that small flash recorders are making MD look kind of silly.

I have stacks and stacks of MD recordings. I'm keeping my RH1 and NH700 while I upload them. After that, see you on eBay. The PCM-M10 makes me wonder why I tolerated MD for so long.

[sfbp]

*one article in an Hi-Fi mag even 'proved' that 128kb/s mp3 was better than MD at SP! I mean, I consistently find the opposite to be true! (I can place a reference if required, but it is one of many.)

There are probably numerous examples of the technical press attempting to shoot down something which it didn't like, regardless of merit.

However I have this week come to the conclusion that the Second Gen Hi-MD (which I first tried only 2 weeks ago) is where Sony truly shot itself in the foot. They killed off the ability to record on standard MD's in standard MD format, in favour of MP3 playback. Ridiculous, when you consider that the NH700 and RH1 both can do all MD formats, and the RH1 can use MP3's too (actually the NH700 does MONO which is a fair tradeoff vs MP3, I think). I'm sure there were sound technical, logistical and budgetary reasons for their decision, but it was way too shortsighted and I am sure contributed to the death of MD quite handsomely. Ability to play back legacy MD's is not good enough when the format is :locked: and no way to write to those legacy formats with the latest $300 technical marvel.

(Added: the 2nd-gen HiMD series even "invented" a new AA-battery case that is incompatible with all the many many models previous. I think perhaps the same mind was behind the software changes?)

I'm trying to find why my RH910 won't write Atrac3+ to 1GB disks, and so far having no luck. Several people in the last two weeks have mentioned they just "happened" to have similar problems, and from what I know so far (the investigation continues) there isn't much to explain why. PM me if you want to contribute, I would rather do that than discuss certain gory details in public forum.

[mmp64]

From the beginning, minidisc was about the most perversely designed and marketed electronic product around.

MD actually stands for My Deathwish.

It was confusing, user-unfriendly, chained to its proprietary format and hardware, stuck with awful software and, for many more years than necessary, deliberately crippled.

For a while, it was also the best inexpensive stealthy digital recorder around. Despite itself.

But look at all the workarounds.

Want to use it as a portable player? Convert your lossy mp3s to lossy ATRAC. Lost in its fantasy of proprietary software, Sony resisted mp3 playback for years after it was obvious that mp3 was the de facto standard.

Want to record loud music? You can't simply use the mic jack because the preamp overloads, so you need battery box or preamp. How many people just gave up on MD from that alone? Older NetMD's wouldn't even let you change level while recording.

Want to play back your recordings? Enjoy your headphone jack.

Want to copy your recordings to edit them? First realtime and analog only--and how many people got NetMD expecting to simply be able to upload via the USB connection that was right there on the unit? Another consumer exodus.

Then Hi-MD, and uploading to SonicStage but stuck in your computer, and then (under hacker pressure) finally convertible to .wav via multiple steps in which everything could go wrong. Still user-unfriendly--the insane internet "backup" method, which is not a backup but a permission to back up held on some Sony server (wonder if it still works). Then, without any announcement, the File Conversion Tool that makes ATRAC files portable but never exactly explains itself (though at least it's there).

The encryption in Sonic Stage is so elaborate that even Sony can't always restore a screwed-up file. Typical genius move: Everything on a Hi-MD goes into one encrypted file, not separate groups. One glitch, it's all destroyed. Even the recording that worked fine yesterday.

No wonder iPod made MD obsolete as a player: wow, it's smaller and it plays mp3s. And no wonder, now, that small flash recorders are making MD look kind of silly.

I have stacks and stacks of MD recordings. I'm keeping my RH1 and NH700 while I upload them. After that, see you on eBay. The PCM-M10 makes me wonder why I tolerated MD for so long.

All of the features/challenges that you reference are essentially true - and so far over the head of the average consumer. Lots of people can't even figure out how to use iTunes - (i.e., that you have to rip a CD first, then copy the files it creates to your iPod). I'm a geek, so I loved all of the insanely over-engineered nonsense of the MD. But Joe Sixpack was completely lost. I personally think that the real death of MD was the NetMD MP3 issue - when they put "MP3" in giant letters on the box, yet the device did not play MP3s. If they had done two things - 1st - let users drag and drop MP3s to the discs, and 2nd - made Simple Burner an integrated part of SS, or promoted the ability to rip directly to MD more - they would have been much better off. The whole concept of the units "supporting" MP3 was so absurd. Even to this day - when you read descriptions of units for sale on eBay - people STILL don't get it.

[md user]

It was shot in the foot at the outset ...

MD actually stands for My Deathwish.

So, do we all conclude that the Minidisc concept was a victim of its own failings, rather than a deliberate agenda against Sony/Minidisc, for example? [i.e. Not shot-down, but crashed by 'pilot error'!]

My 'research' so far is that the original SP standard, as reached by Atrac 3.0, IS hi-fi standard, and needed no further fidelity (i.e. transparent) for the MASSES. So, it should have replaced the Compact Cassette[CC] - as was its ORIGINAL purpose.

Sony et al only had a limited time-window [2000-2004] to establish MD as the public digital standard for audio, and then to drop the ordinary discs when solid-state storage became prevalent above 512MB. Having Atrac as the standard would then have enabled them to take command of online music distribution instead of iTunes.

Now, with high bandwidth broadband, and HiMD discs, was Sony et al 'distracted' by formats below 292kbit/s? All of which compromised quality - ammunition for criticism; and to then fail to make EASY FOR THE MASSES that which was most important: putting the music on the machine!

Was the fear of copying - to protect the music distribution empire [much larger than the' machine empire'] - that which caused all the problems? After all, can we not copy iTunes around? Yet still iTunes makes money! In fact, if Sony had enabled optical out on all machines [without restriction] at SP-mode, copying would have been easy for NORMAL USE - and the fear for music sales irrelevant since after the 3rd generation quality begins to lose fidelity anyway - exactly like CC for the last 40 years! They could also have enabled the generation-degradation in NetMD/USB download - as long as IT WAS EASY.

It seems to me, the RUSH TO THE MARKET actually LOST them the pre-eminence!

Something for management schools methinks!

My Deathwish, by a shot to the foot, indeed!

My 2cents; no 1cent's worth!

Regards all,

mdmad

[Hungerdunger]

Surely a lot of the problem was the price. You could get a cassette walkman for less than 20ukp several years ago, but IIRC, even the cheapest MD portable was well over 100ukp, while the RH1 originally retailed here at 250ukp. Luckily I've always been in a good enough financial position to afford MD, but it would have had to be much more affordable before it became acceptable for the mass market.

And of course MP3 players have also become much cheaper. I could buy an 8Gb Sansa Clip+ with an SD expansion slot (which consistently gets good reviews) for around 50ukp, so unless you're into live recording, how many people would be prepared to pay more than twice that for a basic MD player/recorder?

[md user]

Surely a lot of the problem was the price. You could get a cassette walkman for less than 20ukp several years ago, but IIRC, even the cheapest MD portable was well over 100ukp, ...

Totally agree, they did need to become as 'cheap as chips' by, say, 2004 (in the ORIGINAL format) - essential to get Atrac as the de-facto standard. [The technology costs had matured by then?]

Does this reinforce their mistake? [Concentrating on Atrac3, Atrac3+ and Hi-MD format development instead of CHEAPER SP-minidiscs and solid-states flooding the market.]

I dunno, just a wonder ...

Regards,

mdmad.

[mmp64]

Totally agree, they did need to become as 'cheap as chips' by, say, 2004 (in the ORIGINAL format) - essential to get Atrac as the de-facto standard. [The technology costs had matured by then?]

Does this reinforce their mistake? [Concentrating on Atrac3, Atrac3+ and Hi-MD format development instead of CHEAPER SP-minidiscs and solid-states flooding the market.]

I dunno, just a wonder ...

Regards,

mdmad.

They tried that a little later with the "Psych" and other Downloaders - but it was too late, and those were cheap and in many cases, ugly. It would have made sense a couple of years earlier to differentiate between high end and low end.

Not sure about not developing HiMD. When you think about the cost of a 1 GB flash drive vs. a 1 GB HiMD disc - the case was fairly compelling. But again, by that time, it was probably too late. Also - the differences between Standard MD, NetMD and HiMD and all of the various permutations of bit rates was probably way beyond the comprehension of the average consumer.

Another thing they did wrong around the time of HiMD was default to HiLP as the standard Codec. A lot of people never make changes to those settings because they don't know how - and despite Sony's fantasys, HiLP was not better than 128 MP3 or particularly 128 AAC - the standard on iPods. Really not even close for Pop and Rock music.

[bluecrab]

No doubt Sony could have improved their marketing of MD. Relatively expensive and somewhat complex to use (think of your average person, not those of us here), they never quite caught on in the U.S. And they came out right around when MP3 started to look attractive to a lot of people who liked the integration of music with their PCs. Nonetheless, I consider Minidisc to be a true marvel of technology and an awesome feat of engineering. Perhaps that's the true crime...that such a device was apparently bungled so badly.

My own involvement with audio far pre-dates the advent of the personal computer. I can remember when the now-lowly cassette seemed like something of a "miracle cure." I kind of came to MD by chance. I was deciding whether advance from cassette to one of CD-R, DAT, or MD. I researched, I made calls, I asked questions. In the end, one day I just tired of the whole thing and simply went with [legacy] MD. Truly I have not regretted this. I'm also using CD-R - have been for some time - and play around a bit with iTunes, but in the end, I like MD and intend to hang with it as long as practical.

Really a shame that it never blossomed.

[mmp64]

My own involvement with audio far pre-dates the advent of the personal computer. I can remember when the now-lowly cassette seemed like something of a "miracle cure." I kind of came to MD by chance. I was deciding whether advance from cassette to one of CD-R, DAT, or MD. I researched, I made calls, I asked questions. In the end, one day I just tired of the whole thing and simply went with [legacy] MD. Truly I have not regretted this. I'm also using CD-R - have been for some time - and play around a bit with iTunes, but in the end, I like MD and intend to hang with it as long as practical.

Really a shame that it never blossomed.

Yes, I started making mix tapes in about 1977, and really stuck with cassettes until 2000 or so, or whenever I bought my first MD. Even though it was cumbersome (the 37) and did not integrate with a PC, it was magic compared with cassette. I was amazed by the ability to re-order, delete and edit tracks. In fact, when I first heard about NetMD, I didn't get it. Why would you want to use a computer?

[freddyjollo]

No - it just suffered from being the first compressed music format & portable that was publicly visible, at a time when people thought in terms of Cds & were just discovering uncompressed "bit perfect" CDRs that lacked any copy protection that could also play in their car players. There were lots of free cd rippers that did the job fast. I remember at the time all the fuss about the evils of compression. I remember some people declared that minidisc couldnt work as the level of engineering couldnt be rolled out on a mass production level. The difference between Md & CDR was not large enough in the first place - just SP mode- and had all the disadavantages of getting new hard ware at very high price! It therefore failed in the US market & as a result a whole generation closed its mind to that type of thing until the Apple buzz & MP3. By that time it was getting a bit long in the tooth with better solutions appearing.

I dont think Sony etc were to blame - they were pioneers charting new territory & also had the problem of having a finger in the music business. Remember Philip's Digital Cassette, a competitor that was supposed to be half way house between analogue cassette & digital, that failed so fast? In fact I am surprised Sony held out for as long as they did. These days we all accept compression, & drm of some kind.

I still love my rather weathered Sharp MT88 - I marvel at its solid aluminium body that is still going strong after 6 years; my needs are modest & its good enough for me. I ll probbably be buried with it, wearing a pair of earphones lol. Something for the archaelogoists to ponder over in a thousand years time heheh.

[BIGHMW]

I still use MiniDisc (and to some extent Hi-MD just not as much as I used to) at home, in studio, and also in my rides, and as much as my management wants me to "keep up with the times" and get an (rival player censored), iDon't (spelled that way intentionally) think so...... I have THE best alternative to those other MP3 players, and that is my 3 (that's right, count it, 3) NW-HD5 Network Walkmen.

Now I know what some will say, "20 gigs? Oh, that's nothing compared to my (rival player censored)", but I've got news for them, at least MY HD5 allows me to work with my many MD's/Hi-MD's in SonicStage in conjunction with my 3 RH1's and SonicStage CP 4.2

Now many of you already know about the ATRAC/SonicStage-compatbility of both the RH1 and HD5, and because of it I can use my RH1 to load my MD's onto SS CP 4.2 and then from there onto my HD5, and the SQ is SO much better than anything an (rival player consored) can ever put out.

As for the SCMS/DRM issues with Sony, I felt they (Sony) were pressured by both the RIAA and others to cease production of both the MD/Hi-MD players and their respective blank media, because they KNOW that most of us on this forum already own either an M-AUDIO CO-3 SCMS override box, or a professional series MD or CD recorder, which BTW does not recognize nor encode SCMS or any other copyguard out there.

For those of us who still use (and enjoy) MD and Hi-MD, I suggest an all-out assault of eBay and whatever sites out there, in order to gather up the remaining stock of MD's (and their players/recorders and accessories, especially the RH1/M200) ASAP, so then that way, when Sony shuts us out and we have our full stock of car/home/pro/portable units and media that we on this board can call ourselves an (almost) exclusive club in which members would sware under oath to uphold the integrity of the format and its codec with our battle cry of these three simple words......."ATRAC OR DEATH!!!"

[sfbp]

our battle cry of these three simple words......."ATRAC OR DEATH!!!"

Actually, we don't need MD's to do so, as I have just proven. My HTPC setup with all the ATRAC titles that came from MD (or CD, for that matter) shows just how excellent the ATRAC format is.

However it's a little tricky - you probably want to get an HTPC that has HDMI so you can do video as well as audio. And there may be some minor problems with non-support of NetMD format (well, LP2 and LP4 and SP) if you don't run XP, either as a copy hosted under 64-bit Windows, or as the real thing (what I did).

Tricky, because your system needs to be new enough to have HDMI in it, but old enough to run XP.

But it will be a long time before I can fill up a couple of 1TB Sata drives with ATRAC formatted sound. Better solution than most; why? because the MD recording bit reallocation (Type-R) is probably important to the quality of these recordings. Yes, maybe SonicStage will actually achieve this when ripping, but at least I know that the MD recordings made from various analog sources will be as good as they could be, since they get transferred up in digital form unaltered to the HTPC.

[md user]

... . My HTPC setup .... the HTPC.

HTPC??? H* to PC ?

Sorry, I'm not up with this new lingo :-)

HTPC??? H* to PC ?

Sorry, I'm not up with this new lingo :-)

Just guessed HDMI to PC ?

Please confirm.

Ta.

[md user]

....

For those of us who still use (and enjoy) MD and Hi-MD, I suggest an all-out assault of eBay and whatever sites out there, in order to gather up the remaining stock of MD's (and their players/recorders and accessories, especially the RH1/M200) ASAP, so then that way, when Sony shuts us out and we have our full stock of car/home/pro/portable units and media that we on this board can call ourselves an (almost) exclusive club in which members would sware under oath to uphold the integrity of the format and its codec with our battle cry of these three simple words......."ATRAC OR DEATH!!!"

And sign together in blood ...

Really? I mean do you know how many units were sold?

Fact is, like Compact Cassette, LPs, VHS &c., they will all be in charity shops and ebay eventually.

You won't need to buy them up - just buy them as you need them.

Like it as we may, we are in the old (better?) ways.

Soon, the iPod will be copied by Chinese &c., and sold for peanuts - the money is in the music downloading. After all, this is what Sony was looking for all along with MDs, just that it didn't take off.

I get your point, though, we need to stick together - being out of their customer profile - like banished exiles

It's access to recordings that will be key, not the units themselves - you can record onto any mp3 player using PC.

Still, I'm with you: ATRAC OR DEATH! (to the infidels) <- [just a joke in case somebody thinks I'm being political .. . ]

[sfbp]

Home Theater PC. Suggest you visit avsforum (don't confuse with avforum), for example this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=26

Stephen

(did you ever get hold of loque?)

[md user]

However it's a little tricky - you probably want to get an HTPC that has HDMI so you can do video as well as audio.

since they get transferred up in digital form unaltered to the HTPC.

Is S/PDIF not as good?

Regards,

mdmad.

[sfbp]

S/PDIF is fine, but HDMI does everything that SP/DIF does and a lot more, it seems. To be absolutely specific, I found that my HDMI port will output 44.1kHz from Sonic Stage (whereas the S/PDIF toslink socket was limited to 48 and 96), in addition to all the video. I was rather surprised! I also "caught" it outputting 192 kHz at times.

I read somewhere that many "SP/DIF" sound cards will resample to 48Khz, and the result may be fine on raw PCM, but is absolutely horrid with compressed music, for reasons you will appreciate when you consider how that must work.